Goku vs Zero

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, I'm going incon for now.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright vote counted. And I have to say I haven't had this much fun in a vs debate in quite a long time. Guess it is fun when you debate with characters who are close in power and not too haxxed with both having wincons.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Goku would enjoy battling Zero if they were close in power. If Zero gets stronger, Goku will match that strength accordingly. That's just how he operates in character. If Zero starts going all out, so will Goku. If he gets pushed enough, he could activate Ultra Instinct, which makes him increase in speed, strength, etc. at a rapid rate.

 

[Peter1129]

So yeah basically like my assumed battle. They would probably match each other using their weakest forms then slowly work their way up. Once Zero goes Ultimate, Goku would also go SSBKKx20. After that Zero can't hit Goku anymore so he will probably use Shining to go into the future to formulate a plan before coming back. The plan will probably just end up being use his strongest form (Ultimate Shining) to try and beat Goku with an AoE attack with an even larger difference in power. So there's a chance that form's AoE attack would defeat Goku due to the more than 45x difference in power. And there's a chance that Goku will survive and enter Ultra Instinct Sign a third time and maybe outlast Ultimate Shining Zero. So inconclusive is where I assume the match will end in.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I mean, with Ultimate VS SSBKKx20, it's only a 1.5x AP difference. Plus Goku's ability to get stronger as he fights could help him to close the AP gap, albeit over the course of a long and drawn out battle. Also, I think it's unlikely that Goku would survive an attack from Ultimate Shining Zero, given the massive AP gap.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah the difference is negligible but the speed difference is huge. So Goku probably wouldn't be able to take Zero down in time before he enters Shining to take a break.

I mean its an AoE attack so if Goku gets far enough the blast probably won't be as powerful and he could survive it... Ehh who am I kidding yeah the chances of Ultimate Shining Zero one shotting Goku with an AoE attack is probably higher. So yeah never mind if Ultimate Shining isn't restricted I guess Zero probably does have a chance of winning via AoE nuking despite the huge speed difference.

So anyway who are you voting?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Probably Zero. Shining gives him a huge advantage, as he can take what he's already seen of Goku's arsenal, go back in time and strategize, and then come up with a plan or decide to use Ultimate Shining to deal with him with a single strike. Then again, there is the possibility that with the speed advantage, Goku could deal significant damage before that happens...

What defensive hax/abilities does Zero have, and how effective would it be at dealing with Goku.

 

[Peter1129]

I don't think Zero has much defensive hax. Most of his hax comes from Shining's time shenanigans. But he does have some defensive abilities. All Ultras have telekinesis so he could block and deflect energy attacks using it. And he could make a barrier that surrounds himself in a box. With the Ultimate Bracelet he could also split himself in two and use one of him to briefly distract Goku (Although I don't think this works in Ultimate form as he is wearing the Ultimate Aegis (Ultimate Bracelet) when in this form). And theoretically he could open up a portal in his Ultimate form to like just send energy attacks away or get away from the battle himself (But this isn't as safe as Shining's time travel as Goku could also go through the portal).

So yeah I guess when Zero sees how fast Goku is he will maybe try to hit him normally but to no avail. After that he tries telekinesis and etc. which will only somewhat help him. So in the end he will probably just make an omnidirectional barrier surrounding himself to hold off Goku's attacks before entering Shining to time travel into the future then back to the present after formulating a plan.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, that's assuming Zero would be able to even think. A 7.5x speed gap is a speed blitz to the point that the opponet can't even think. Now imagine a 20x speed gap.

Also, a crucial question, but how does SBA "Willing to kill" thing works?

 

[Peter1129]

I mean if it’s anything Luna-Miracle is kind of a form based off of fusing Cosmos’s Luna Mode and Dyna’s Miracle Type (Speed form) together. Dyna is canonically supposed to be Tiga but better. And Tiga's speed form Sky Type was stated to triple his reaction speed. Ultimate is also shown to be a bigger boost than both Strong-Corona and Luna-Miracle in terms of speed and power. So Ultimate is faster than Luna-Miracle which is likely 3x faster than base in terms of reaction speed based on scaling. So the speed difference is likely just under 7x if we assume Base Zero is equal to SSB Goku in speed. So it is possible for Zero to be able to barely think while in Ultimate form.

