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GoW General CRT IV: The Quest for Mental Therapy

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KLOL506

KLOL506

He/Him
VS Battles
Retired
32,835
38,108

Introduction​

Yeah, this ain't ending anytime soon. We still have a long way to go before we become residents of Valhalla to receive therapy from Tyr.

Abilities and Resistances​


Scaling​

  • Drakes are considered to be tenfold stronger than normal dragons in Norse GoW, which are already considered to be God-level opponents (AKA Ares level). Ragnarok Kratos is able to demolish Drakes with fair ease. Brother Kings would be comparable, but slightly less than this because… well… GoW3 Kratos handily guts them (Whom we consider to be equal to Ragnarok Kratos)
  • Ymir gets a supporting Infinite speed feat for spanning as large as Yggdrasil (As his blood threatened to flood all of creation)
  • Athena finally gets solid scaling to Ares via Bruno Velazquez’s statement (Sources 1 and 2) that she is as strong as the combined might of many Olympians, putting her above the rest of her kin save for Ares, that and she downscales from End-of-II Kratos for being able to temporarily hold him back (She wasn't trying to hurt him anyways)
  • Gaia’s Range gets upgraded to Low Complex Multiversal as she’d have similar range as her Primordial kin and can follow Kratos across anywhere in Greece even when he is in another hyper-timeline (More details here), plus the Magic stuff that permeates through pantheons and is 5D in nature.

Miscellaneous​

  • The Great Evils section should be added to the God of War Magic System Explanation Page to make it more official, as we have done away with the practice of using Explanation Blogs entirely across the wiki.
  • The whole “Gods become weaker and cease to exist if prayers for them are ceased” section in the Empowerment description for the Greek Gods should be removed entirely, as neither Athena nor the other Gods were ever actually inundated by such an event, it was merely just Kratos theorizing about beings he had little to no understanding or comprehension about.
  • Garm’s Immunity to Soul Magic gets changed to Resistance, as one can still imbue souls into him to change his nature (Like Atreus).

Agree: 14 (7 staff members) - KingTempest (Seems to have issues with the Athena stuff), Planck69, Emirp_sumitpo, Theglassman12, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Elizhaa, chosen, Eseseso, SYPHe5D, BlastX, Georredannea15, Hasty12345, Spectra_Schiffer

Disagree: 0 -

Neutral: 1 - Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
 
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For athena I don't think "as strong as many" means "that she is as strong as the combined might of many Olympians", more like "she's on the level of many of the olympians"

Everything here here is good
 
KLOL506 said:

Introduction​

Yeah, this ain't ending anytime soon. We still have a long way to go before we become residents of Valhalla to receive therapy from Tyr.
Click to expand...
Valhalla CRT when?
KLOL506 said:

