Goten and Trunks gets out of Baseline

[AKM sama]

AKM and Medeus:

So what should we do here?

I already stated my opinion. We don't backscale things from a fusion to its fusees, especially when there is no fixed multiplier. While I can see the point in the arguments, I'd still avoid it.

It's probably best if more staff members are pinged here and get their opinions as well, like @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @ByAsura

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We can wait a little while and then likely close this thread then.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm with AKM here.

If you want to go by guides that claim Fusion Dance = Potara, it's also stated in guides that the Potara fusion multiplies its component together rather than providing a massive incremental boost. However, there are plenty of guides claiming one is stronger than the other, so I think we should just drop guides entirely due to inconsistency.

Also, Goku and Vegeta would be astronomically above Post-ROSAT Trunks and Goten, if this were the case. Super Vegito was curbstomping BuuHan, while SS3 Gotenks was roughly comparable to regular Super Buu.

Onto the statement in-show that Kefla is tens of times stronger than her components, it's probably the worst example you can use. Base Kefla alone was obliterating Super Saiyan God Goku. Tens of times is way too low for her to match even Super Saiyan 3.

 

[AKM sama]

Also, Goku and Vegeta would be astronomically above Post-ROSAT Trunks and Goten, if this were the case. Super Vegito was curbstomping BuuHan, while SS3 Gotenks was roughly comparable to regular Super Buu.

That is a good point. This logic of backscaling inconsistent boosts from a fusion to its fusees would mean that a hypothetical post-RoSaT SSJ3 Goten/Trunks would get absolutely smackstomped by SSJ Goku/Vegeta.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Onto the statement in-show that Kefla is tens of times stronger than her components, it's probably the worst example you can use. Base Kefla alone was obliterating Super Saiyan God Goku. Tens of times is way too low for her to match even Super Saiyan 3.

Vados was referring to Base Kefla compared to SSJ2 Caulifla and LSSJ2 Kale

What she meant is that Base Kefla = (SSJ2 Caulifla + LSSJ2 Kale) * Tens of times, which would definitely explain how Kefla stomped SSG Goku

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It also explains why Gogeta was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Goku in base.
EDIT: Ignore this.

 

[ByAsura]

@Gilad Vados' exact words were 'The new body and personality from a Potara fusion are more than the sum of their parts and their power increases tens of times.' She explicitly did not say Kefla was tens of times more powerful than Kale and Caulifa's Super Saiyan forms, she said Potara in general multiplies power tens of times.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It also explains why Gogeta was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Goku in base.
EDIT: Ignore this.

It does?

 

[SirAlex09]

Never mind I concede. Asura's argument makes sense.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Gilad Vados' exact words were 'The new body and personality from a Potara fusion are more than the sum of their parts and their power increases tens of times.' She explicitly did not say Kefla was tens of times more powerful than Kale and Caulifa's Super Saiyan forms, she said Potara in general multiplies power tens of times.

No. Notice how she said the sum of her parts, and their power, meaning it's the total amount of their power, and as such, she was referring to their Super Saiyan forms. There's nothing that suggests that she referred to Base form, including your own statement.

And the only way this, and other instances of fusions (Base Vegito/Gogeta >> Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, Manga Base Vegito > God Zamasu >>> Manga SSR Black, Kefla >>> LSSJ2 Kale, Base Gotenks >>>> SSJ Goten and Trunks, Buu Saga Base Vegito >>>> SSJ3 Goku)

All of those can be easily explained if we're using Vados' statement and using their SSJ forms for this rather than using Base form for no reason and then complaining that it doesn't work, while it quite clearly does

 

[ByAsura]

Sum of their parts means Kale + Caulifa. In this case, it's base Kale and base Caulifa.

There's nothing to suggest she meant their Super Saiyan forms, and it makes absolutely no sense because she's just referring to Potara in general. Potara is not a thing that's limited to Saiyans or characters with the ability to transform.

It doesn't work. Adding context that doesn't exist changes nothing.

 

[AKM sama]

It also explains why Gogeta was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue Goku in base.
EDIT: Ignore this.

It should have made base Gogeta stronger than UI Goku by that logic.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We know that Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) is stronger than his previous Super Saiyan form

As a question here, do we have a better source for this than Piccolo, who made a wrong judgement call basically every single time he talked in that fight?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sum of their parts means Kale + Caulifa. In this case, it's base Kale and base Caulifa.

There's nothing to suggest she meant their Super Saiyan forms, and it makes absolutely no sense because she's just referring to Potara in general. Potara is not a thing that's limited to Saiyans or characters with the ability to transform.