I assume they maintain their personality but are willing to kill to win.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, like, if they have a gun pointed at your head, they won't hesitate to shoot like they would normally.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean if it’s anything Luna-Miracle is kind of a form based off of fusing Cosmos’s Luna Mode and Dyna’s Miracle Type (Speed form) together. Dyna is canonically supposed to be Tiga but better. And Tiga's speed form Sky Type was stated to triple his reaction speed. Ultimate is also shown to be a bigger boost than both Strong-Corona and Luna-Miracle in terms of speed and power. So Ultimate is faster than Luna-Miracle which is likely 3x faster than base in terms of reaction speed based on scaling. So the speed difference is likely just under 7x if we assume Base Zero is equal to SSB Goku in speed. So it is possible for Zero to be able to barely think while in Ultimate form.

If anything, that sounds like it's gonna be a problem for Zero. Because lets say Luna is 4x boost in terms of reaction speed due to being better than Tiga, Goku would notice that Zero is pretty much dodging all of his attacks.

He might go 10x kaioken because of that. And considering Goku is (I think) 2 times baseline, top that with 10x, that would be a 20x baseline. How much of an amp does Luna give in terms of strength? Zero is baseline in his base form, but what about with Luna? 2 or 4x?

Yeah, like, if they have a gun pointed at your head, they won't hesitate to shoot like they would normally.

So... in this matchup, would Goku not hesitate to kill Zero, or would he just let him talk and transform?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Goku's first move is usually just to use Kaioken, not jump straight to Kaioken x10 or x20, no?

 

[Axxtentacle]

If anything, that sounds like it's gonna be a problem for Zero. Because lets say Luna is 4x boost in terms of reaction speed due to being better than Tiga, Goku would notice that Zero is pretty much dodging all of his attacks.

He might go 10x kaioken because of that. And considering Goku is (I think) 2 times baseline, top that with 10x, that would be a 20x baseline. How much of an amp does Luna give in terms of strength? Zero is baseline in his base form, but what about with Luna? 2 or 4x?

So... in this matchup, would Goku not hesitate to kill Zero, or would he just let him talk and transform?

He'd let him talk and transform, but if he got a different opportunity to kill Zero, he'd take it.

 

[Peter1129]

Luna-Miracle is just stronger than Base we have no idea how much of a boost it is. All we know is that Luna-Miracle is a 3x boost in speed. Strong-Corona is a mix of Dyna's Strong Type and Cosmos' Corona Mode. Strong Type is stated to be several times stronger than Base so that's a 3x boost in power. So Strong-Corona is a 3x boost in power. Basically

Luna-Miracle: Unknown boost in power that's less than 3x, but is a 3x boost in speed.

Strong-Corona: Unknown boost in speed that's less than 3x, but is a 3x boost in power.

Ultimate: More than 30x boost in power and more than 3x boost in speed.

But yeah like Axxtentacle said based on Goku's personality he would likely say is that all before giving Zero a chance to transform into a stronger form rather than kill him right there.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It's... really iffy. It'd be like when Goku fought cell, for example. They talked, but when Goku got the opportunity to blast Cell's top half off with a Kame, he took it immediately.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah, okay then. Though, didn't you just say Luna is better than Tiga in terms of speed? Shouldn't that make it a 4x reaction speed amp? If its stated to be better than Tiga, isn't it weird to assume it has the same reaction speed buff?

Well, my point still stands. Once Zero goes Luna, Goku will notice he's dodging everything, and would probably go Kaioken 10x or 5x and probably punch once or twice or smth. The former would more than likely just one shot Zero, and the latter would deal way too heavy damage. That's, of course, assuming Luna Miracle is 2x boost in power.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

It's... really iffy. It'd be like when Goku fought cell, for example. They talked, but when Goku got the opportunity to blast Cell's top half off with a Kame, he took it immediately.

I was about to say, Goku didn't give Black time to power up further when Black said he offed his wife and son. Goku was just going ham and wrecking house.

One of my favorite anime beatdowns, personally.

 

[Peter1129]

@Axxtentacle True but wasn't that because Cell is like the villain and will blow up the planet if Goku loses? I was thinking Goku vs Zero is more of a hey let's fight its okay if we kill each other because we have dragon balls type of situation.

@Rikimarox2 Being better doesn't mean it is definitely 4x though. We go with the low end and assume it's also just 3x.

Uhh I honestly don't think Goku would straight up use a kaioken that high right away. Cause doesn't he also have the habit of like not going all out no matter what unless his opponent is really really strong like Jiren or Goku Black? I assume he starts off with SSBKKx2 or x3.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I was about to say, Goku didn't give Black time to power up further when Black said he offed his wife and son. Goku was just going ham and wrecking house.