Abilities and Resistances​

  • Hades gets his Soul-based hax (Basic Divine Magic and Souls of Hades magic) and Absorption hax as passive as per him passively absorbing souls from the River Styx (GoW3). The artbook of GoW3 also re-affirms this notion.
  • Hades gets Disease Manipulation via his necrotic Arms (GoW2 Brady Guide Page 226).
  • Freya gets Resistance to Bifrost Magic, as all gods (Irrespective of their pantheons) are able to resist their own innate basic magics (As we concluded in this CRT), as well as weather multiple attacks from Nidhogg, Odin and Gna. She would also get resistance to Vanir Magic due to again, Gods resisting their innate base magics and the Vanir themselves not being inundated by their own magics toying with time for fun.
    • Because of the above reasoning, Freyr should get resistance to Bifrost and Vanir Magics as well.
  • All Gods should get resistance to Divine Magics/Runic Magics (plus any other innate base magic listed alongside that) as per the prior Magic CRT, which would link to the General Abilities section of the GoW Magic Page (And to the respective innate base magics they wield, like Bifrost, Vanir, Seidr, Hadean Energy and so on).
  • Bodily Weaponry for all Valkyries, as they can shoot bladed feathers from their wings, or simply use said wings to slice through whatever they see in front of them. Rip them out, and they die (As they’re an integral part of their body and ripping them out causes severe external and internal damage to them)
  • Heimdall and Nidhogg get resistance to the abilities of the Blades of Chaos and the Leviathan Axe for being able to withstand hits from them.
  • Gna should get resistance to the following:
    • Bifrost Magic: Since Gods are able to resist their own innate base magics and because she can take hits from Dodher’s Glaive (Chakram Bifrosts)
    • Seidr Magic: As she can withstand hits from the Hilt of Dainsleif
    • Vanir Magic: As she can withstand her own electric powers being reflected back at her by Kratos, and because Gods are able to resist their own innate base magics
  • Bifrost Magic grants Resistance to Void Manipulation and Existence Erasure, as Nidhogg and the Valkyries traverse the Realm Between Realms without issue due to that and can even chill within Realm Tears with ease.
  • Mid Regen for Zeus, as he survived having Athena clawed out of his head when she was born (GoW1 Prima Guide Page 49 and GoW3 Ultimate Brady Guide Page 135).
  • Immortality Types 4, 7 and 8 Negation for the Flames of Olympus, as it will kill all those who touch it, God or Mortal, and this would undeniably include the fodder undead like Legionnaires (Which can also resurrect), and via being superior to the Fires of Olympus, which can nullify curse-reliant immortalities like that of Prometheus.
  • Additional justification for Wraiths being incorporeal (GoW Ragnarok Valhalla)
  • Heimdall gets Space-Time Manipulation Nullification for being able to completely nullify the effects of Realm Shift (While only the Hilt of Hofud is long enough to trigger the dialogue with Heimdall in NG+, even in the original base game if you equip yourself with Realm Shift armor pieces, the effects will be nullified immediately by him without any dialogue because they don't last as long as the Hilt) (GoW Ragnarok)
  • Some more info about Soul Stuff in GoW (Some advice on how to integrate this into the GoW Magic Page would be appreciated)
  • A section for Greek God Physiology/Greek Godhood in the GoW Magic Page, which would have the following abilities as standard for all Greek Gods (Primordials, Titans, Olympians alike)
  • The Blade of Olympus’s AP description should be rectified as something that normally acts as a conduit to channel godly powers through itself and only absorbing other people's powers when they allow themselves to (As otherwise the absorption happens from the wielder's side where they may absorb life force from their foes using the Blade). So “higher depending on whose energy it absorbs” would be changed to “higher depending on the wielder”.
  • Surtr should have resistance to your typical Soul Manip CM1 abilities, as is able to easily resist the effects of Soul Eaters, since he used them for his training Gauntlets as seen when he summons them to fight Kratos and Atreus in Ragnarok.
  • Life Manipulation for Light Elf Magic and Light of Alfheim (The Light gave and made brand new life on all of Alfheim)

Scaling​

  • Drakes are considered to be tenfold stronger than normal dragons in Norse GoW, which are already considered to be God-level opponents (AKA Ares level). Ragnarok Kratos is able to demolish Drakes with fair ease. Brother Kings would be comparable, but slightly less than this because… well… GoW3 Kratos handily guts them (Whom we consider to be equal to Ragnarok Kratos)
  • Ymir gets a supporting Infinite speed feat for spanning as large as Yggdrasil (As his blood threatened to flood all of creation)
  • Athena finally gets solid scaling to Ares via Bruno Velazquez’s statement (Sources 1 and 2) that she is as strong as the combined might of many Olympians, putting her above the rest of her kin save for Ares
  • Gaia’s Range gets upgraded to Low Complex Multiversal as she’d have similar range as her Primordial kin and can follow Kratos across anywhere in Greece even when he is in another hyper-timeline (More details here), plus the Magic stuff that permeates through pantheons and is 5D in nature.

Miscellaneous​

  • The Great Evils section should be added to the God of War Magic System Explanation Page to make it more official, as we have done away with the practice of using Explanation Blogs entirely across the wiki.
  • The whole “Gods become weaker and cease to exist if prayers for them are ceased” section in the Empowerment description for the Greek Gods should be removed entirely, as neither Athena nor the other Gods were ever actually inundated by such an event, it was merely just Kratos theorizing about beings he had little to no understanding or comprehension about.
  • Garm’s Immunity to Soul Magic gets changed to Resistance, as one can still imbue souls into him to change his nature (Like Atreus).
Click to expand...
All looks good to me.

To be sure, the Sisters of Fate would be getting that Greek God Physiology stuff too, right?
 
KingTempest said:
For athena I don't think "as strong as many" means "that she is as strong as the combined might of many Olympians", more like "she's on the level of many of the olympians"
Click to expand...
She still backscales from End-of-GoW2 Kratos via holding him back somewhat (And she wasn't trying to kill him anyway), the Bruno stuff would effectively mean we wouldn't have to stumble about in the dark regarding scaling to Ares anymore. That being said, I'll wait for Planck to elaborate further.
 
Mid regen for Zeus is a bit iffy in my opinion, Considering that those statements from the Guidebook usually refer to the mythology and its rather unclear when it comes to this being canoized into the actual lore.
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
Mid regen for Zeus is a bit iffy in my opinion, Considering that those statements from the Guidebook usually refer to the mythology and its rather unclear when it comes to this being canoized into the actual lore.
Click to expand...
Unless actual contradictions come into play within the games themselves, the statements can be used. Secondary canon and all that.
 
When I die 10 times in Valhalla and start all over again, my mental health...
nejat-isler-yumurta.gif

Anyway... Agree with the OP.
 
I'm not sure I'm comfortable granting type 2 AE based on a twitter statement, but the rest seems fine.
 
Already went over this and it does indeed make sense.

KingTempest said:
For athena I don't think "as strong as many" means "that she is as strong as the combined might of many Olympians", more like "she's on the level of many of the olympians"

Everything here here is good
Click to expand...
I can see how that can be interpreted that way honestly. Granted, at that point in time she downscales from End-of-II Kratos, whose currently accepted as being over 2x stronger than Ares and in the level of Hades, so she can also use that for her direct scaling to Ares.

Hasty12345 said:
I'm not sure I'm comfortable granting type 2 AE based on a twitter statement, but the rest seems fine.
Click to expand...
First off, the ability is already accepted, this is just adding it to the Magic Page. Second, that doesn't really address anything (is the WoG invalid, contradicted, etc.?) Three, I'm unsure why that's the only scan on the thread for it given proven other showcases of embodiment (Gods being everpresent throughout his domain and stabilising them as shown in God of War III, Clotho being Creation itself as stated in the II novelizations, etc.)
 
Planck69 said:
First off, the ability is already accepted, this is just adding it to the Magic Page. Second, that doesn't really address anything (is the WoG invalid, contradicted, etc.?) Three, I'm unsure why that's the only scan on the thread for it given proven other showcases of embodiment (Gods being everpresent throughout his domain and stabilising them as shown in God of War III, Clotho being Creation itself as stated in the II novelizations, etc.)
Click to expand...
If it's already accepted then that's fine, I was just hesitant to agree to something like that based on the two scans in the CRT, they aren't the best evidence.
 
Hades gets Disease Manipulation via his necrotic Arms (GoW2 Brady Guide Page 226).
Click to expand...
Being described as "disease-blackened" just means the arms themselves are diseased, not that Hades or the arms can inflict diseases on others.
Size Manipulation, Invisibility and Shapeshifting: All Greek Gods can change size, become invisible or take shape of various objects and beings in their vicinity (GoW1 Novel Chapter 4)
Click to expand...
There is no evidence of shapeshifting in this scan.
Immortality Types 4, 7 and 8 Negation for the Flames of Olympus, as it will kill all those who touch it, God or Mortal, and this would undeniably include the fodder undead like Legionnaires (Which can also resurrect), and via being superior to the Fires of Olympus, which can nullify curse-reliant immortalities like that of Prometheus.
Click to expand...
This feels highly specualtive. "Yeah it can totally nullify this immortality because uhhhh, it just Should" is not a particularly compelling piece of evidence. The fact that the text specifies "god or mortal" would also imply it excludes undead by default, seeing as they are neither. Also, in what way are the Flames of Olympus superior to the Fires of Olympus? There should be some basis for scaling hax in this manner, since you can't really rely on statements like "superior to", so some context would be nice.

That aside, I feel like Prometheus dying to the Fires of Olympus has less to do with the fire innately negging immortality and more to do with Prometheus being the one who stole them, but that's admittedly not something I can prove

I have other issues, but they're so steeped in other verse mechanics that I would rather not get into them. Not right now, anyways.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Being described as "disease-blackened" just means the arms themselves are diseased, not that Hades or the arms can inflict diseases on others.

There is no evidence of shapeshifting in this scan.

This feels highly specualtive. "Yeah it can totally nullify this immortality because uhhhh, it just Should" is not a particularly compelling piece of evidence. The fact that the text specifies "god or mortal" would also imply it excludes undead by default, seeing as they are neither. Also, in what way are the Flames of Olympus superior to the Fires of Olympus? There should be some basis for scaling hax in this manner, since you can't really rely on statements like "superior to", so some context would be nice.

That aside, I feel like Prometheus dying to the Fires of Olympus has less to do with the fire innately negging immortality and more to do with Prometheus being the one who stole them, but that's admittedly not something I can prove

I have other issues, but they're so steeped in other verse mechanics that I would rather not get into them. Not right now, anyways.
Click to expand...
Prometheus was cursed to come back to life every time the Eagle gored him. And the fires were the only thing that could kill him so I'm not sure where the speculation is there.

The "excludes undead" argument is honestly quite silly since in-universe the point is that no one can touch the Flame of Olympus without being killed and if that didn't include the undead, then Athena and Kratos would have a plethora of ways around that. To say nothing of how it invalidates Pandora's whole existence and plotline.

The same Fires of Perdition that killed Prometheus could be taken in and wielded by Kratos without issue. The same could not be said for the Flame of Olympus.

Edit: The Hades and shape-shifting can be handled by others, since I don't have my PC immediately handy.
 
Planck69 said:
Prometheus was cursed to come back to life every time the Eagle gored him. And the fires were the only thing that could kill him so I'm not sure where the speculation is there.
Click to expand...
That wasn't the part I was saying was speculative. My issue with Prometheus is that it's being assumed that the fires just happen to have this innate immortality-negating property, when it seems to me like it being the only thing able to kill him is a specific condition of his curse; After all, his immortality is a curse specifically because he stole the fires, so it would be fitting if they were the only things that could end his torment. It's not exactly the same, but it's a bit similar to seeing a vampire being killed with a wooden stake and assuming that all wooden stakes negate immortality, when most people would assume that vampires are just very specifically weak to wooden stakes.
Planck69 said:
The "excludes undead" argument is honestly quite silly since in-universe the point is that no one can touch the Flame of Olympus without being killed and if that didn't include the undead, then Athena and Kratos would have a plethora of ways around that. To say nothing of how it invalidates Pandora's whole existence and plotline.
Click to expand...
How does it invalidate Pandora's existence? I'm just asking for proof of what you're claiming, since again, I do not believe "it should be able to do that because it just should" is solid evidence. If the Flames of Olympus are used to kill an undead being, or are stated to be capable of doing so, then I'd have no issues with the proposal.

Taking statements like "can kill anything" and immediately assuming this includes immortal beings who reasonably cannot be killed is, to me, a little irresponsible. I could take a lot of similar statements from my own verse and use those to give everyone every type of immortality negation under the sun, but I wouldn't act on those statements without more context regarding how far they actually extend, since a lot of times the author doesn't account for immortality when writing instant-kill mechanisms into their series.
Planck69 said:
The same Fires of Perdition that killed Prometheus could be taken in and wielded by Kratos without issue. The same could not be said for the Flame of Olympus.
Click to expand...
I mean, it's clear that they're more potent, but I'm not sure how that translates to immortality negation. Kratos isn't undead or cursed to never die, so it's difficult to use him to gauge the potency of the supposed immortality negation, seeing as there's nothing to negate.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
That wasn't the part I was saying was speculative. My issue with Prometheus is that it's being assumed that the fires just happen to have this innate immortality-negating property, when it seems to me like it being the only thing able to kill him is a specific condition of his curse; After all, his immortality is a curse specifically because he stole the fires, so it would be fitting if they were the only things that could end his torment. It's not exactly the same, but it's a bit similar to seeing a vampire being killed with a wooden stake and assuming that all wooden stakes negate immortality, when most people would assume that vampires are just very specifically weak to wooden stakes.

How does it invalidate Pandora's existence? I'm just asking for proof of what you're claiming, since again, I do not believe "it should be able to do that because it just should" is solid evidence. If the Flames of Olympus are used to kill an undead being, or are stated to be capable of doing so, then I'd have no issues with the proposal.

Taking statements like "can kill anything" and immediately assuming this includes immortal beings who reasonably cannot be killed is, to me, a little irresponsible. I could take a lot of similar statements from my own verse and use those to give everyone every type of immortality negation under the sun, but I wouldn't act on those statements without more context regarding how far they actually extend, since a lot of times the author doesn't account for immortality when writing instant-kill mechanisms into their series.

I mean, it's clear that they're more potent, but I'm not sure how that translates to immortality negation. Kratos isn't undead or cursed to never die, so it's difficult to use him to gauge the potency of the supposed immortality negation, seeing as there's nothing to negate.
Click to expand...
"It would be fitting" isn't an argument though, so I dunno why you keep saying that. The novel and games give us only the following information; Prometheus is cursed by Zeus to constantly resurrect upon death after being gored and the fires kill him permanently. That's all. There's no condition revolving around the Fires that Zeus mentions when Hermes informs him of Prometheus dying. You assuming the Fires of Perdition are some weird tie-in or key to cancelling the curse is ironically enough, pure speculation and little else.

The Flame of Olympus exists purely to keep any who would wield Pandora's Box again from doing so, that it talks about gods and mortals doesn’t mean that its exclusive to them or some special loophole exists. Kratos himself understands it as "killing all who touch it" when he is talking to Helios about the Flame. I doubt he's making an exception for what constitutes the majority of Olympus' armies.

This is just using basic verse context because by your account, an Olympian sentry can bypass the Flame of Olympus at any given time. Sentries that are positioned in the same room as the Flame. The same undead that Kratos can summon at will by that point.
 
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
How does it invalidate Pandora's existence? I'm just asking for proof of what you're claiming, since again, I do not believe "it should be able to do that because it just should" is solid evidence. If the Flames of Olympus are used to kill an undead being, or are stated to be capable of doing so, then I'd have no issues with the proposal.
Click to expand...
narratively the only way kratos could have opened the chest was due to Pandora and the reason why she was needed is the flames. Meaning he can't Just ask some random undead soul or Something to get the chest which he could now that he has the Blades of hades
 
I do think that the immortality negation abilities and scaling should be clearer and sorted better but the argument that the Flame, whose entire existence in the story revolves around being untouchable, doesn't kill a very common being in the setting is quite laughable.
 
Planck69 said:
I do think that the immortality negation abilities and scaling should be clearer and sorted better but the argument that the Flame, whose entire existence in the story revolves around being untouchable, doesn't kill a very common being in the setting is quite laughable.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't that moment when Kratos dies to fear and he finds hope help with that? We see hope being intangible at the end of the game and Zeus couldn't touch it or his attacks would be reflected.
 
Planck69 said:
I mean, that's Hope not the Flame of Olympus. It's specifically described as being a far greater power than the Flame so it wouldn't fit here.
Click to expand...
I understand, the flames of Olympus are capable of burning everything, and Prometheus, who had immortality granted by Zeus, was denied by the flames, so much so that he died, wouldn't that be a better justification?
 
Fires of Perdition is the pit of flames that you drop Prometheus in after you get Typhoon’s bane from Typhoon in Gow 2.
Besides that, I agree with everything.
 
Regarding the disease part, the scan says the following:
Trapped in Hades for eternal damnation, the grotesque, diseased-blackened claws of the damned grab and tear at their prey in an effort to share their wretched misery .Kratos can temporarily keep them at bay with normal and heavy attacks however, for every claw he destroys, another quickly takes is place Thankfully. eliminating them releases Green Orbs, which replenish Kratos's Health Meter.
It literally says that the arms can inflict you with the same misery as them, which is being the disease in this context.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
There is no evidence of shapeshifting in this scan.
Click to expand...
They became as tall as the Tower of Alexandria in that scan, normally speaking they're 9ft tall. Zeus also grows to the size of the Summit of Sacrifice in GoW2's ending (Otherwise he is also just under 9ft tall). Kratos is a giant when he attacks Rhodes.

Planck69 said:
I do think that the immortality negation abilities and scaling should be clearer and sorted better but the argument that the Flame, whose entire existence in the story revolves around being untouchable, doesn't kill a very common being in the setting is quite laughable.
Click to expand...
I am open to further improvements in this section.
 
Last edited:
Planck69 said:
First off, the ability is already accepted, this is just adding it to the Magic Page. Second, that doesn't really address anything (is the WoG invalid, contradicted, etc.?) Three, I'm unsure why that's the only scan on the thread for it given proven other showcases of embodiment (Gods being everpresent throughout his domain and stabilising them as shown in God of War III, Clotho being Creation itself as stated in the II novelizations, etc.)
Click to expand...
Fixed it.
 
The new disease stuff looks good to me (Jesus the Greek gods were assholes), but I don't think Hermes's death disease killed all the remaining Greeks.

In fact Kratos giving Hope to the survivors and the Greek vase we see in GoW4 contradict this.

It did probably kill a bunch of them, though.
 
The scaling and miscellaneous stuff looks alright, don't have the time to fully go over the abilities and resistances stuff at the moment.
 
KLOL506 said:
They became as tall as the Tower of Alexandria in that scan, normally speaking they're 9ft tall. Zeus also grows to the size of the Summit of Sacrifice in GoW2's ending (Otherwise he is also just under 9ft tall). Kratos is a giant when he attacks Rhodes.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that's size manipulation, not shapeshifting. Anyways, the OP has been updated with more evidence, and the latter two examples are fine, so I've got no issue as long as the abilities are explained properly.
yall really gotta include all the evidence you have available from the start and not just add it when someone questions you
KLOL506 said:
All the Gods inflict diseases on the tribes they wager on in the 2010 comics to win the Ambrosia, which serves as a prequel to the games.
Click to expand...
I mean that's fine, but I still disagree with the arms thing.
 
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