Goku's durability?

[The_real_cal_howard]

How do we handle the fact that Goku got killed by Cell's desperation self destruct that was explicitly 5-A at best?

 

[FTW395]

Claim Cell's self-destruction was higher than 5-A, but the AOE was lower

 

[Antoniofer]

what's means AOE? maybe the self destruction were AT MOST Large Star, but that is unlikely due what Cell say; Gohan were going to be destroyed by that attack tho, and he is SS in durability

 

[Antvasima]

Area Of Effect. It is common within fiction that enormously powerful attacks somehow do not affect a large area.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What do you think it is, Ant? I'm personally not sure, as Cell with is SS statement doesn't seem like one to limit himself to an AOE attack.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Semi Perfect Cell was the one who did the self destruction and we rate him at Large Star Level, but we know that self destruction is also higher than any of his normal attacks since it was a charged attack with Cell growing bigger and bigger. I would say leave Goku as he is since he was still able to tank and repel Perfect Cell attacks .

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Allan. The ulterior point of this thread is to bring up the fact that that DB scaling seems to be a bit wonky for the Android/Cell saga, and this is an example. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Goku and Cell are 5A at the time, but boardering on SS level seems to be a bit highballing.

 

[LordAizenSama]

How do we handle it? it was just plot. Plot wanted Goku to die there. You could ask: why did Goku not just teleport Cell out into space? or even just tele himself and King Kai after moving cell to King Kai's planet.

No stat changes are required.

 

[Antoniofer]

We never saw the actual explotion, but in the anime the explotion seems to be earth sized, maybe a little more; and generally, most destructive power in DBZ cover more area than that (see the Vegeta's attack against Frieza for example)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We just can't write everything off as plot. Especially something as big as a death.

On a related topic, how could I tell he difference between PIS and a legit feat / legit calcs when they're close enough?

 

[LordAizenSama]

err yeah, it was plot. and write everything off? it was one thing, no need to exaggerate it.

Just because it was a death doesn't mean it wasn't because of plot. Infact a few deaths happen because they need to keep the plot progressing. This is one of them, in many ways.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fair enough. I still want to see what others think though.

 

[KingIV]

Self destucting is stronger than normal attacks or you missed when pokemon went to self destruct against Nappa?

 

[Antoniofer]

Even if a plot thing, Goku being killed by a Star level or even Large Planet level attack doesn't contradict anything from the manga or anime before; this is one of the only durability feats of DBZ previous to the Buu saga, is better consider this than consider a vague statement that appears to be inconsistence

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Question again how do you know that Attack was 5-A.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm not saiying that is Large Planet at all, I'm saiying that if even is a large planet attack and can kill Goku or Gohan doesn't contradict anything from previous chapter

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Wasn't the Previous Chapter Small star to Star Level due to Frieza, so it would contradict stuff.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not in the manga. It was proven in Super. And still, wonky scaling. Literally everything until Ep. 12 is powerscaled from a feat decades later (except Cell's controversial statement), and we did powerscaling for the android/cell saga that I haven't seen anywhere else.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Is just PIS.

Just that.

 

[Antoniofer]

No, Frieza made an attack that was calculed in being Dwarf Star, however Goku nor anyone never tanked the attack and/or survived, so actually, never has tanked an attack of that magnitude before

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Is just PIS.
Just that.

And how do we know that Frieza destroying Vegeta isn't PIS since he didn't one-shot Namek in his strongest form while pissed? While I believe the calc is legit, so is this MAJOR part in DB.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

How do we handle it? it was just plot. Plot wanted Goku to die there. You could ask: why did Goku not just teleport Cell out into space? or even just tele himself and King Kai after moving cell to King Kai's planet.
No stat changes are required.

Because Goku cant breathe in outer space? The fact he and Cell would be stuck somewhere in the Atmosphere where Goku has any air to survive which would still be close enough to obliterate the planet? And where would he and King Kai go? Remember Goku needs to concentrate to teleport and by the time he wouldve located someones KI he and King Kai would have been destroyed.

 

[Ryukama]

What do you think it is, Ant? I'm personally not sure, as Cell with is SS statement doesn't seem like one to limit himself to an AOE attack.

Area of effect is just something that is extremely common. And you can really apply this to anything.

"I am sure someone who loves death and destruction like Frieza wouldn't limit himself to area of effect attacks each time he was hitting the Z Fighters."

"I'm sure someone who was descrbed as an uncontrollable maniac like Kid Buu wouldn't limit himself to Area of Effect attacks"

"I'm sure someone who is mindless and cares for nothing but killing like Doomsday wouldn't limit himself to Area of Effect attacks. So why didn't he destroy even the city when he beat Superman?"

"I'm sure Boros, someone who likes going all out and was gradually getting pissed at Saitama, wouldn't limit himself to an Area of Effect attacks and not even destroy his ship in one attack."

Area of Effect is far too common trope of lack of logic that most series have. And if we went by it essentially every single page here would be behemoths of downplay such as Building Level Doomsday and Wall Level Restricted Boros.

If you have no problem with Large Star Level attacks having the Area of Effect of a building or City Level attacks having Street Level Area of Effect. Then you should have no problem with a Solar System attack spanning a Large Planet.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The reason Cell is different is because 1, he was going to kill himself on purpose and wanted it all gone and 2, less than 5 minutes later was going to destroy the solar system.

And most of those given are for punches, which are forced to have AoE effects. Blasts and explosions are vastly different. However, I forgot how the Saitama/Boros fight went, even though I saw it.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Aizen and Ryukama. This is no different from any other instance used very regularly within fiction.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Once again.

"Doomday only wanted to kill Superman and the city. He wanted it all gone" etc. etc. Using this intent of the villain to say they wouldn't have used an Area of Effect is flawed.

And blasts and explosions are not treated differently than strikes when it comes to Area of Effect. And if you are going to make a big deal about this one incident than you can downplay the entire Dragon Ball series because there are all examples of "blasts and explosions" with the Area of Effect of mountains.

 

[Antvasima]

I should probably close this thread, as it will not lead anywhere. Howard, I would appreciate if you would permanently drop this topic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay Ant.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm good with the self-destruction being Large Star, but is impossible to being a SS attack, Perfect Cell only have enough power to destroy the solar system, and 2nd form Cell is several times weaker