One of my favorite anime beatdowns, personally.

I'd argue Goku got bloodlusted by that lmao, he was beating the **** out of that man once he said that.

@Axxtentacle True but wasn't that because Cell is like the villain and will blow up the planet if Goku loses? I was thinking Goku vs Zero is more of a hey let's fight its okay if we kill each other because we have dragon balls type of situation.

Yeah, but SBA says "willing to kill" so it would have to be that kind of thing.

 

[Peter1129]

@Axxtentacle Well this is what it said in the SBA page.

In character, but willing to kill. The characters will employ their usual battle strategies, including flaws such as being casual, however, must be willing to kill the opponent even if they usually won't.

So I assume that means Goku would allow Zero to transform as in character he does allow people to do that as shown with Ribrianne. The willing to kill thing will likely happen only after Goku has seen all of Zero's forms.

 

[Rikimarox2]

My memory is quite foggy due to the shitfest that was DBS, so I'd appreciate it if someone could correct/remind me here, but didn't Goku go Kaioken 10x against hit despite hit being like an equal in terms of strength, and only really causing harm to Goku via his speed and technique? Considering Goku would notice that Zero is literally dodging everything due to the speed gap, I don't see why he wouldn't go 10x?

Though, my memory is ******* me over, so I might be wrong here.

@Peter1129 I mean, isn't that kinda downplaying? You are assuming that A is equal to B in speed despite A being stated to be faster than B. Regardless, Multipliers are wack, so I guess we can go with 3x amp.

Honestly, after all of this, I'm beginning to lean towards Zero a bit.

 

[Peter1129]

@Rikimarox2 If I remember correctly Hit actually adapted and got stronger to the point where he was stomping SSB Goku. Also I think Goku just didn't want to give Hit the time to adapt so he went x10 (But that didn't work and Hit still adapted). Also Luna-Miracle Zero would only be around 3x faster than SSB Goku going SSBKKx2 or x3 should be more than enough for him to keep up. So I assume that's what Goku would do to keep having fun while fighting.

I mean Dyna is canonically better than Tiga but his strength form is only considered a several times boost just like Tiga's strength form being a several times boost. So no being canonically better doesn't mean the multiplier suddenly got bigger as well. So we just assume it is at least the same which is 3 since several means at least 3.

Alright so you are changing your vote to Zero correct? And I think ZoroNotZolo was also leaning towards Zero so that means 2 votes for Zero right?

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean, isn't a 3x speed gap quite large? Zero should be able to technically dodge everything.

Also, how exactly will Goku know its a 3x speed boost when he notices that zero is dodging everything? Wouldn't he go something like 5x or smth, rather than just 2x or 3x since people don't exactly know how much faster a person is than them, at least, I don't think so. If they do, then sure.

Regardless if he goes 4x or 3x, he'd still have a feasible AP advantage over him. Since Goku is about 2x baseline here, with Kaioken X4 he'd be 8 times. About 4 times higher than Zero Luna. And depending on how SBA works, he'd might just kill Zero once he realizes he has an opportunity. If that's not how it works, then rip for that Idea I guess.

Although, if zero went Shining, and Goku somehow survived that, wouldn't he realize that he's in big trouble and just straight up go 20x and have an immense speed advantage over Zero and just try to kill him before Zero does? And dear god if he went UI.

Also, I assume these multipliers are stacked? So when Zero goes Luna, he'd be 2x baseline, and with Corona, he'd be 6x, or is that wrong?

 

[Peter1129]

I mean it’s only really reaction speed. Goku could still shoot beams at Zero who might just deflect them rather than dodge it which would cause Goku to think interesting and go x2 as a start just to test his speed and power.

I dunno. But based on what I know of Goku’s personality I don’t think he is the type of person who would go SSBKKx5 without analyzing his opponents power first. Like against a casual Hit he also started off with Base just to see his strength and abilities. After analyzing Hit, Goku then went SSB and became slightly more powerful than Hit. So I assume he would analyze and roughly see that Zero is about 3x faster than he is and start off with x2 or x3 to close the gap and have fun.

Zero rarely uses Shining in battle. He would probably go Ultimate instead when Luna-Miracle and Strong-Corona doesn’t work.

No other than Ultimate Shining none of the other forms are stacked. Luna-Miracle and Strong-Corona are Zero’s speed and strength form respectively.

Luna-Miracle: Unknown boost in power that's less than 3x, but is a 3x boost in speed.