They refer to the max power of the fighters, which in case of Caulifla and Kale, are their SSJ forms. Obviously there are characters who can't transform so their full power will be their max power and it'll work from there, like Zamasu when he and Black merged to form Fused Zamasu.

Sum means all their power combined, not a fraction of their full power. Otherwise I can just as easily say for untrasformed characters that the Potara only uses 1% of their power and it'll be as valid as your claims. And nothing was referring to Base form either

 

[ByAsura]

Which she never says or remotely implies.

Base forms do not have fractional power, they have the full power of that form. Transformations are just there to bolster Ki, so it makes absolutely no sense that they'd stay in Base with this level of power and be able to stack the forms.

And why would it even be restrained to the exact power their strongest forms rather than something like potential? Nothing in the series establishes anything like that.

That could very well be the case because the Fusion Dance multiplies by suppressed power. The fact that they're stuck as forms if they fuse in while transformed makes me think this is extremely likely.

And nothing was referring to Super forms. She does not say it draws their power, she just says that it multiplies the existing components. If they fuse in base, they're in their base forms, if they fuse in Super Saiyan, they're stuck in Super Saiyan until the fusion comes undone, so clearly transformations are their own animal when it comes to fusion.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

if they fuse in Super Saiyan, they're stuck in Super Saiyan until the fusion comes undone

Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla and Super Saiyan 2 Kale became a base form Kefla.

 

[ByAsura]

Caulifa and Kale were blasted by Goku's Kamehameha. They probably untransformed. We see with characters like Zamasu, who became a Rose upon fusion, that this is the case. They also become base Saiyans once the fusion itself was undone (as every base Potara fusion in the series has done even in super states).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Caulifa and Kale were blasted by Goku's Kamehameha. They probably untransformed. We see with characters like Zamasu, who became a Rose upon fusion, that this is the case. They also become base Saiyans once the fusion itself was undone (as every base Potara fusion in the series has done even in super states).

Fused Zamasu turned back into Rosé Goku Black and Future Zamasu when he defused.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Caulifa and Kale were blasted by Goku's Kamehameha. They probably untransformed. We see with characters like Zamasu, who became a Rose upon fusion, that this is the case. They also become base Saiyans once the fusion itself was undone (as every base Potara fusion in the series has done even in super states).

They were blasted off the arena as Super Saiyan 2s, and then we see them fuse into Base Kefla. Saying that they detransformed without proof is headcanon

 

[ByAsura]

Wasn't that manga only? Although I think that's also supposed to be a sequel to the manga, and retains at least most of the same rules.

Fair point, then. But I still strongly doubt they were transformed.

Literally every fusion in the series becomes the form that their fusees were (excluding one case of Trunks and Goten becoming Super Saiyan with the Fusion Dance, which is not the same and wouldn't really be relevant in this situation), Fusion Zamasu included. It's hardly headcanon, and a very big point in the OG manga.

 

[SirAlex09]

Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla and Super Saiyan 2 Kale became a base form Kefla.

If that is the case , Gilad i actually right

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wasn't that manga only? Although I think that's also supposed to be a sequel to the manga, and retains at least most of the same rules.

Fair point, then. But I still strongly doubt they were transformed.

Literally every fusion in the series becomes the form that their fusees were (excluding one case of Trunks and Goten becoming Super Saiyan with the Fusion Dance, which is not the same and wouldn't really be relevant in this situation), Fusion Zamasu included. It's hardly headcanon, and a very big point in the OG manga.

Elder Kai was also wrong about several other things such as Potara fusions lasting forever, and in both cases Vegito fused, they were in Base form and then powered up so we don't actually know.

Same as Gogeta in DBS Broly

 

[ByAsura]

He was only wrong about the fusion being permanent, and even then it was half-true. We always see them in the same form as their fusees, so he probably wasn't wrong there.

Gogeta was in base. Wdym?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He was only wrong about the fusion being permanent, and even then it was half-true. We always see them in the same form as their fusees, so he probably wasn't wrong there.

Gogeta was in base. Wdym?

Exactly. It's the same as Vegito (Fusing in Base then powering up)

But it doesn't disprove Kefla's example as this doesn't tell us anything about her

 

[ByAsura]

Fusion Zamasu fused as Rose and he was Rose, so they don't default to base.

We don't actually see what form they fused in. We've only heard in the series that they fuse in the same forms, so it also doesn't prove Kefla is an example.

Anyway, Fusion logic is super inconsistent. We should probably go case-by-case rather than just backscaling.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread soon?

 

[Tarang123]

So should we close this thread soon?

I don’t think that’s required. I think discussion is healthy for this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that we can wait a bit then.

 

[SomebodyData]

What is there left to discuss?

 

[Antvasima]

Good question. I also think that this can probably be closed.