Gotenks in Super

[Ryop]

shouldnt the fight between Gotenks SSJ3 and Base Vegeta be PIS or outilier consider that almost every character in the series(Roshi Krilin 18 Tien Base Gohan Picolo etc) able to fight with Base Vagta and Goku and not even close to get huge stomp like Gotenks?

 

[SomebodyData]

All of the fights with Base Goku would be PIS regardless of the SSJ3 Gotenks fight.

Well, not anymore actually, judging from the new episode it becomes pretty clear that Roshi, Krillin, 18, Tien, Base Gohan, Piccolo, were just Goku holding back in the fight.

 

[Ryop]

that has noting to do with hold back the fact that they can literally force him to move is enough to put them way beyond SSJ3 Gotenks,if you forgtot Gotenks cant make Vagata move inch

and that their fights is not PIS,not when this happen again and again and again

 

[Antoniofer]

Mmm, I was going to discuss this with @Dark649 first; the one that stomped Gotenks weren't a base Vegeta, if not a "Beyond God" Vegeta, but since Toei doesn't differentiate between base and BG (it seems like they even forget it exist...), did completely ruin the scaling.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I was gonna bring up this downgrade my Z-Fighters revision after the tournament but people cant seem to wait for the tournament to end.

 

[Joseph619]

Mmm, I was going to discuss this with @Dark649 first; the one that stomped Gotenks weren't a base Vegeta, if not a "Beyond God" Vegeta, but since Toei doesn't differentiate between base and BG (it seems like they even forget it exist...), did completely ruin the scaling.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist, it never existed in movie or anime. It's a video game term and has no bearing in canon dragon ball

 

[Antoniofer]

That's why the "", is what we use name the key after Goku absorbed God ki; but since Toei tend to forget than that happened, some times "base" Goku is as strong as SSG (Against Frieza in RoF, against Hit, and most likely against Gotenks since Vegeta is always as strong as Goku), but another time is just as strong as he should be.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist, it never existed in movie or anime. It's a video game term and has no bearing in canon dragon ball"

Completely false. It's literally just them turning God ki on/off. Goku still kept the power of Super Saiyan God even without losing the form as is addressed multiple times.

 

[Joseph619]

"Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist, it never existed in movie or anime. It's a video game term and has no bearing in canon dragon ball"
Completely false. It's literally just them turning God ki on/off. Goku still kept the power of Super Saiyan God even without losing the form as is addressed multiple times.

Are you referring to the two base theory? When has the anime stated that Goku can turn god ki on and off after battle of gods arc? Only Super Saiyan Blue has god ki. And saiyan beyond god absolutely doesn't exist in the anime or movie, please show us a scan where it's mentioned by name. The white aura when Goku fights Frieza in base doesn't have a name in the anime or movie.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Just because it doesn't have a name doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Joseph619]

Of course it doesn't exist. Just as pseudo ssb doesn't exist, some fans think super saiyan rage is pseudo ssb. We're trying to connect video game with canon material here. Dragon Ball wiki is largely responsible for mixing up all the different mediums of the franchise into the profiles since they believe everything that's licensed is canon. Also Goku has fought Beerus (disguise as Monaka) in base. They didn't say anything about saiyan beyond god in that episode.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

that has noting to do with hold back the fact that they can literally force him to move is enough to put them way beyond SSJ3 Gotenks,if you forgtot Gotenks cant make Vagata move inch
and that their fights is not PIS,not when this happen again and again and again

Just adding in my thoughts but Gotenks not being able to move Vegeta is different then people fighting Goku, Goku is willing to hold back and actively does at time while Vegeta, well Vegeta litterally couldn't care less.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Joseph

Stop saying that the form only exists in the games because it's only named in the games.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

either way that fight should be an outliyer do to The inconsistencies it makes later on.

 

[Joseph619]

@Joseph
Stop saying that the form only exists in the games because it's only named in the games.

Because it does, when has goku used god ki in base after battle of gods arc? God ki can't be sensed by non gods, even in RoF arc Gohan only failed to detect Goku when Goku went SSB. Also didn't Goku absorb the god ki in bog arc in his super saiya form? Not base. How is saiyan beyong god even a thing I don't understand. The two base theory was never confirmed in the anime, it's a good fan theory I admit

 

[Antoniofer]

Even if Beyond God doesn't exist, that doesn't help the scaling; a base Vegeta no selling against Gotenks is pretty inconsistent considering what happen later: it makes Piccolo, Krilin, 18, Mr Buu, apparently Roshi and Tien too far stronger than Super Boo, even Gohan when was stated that is weaker than his Cell Games self several times.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Even if Beyond God doesn't exist, that doesn't help the scaling; a base Vegeta no selling against Gotenks is pretty inconsistent considering what happen later: it makes Piccolo, Krilin, 18, Mr Buu, apparently Roshi and Tien too far stronger than Super Boo, even Gohan when was stated that is weaker than his Cell Games self several times.

exactly no matter how you slice it things aren't right

 

[Joseph619]

Even if Beyond God doesn't exist, that doesn't help the scaling; a base Vegeta no selling against Gotenks is pretty inconsistent considering what happen later: it makes Piccolo, Krilin, 18, Mr Buu, apparently Roshi and Tien too far stronger than Super Boo, even Gohan when was stated that is weaker than his Cell Games self several times.

I agree.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

honestly there stats wouldnt really change with how high first form frieza was on the Large star level his final form Base Goku battled he should be solar systome level so there tier wouldnt actually change only how the charaters are organized on the veres page would change

 

[Antoniofer]

Several would remain as they currently are, but the speed would change, and we should check the fighters during Champ Arc besides Hit.

 

[PostmodernD]

Long story short, Super took scaling to the backyard shed and shot it.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Several would remain as they currently are, but the speed would change, and we should check the fighters during Champ Arc besides Hit.

yes however as I said before due to scaling from frize The Tier wouldnt actually Change but how they are arranged on the Verse page would.

 

[SomebodyData]

Why would speed change.

@Ryop thats why I mentioned in the second part of my response that the new episode makes this just Goku holding back (thank goodness) not PIS.

 

[Antoniofer]

Not sure if everyone are one speed tier above, but characters like, let say Lavenda is actually being considered faster than Cell; but the changes would applied to the verse page since the speed value wouldn't change.

 

[SomebodyData]

I see

 

[Antoniofer]

So, are we going to make any change? maybe any suggested scaling