Strong-Corona: Unknown boost in speed that's less than 3x, but is a 3x boost in power.

He can’t stack them on each other. But he could split himself into both forms at once thanks to the Ultimate Bracelet. So he could simultaneously use both forms to fight Goku.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Damn I think this is the only thread where I speculated this much.

Well, this match would pretty much just be transforming vs transforming.

Once Goku goes Kaioken x3 or 4 and Zero goes ultimate, Goku would more than like survive 1 hit, and then will probably notice how much of a threat he is and might go all out and have a speed advantage. This is still pretty iffy tbh, as it can go either way. Though once he realizes how much of a threat he is, and depending on how SBA plays into this, he might want to end this quick.

How likely is Zero to go Shining Ultimate, and can he transform via thought?

For the record, after all of this, my vote still remains 50/50 since it can go either way.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah same here. Haven’t speculated this much in a match in quite while.

Yeah pretty much.

Yep Ultimate Zero wouldn’t be able to one shot SSBKKx3 or x4 Goku which causes Goku to go x20 and have the speed advantage. Personally I think he would want to have a bit more fun as the world isn’t in danger due to this match.

Takes like a few seconds to set up. Here is the video of him transforming into Ultimate Shining for the first time. Although he would likely go Shining first and use time travel to think of a plan rather than go straight to Ultimate Shining. Shining‘s transformation is pretty much instant just like Strong-Corona and Luna-Miracle.

Alright so your vote is still inconclusive.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, I'm honestly just gonna stick with Incon. Both have good chances to kill the other, so Incon seems like the better choice here.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so that means 1? (ZoroNotZolo) for Zero and 1 (Rikimarox2) for inconclusive. Guess now we just wait and see what everybody else thinks.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

This is quite the intriguing thread, tbh

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah similar AP in weaker forms, many different transformations with different abilities, overwhelming AP advantage on one side in their strongest form while the other side has massive speed advantage in their strongest form, in character personalities and etc. makes this match really interesting as there could be many different outcomes.

Anyway just to make sure you are voting for Zero right? Or are you also voting inconclusive?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I think I'm voting for Zero.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so now it’s 0:1:1

 

[Peter1129]

Bump

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

If I remember correctly, the speed is no longer equalized, right? Probably should update the OP then.

Okay, so SBA; willing to kill but otherwise in character, speed unequalized, let's see.

Like agreed before, both would definitely start with CQC with Goku at this state having a slight edge. Goku despite willingness to kill would still pull some punches if no inherent evil can be sensed from his opponents, right? That could lead to him somewhat prolonging the fight enough for Zero to realize he's at a disadvantage at which point he'd actually go for Strong-Corona. At a state where he's willing to kill, SC Zero goes for the kill after a fairly short skirmish against his opponents and seeing as at this point, it's basically >2x (Goku) vs 3x (Zero) baselines, he could secure a win, especially if he uses Ultra Hurricane to lock Goku in place long enough for him to use Garnate Buster.

However, I am also aware that Goku is extremely savvy if the tables are turned, which would very likely lead to him applying KKx10 over his current form. Almost instantly this can lead to victory for him due to the extreme gap he's made. By the way, what's typically considered to be Goku's killing move, Kamehameha? If so, then adding to the fact he's prone to using IT at any given time, he has a higher likeliness of winning.

Yet at the same time, considering that this SSB Goku is still likely higher than 2x baseline, SC too might not seal the win, and that might force each other to use their stronger forms once they realize they're not going anywhere. At this rate, Zero is 30x in strength, higher than Goku, but he on the other hand, has the superior speed. The question at this time is, can Goku do anything else to bypass his resistance? It's kind of hard to determine since both of them have ridiculous stamina which means that Goku tiring himself is a little unlikely. Again at the same time, Zero doesn't have any methods to counter that speed. I'm not gonna factor in Shining because Goku isn't stronger than him still, and he shouldn't be pinned to a fatal position despite the difference in speed.

All in all, I'm leaning into incon.

 

[Peter1129]

Speed is still equalized. It’s just that even under speed equal Goku would still have a massive speed advantage due to Kaioken.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ah, okay then. But in that case, my points remain unchanged still.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah I know. So anyways adding your vote as inconclusive.

Btw I’m pretty sure we can’t just assume somebody is 2x Baseline for being stronger than Baselines. So at most we should just consider SSB Goku to be stronger than baseline just like Luna-Miracle Zero.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump