Goku vs Akuma

[SamanPatou]

If there's something that Akuma loves, it's interrupting tournaments.
We're at the finals of the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, Son Goku is about to face Tien Shinhan, when a mysterious figure suddenly appears and knocks Tien down. He then turns to Goku, and stares him in the eyes... both know what is about to happen.

• Speed is equalized
• 22nd Budokai Goku and Street Fighter Origins Akuma are used
• The battle takes place in the Budokai Arena and starting distance is 5 meters
• Goku upscales to 4.01 tons by a good margin, while Akuma upscales to 11.51 tons by an unknown margin

The Monkey King: 1 (TauanVictor)
The Master of the Fist: 8 (Votron5, Dragonite007, Psychomaster35, Artorimachi_Meteoraft, MaverickZeroX, TheRustyOne, Popted2, jojo123)
Inconclusive:

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Mariogoods]

Bump

 

[Votron5]

Starting with AP, the gap doesn't seem too bad. After his first battle with Tao, he received a boost from training with Korin enough to easily defeat Tao, then presumably got stronger during the 3 year time skip. If we stick with the 11.51 figure, my best guess is Akuma has 2x the AP and Dura Goku has at most.

In terms of stamina, they seem equal, with a slight edge for Akuma for his higher resistance to pain.

Goku landslides in accelerated development compared to Akuma, with Akuma mastering training and techniques in years, and Goku doing the same in days to moments (With power mimicry). It seems to me that Goku has better ingenuity than Akuma if he can make new techniques on the fly.

Akuma might have a slight edge in his chi use since the chi in Akuma's verse is drawn from multiple sources in the environment (Kinda like the Spirit Bomb) instead of just drawing it from the body like in DB. It seems to me Akuma has a larger pool to draw chi from than Goku does and is less likely to waste stamina using it.

For approaches to fighting, Akuma seems to take a beating from the challenger before going in for the kill.

The intangibility, Speed amp and teleporting from Akuma is gunna give Goku a bad time.

How I picture the fight going down is Goku engaging with kicks and punches to Akuma who takes not too much damage due to the AP/Dura gap, then retaliates all out against Goku. While I do think Goku would counter Akuma's "generic" chi techniques (Maybe would even copy them), I don't think Goku can really think something up that's going to counter the intangibility, teleporting, and speed amp and would get overwhelmed quickly. Combine that with the higher AP/Dura and potentially higher stamina for chi use, I don't think Goku would win.

Voting for Akuma

 

[SamanPatou]

Counted

 

[Dragonite007]

Akuma from Votron reasons

 

[Psychomaster35]

Oh hey, the matchup I once requested as a Death Battle in 2015-2016 (Way before I knew about the tiering system lmao)

Die 1000 Deaths FRA

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Akuma fra

can akuma survive lethal injuries for long time? (Since he has good stamina)

 

[SamanPatou]

Added the other votes.

can akuma survive lethal injuries for long time? (Since he has good stamina)

Technically yes, he survived Gen's pressure points, they left him incapacitated, but that was pretty lethal.
Other than that, his stamina section has feats of pain and wound endurance, although it's difficult to quantify how much time he would go on when injured to a certain level.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Added the other votes.


Technically yes, he survived Gen's pressure points, they left him incapacitated, but that was pretty lethal.
Other than that, his stamina section has feats of pain and wound endurance, although it's difficult to quantify how much time he would go on when injured to a certain level.

This is more of a durability thing but man is akuma tough to kill. (Assuming your ap is greater than his)

 

[TauanVictor]

How I picture the fight going down is Goku engaging with kicks and punches to Akuma who takes not too much damage due to the AP/Dura gap, then retaliates all out against Goku.

Honestly, what would be stopping Goku from reading Akuma as a book already in this CQC fight? Goku's PM is broken to the point where he can master a technique by copying a source he wasn't even aware of in a few seconds, a technique that took the greatest martial arts master 50 years to master. Or even when he copied just by looking at the 8 arm technique, all while he was a child.

While I do think Goku would counter Akuma's "generic" chi techniques (Maybe would even copy them), I don't think Goku can really think something up that's going to counter the intangibility, teleporting, and speed amp and would get overwhelmed quickly. Combine that with the higher AP/Dura and potentially higher stamina for chi use, I don't think Goku would win.

Goku has his own RPL via Zenkai where he has always shown he can close large AP/Dura and Speed gaps by recovering from serious injury even during combat. Tbf he can continue to resist even after a severe injury to his vital organ without Zenkai.



How exactly does your intangibility work? Depending on Akuma's versatility, Goku can copy.

 

[SamanPatou]

Not really, Gen could already pierce Akuma's durability through AP, as his normal attacks were clearly effective, but his killing techniques have specific side-effects. You can see it more in detail in Akuma's resistance to Pressure Points and Chun-Li's profile.

 

[SamanPatou]

Honestly, what would be stopping Goku from reading Akuma as a book already in this CQC fight? Goku's PM is broken to the point where he can master a technique by copying a source he wasn't even aware of in a few seconds, a technique that took the greatest martial arts master 50 years to master. Or even when he copied just by looking at the 8 arm technique, all while he was a child.

Copying techniques is different from being able to read opponents, predicts, evade etc..., it's more about versatily and countering.
That said, I agree Goku's TM is excellent, but I wan't to be picky and say that in context, Goku was shaking his arms so fast it looked like he was replicating Tien's multi-arms technique.
It's still impressive, useful and shows his great ingenuity, yes, but it must be noted there's a limit to what he can copy.
I must also play the devil's advocate on the kamehameha, mostly because Yamcha, Kuririn, Tien and others were able to copy it in much less than 50 years, although this doesn't invalidate Goku's innate talent.

Goku has his own RPL via Zenkai where he has always shown he can close large AP/Dura and Speed gaps by recovering from serious injury even during combat. Tbf he can continue to resist even after a severe injury to his vital organ without Zenkai.

I must say, Goku's really though and everything, but he too has his limits, and his adult feat doesn't apply to this key.
Still, him getting stronge in mid-combat is a trait of all sayians, althogh it's been somewhat inconsistent during the story.

How exactly does your intangibility work? Depending on Akuma's versatility, Goku can copy.

It lets you become intangible to physical and energy attacks, and travel to another location faster than normal.
It's basically a better version that the game counterpart.
Also, it's tied to the Sastui no Hado, a specific type of ki only few can harness, I don't think Goku would be able to copy it.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Not really, Gen could already pierce Akuma's durability through AP, as his normal attacks were clearly effective, but his killing techniques have specific side-effects. You can see it more in detail in Akuma's resistance to Pressure Points and Chun-Li's profile.

All this makes me think akuma’s loss against shao kahn in death battle was honestly stupid not to mention how the animation and stuff sucked too

 

[SamanPatou]

Let's not derail, please.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Let's not derail, please.

Sure saman.

So what hax does he not use in-character and Which does he use in-character

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Akuma fra

 

[SamanPatou]

So what hax does he not use in-character and Which does he use in-character

This key of this Akuma doesn't have any particular hax yet, but he's willingly to use teleportation and the Ashura Senku (intagibility technique) as he finds most fitting, although he doesn't seem to spam it.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

This key of this Akuma doesn't have any particular hax yet, but he's willingly to use teleportation and the Ashura Senku (intagibility technique) as he finds most fitting, although he doesn't seem to spam it.

So what hax does akuma have in other keys?

 

[SamanPatou]

Just check his profile.
Anyway, they don't concern this match.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Just check his profile.
Anyway, they don't concern this match.

Are you going to vote on your own thread or not now (you can vote too you know)

 

[SamanPatou]

I know, but I prefer to not do it.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

That’s fine

 

[Votron5]

Honestly, what would be stopping Goku from reading Akuma as a book already in this CQC fight? Goku's PM is broken to the point where he can master a technique by copying a source he wasn't even aware of in a few seconds, a technique that took the greatest martial arts master 50 years to master. Or even when he copied just by looking at the 8 arm technique, all while he was a child.

If the fight is prolonged, I think Goku would have a chance in reading his moves and even closing the AP/Dura gap, but Akuma don't play that way. According to his profile, Akuma will give a challenger a fighting chance by letting them beat him into a pulp before retaliating with full-on lethal force. Sometimes not even that. Akuma fights with no hesitation and goes in for the kill at the first chance. He's pretty much auto-bloodlusted. So it really depends if Akuma would beat Goku before he could learn anything substantial and get stronger/faster to compensate for the gap.

As with what Saman said, Goku can't copy any ki technique, and focuses more on countering other's techniques than whole-cloth copying.

And not only that, The Teleportation, Speed Amp, and Intangibility are for users of the the Satsui no Hado, not general chi users. Even if Goku was able to tap into the Satsui no Hado, he'd go berserk enough to stifle his fighting ability.

And could Goku even theoretically do it? Goku has no evil in his heart and the Satui no Hado is supposed to be the dark side of chi based on killing intent.

 

[TauanVictor]

Copying techniques is different from being able to read opponents, predicts, evade etc..., it's more about versatily and countering.

I used that expression to mean that in the event of CQC Akuma's entire fighting style would be copied almost instantly. He wouldn't have as much of an advantage in direct confrontation as the user tries to imply.

That said, I agree Goku's TM is excellent, but I wan't to be picky and say that in context, Goku was shaking his arms so fast it looked like he was replicating Tien's multi-arms technique.

Goku only had the speed for that feat due to his PM btw.

I must also play the devil's advocate on the kamehameha, mostly because Yamcha, Kuririn, Tien and others were able to copy it in much less than 50 years, although this doesn't invalidate Goku's innate talent.

Tbf Yamcha, Kuririn and Tien never demonstrated Roshi's proficiency with the Kamehameha to the level of vaporizing the moon completely.

His fighting power with the Kamehameha was 139, and Goku for the Piccolo Arc was 260, above Tien and Kuririn. It's still a pretty considerable achievement here.

I must say, Goku's really though and everything, but he too has his limits, and his adult feat doesn't apply to this key.
Still, him getting stronge in mid-combat is a trait of all sayians, althogh it's been somewhat inconsistent during the story.

Fair. However he has RPL in his profile, so idk what we do here, it was necessary to consider it btw.

It lets you become intangible to physical and energy attacks, and travel to another location faster than normal.
It's basically a better version that the game counterpart.
Also, it's tied to the Sastui no Hado, a specific type of ki only few can harness, I don't think Goku would be able to copy it.

Apparently, this is not how VsB considers it. Both DB and SF are put on the chi page as having the same power systems.
Based on this and his broken PM, there is really no stopping Goku from copying Akuma's intangibility and using it to his advantage.

I think that's a valid reason for Goku FRA here, plus Zenkai-RPL to take Akuma by surprise and a decent AoE with Kamehameha.

 

[SamanPatou]

I used that expression to mean that in the event of CQC Akuma's entire fighting style would be copied almost instantly. He wouldn't have as much of an advantage in direct confrontation as the user tries to imply.

That's something Goku never did, honestly, he always sticked to his unique fighting style, even in the very first 21st BT.
In the original series he focused much more on countering the opponent with his own ingenuity and unique traits, occasionally copying moves like the afterimages, rather than going full copy-paste on the opponent.

Goku only had the speed for that feat due to his PM btw.

Not really, or rather, it was never stated.
Goku wanted to mimic Tien's approach, and figured out his own way to do it, with Roshi even stating he'd never be able to actually sprout additional arms.

Tbf Yamcha, Kuririn and Tien never demonstrated Roshi's proficiency with the Kamehameha to the level of vaporizing the moon completely.

That's a matter of pure power level, even Goku's first kamehameha was weak, to the point it just pushed Bulma's car.

Fair. However he has RPL in his profile, so idk what we do here, it was necessary to consider it btw.

That's a combination of the zenkai boost, which even in DB has always been useless in battle unless you had a way to heal yourself, or Vegeta's statement about the saiyans growing in power during the battle, which was much more explored in Super.

Apparently, this is not how VsB considers it. Both DB and SF are put on the chi page as having the same power systems.
Based on this and his broken PM, there is really no stopping Goku from copying Akuma's intangibility and using it to his advantage.

Not really, that's just a label to cover a power so broad in fiction and reality, that you couldn't really write a page that could encompass everything.
We list as chi even Naruto's chakra and even HxH's Nen falls under this category conceptually, but it doesn't mean all chi systems work the same nor that any chi-user with PM can automatically copy different types of chi.

Even within DB itself there are these examples, most notably God Chi is substantially different and virtually unaccessible to those who wield normal Chi, who can't just copy it.
In the Udon Comics its said that all humans have a part of killing intent within them, but only few extraordinary fighters can harness it in great quantities and use it for combat. And since it's inherently evil, Goku shouldn't be able to access it anyway, given his canonically pure heart.

 

[TauanVictor]

If the fight is prolonged, I think Goku would have a chance in reading his moves and even closing the AP/Dura gap, but Akuma don't play that way. According to his profile, Akuma will give a challenger a fighting chance by letting them beat him into a pulp before retaliating with full-on lethal force. Sometimes not even that. Akuma fights with no hesitation and goes in for the kill at the first chance. He's pretty much auto-bloodlusted. So it really depends if Akuma would beat Goku before he could learn anything substantial and get stronger/faster to compensate for the gap.

As I mentioned, Goku received a surprise attack from Piccolo that punctured a vital organ, and even without Zenkai he could still stand up. Goku's physical resilience is absurd.

Btw, would that mean that Akuma would immediately go in for the kill with sloppy kicks? It would be really bad for Akuma if he treated Goku dryly, because in a direct kick like in the case of the scan he would have his movement totally read and copied by Goku's PM. Also, Goku fought Piccolo Daimaoh who is naturally Bloodlusted, he knows how to handle opponents like that.

And could Goku even theoretically do it? Goku has no evil in his heart and the Satui no Hado is supposed to be the dark side of chi based on killing intent.

I don't see how morality could change anything here. Akira himself mentioned that Goku is not a hero, he only wants to fight the strongest people, and yet he fought with intent to kill several times, as in Piccolo Daimaoh's own case.



Although it was in Super, Goku learned the Hakai which is literally a technique of destruction.

 

[TauanVictor]

That's something Goku never did, honestly, he always sticked to his unique fighting style, even in the very first 21st BT.
In the original series he focused much more on countering the opponent with his own ingenuity and unique traits, occasionally copying moves like the afterimages, rather than going full copy-paste on the opponent.

What's in character for Goku to do is to copy the opponent's fighting style and combine it with his own style and creativity. The fight against Tien is an example of this, there is no way to say it's totally OOC.

Not really, or rather, it was never stated.
Goku wanted to mimic Tien's approach, and figured out his own way to do it, with Roshi even stating he'd never be able to actually sprout additional arms.

Goku copied the technique by seeing it only once, and Roshi confirmed this by stating that Goku was imitating Tien.

That's a matter of pure power level, even Goku's first kamehameha was weak, to the point it just pushed Bulma's car.

In this case, it also has to do with proficiency, as Roshi has already stated that Tien could have won their fight and yet Tien lacks versatility with the Kamehameha compared to Roshi.

Goku has mastered and can use the kamehameha wave in ways Roshi can't even dream of. Therefore, he also excelled in versatility.

That's a combination of the zenkai boost, which even in DB has always been useless in battle unless you had a way to heal yourself, or Vegeta's statement about the saiyans growing in power during the battle, which was much more explored in Super.

Tbf the zenkai boost was heavily emphasized during the early part of DBZ (especially in the Freeza Saga) when it served to justify Goku, Gohan and Vegeta getting stronger quickly and easily defeating opponents they had just lost to, so it was not at all useless.

Not really, that's just a label to cover a power so broad in fiction and reality, that you couldn't really write a page that could encompass everything.
We list as chi even Naruto's chakra and even HxH's Nen falls under this category conceptually, but it doesn't mean all chi systems work the same nor that any chi-user with PM can automatically copy different types of chi.

Even within DB itself there are these examples, most notably God Chi is substantially different and virtually unaccessible to those who wield normal Chi, who can't just copy it.
In the Udon Comics its said that all humans have a part of killing intent within them, but only few extraordinary fighters can harness it in great quantities and use it for combat. And since it's inherently evil, Goku shouldn't be able to access it anyway, given his canonically pure heart.

Nen and chakra could interact normally in VS battles afaik, but I get your point.

Wouldn't Goku having mastered God Chi be a practical example that he could copy Akuma's chi in that situation?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Thats far way from what I expected for Udon Akuma's profile

 

[Votron5]

As I mentioned, Goku received a surprise attack from Piccolo that punctured a vital organ, and even without Zenkai he could still stand up. Goku's physical resilience is absurd.

So is Akuma's. Even more so since Akuma isn't subject to pain like Goku is.

Btw, would that mean that Akuma would immediately go in for the kill with sloppy kicks? It would be really bad for Akuma if he treated Goku dryly, because in a direct kick like in the case of the scan he would have his movement totally read and copied by Goku's PM. Also, Goku fought Piccolo Daimaoh who is naturally Bloodlusted, he knows how to handle opponents like that.

That scan was to showcase his ruthlessness and lack of hesitation in combat, not his skill (Since that scan is from early in his fighting career).

Also you use bloodlusted for Piccolo, but I don't think you know what it actually means officially on VsB. You're bloodlusted when you fight with no inhibitions, only care about winning, feel no fear, and are willing get hurt if it means winning. Akuma has all of these qualities. King Piccolo does not. Piccolo regularly tortured Goku by smushing his face with his fist and dragging the first fight longer than he needed. He gets scared by the Evil Containment Wave and when Goku starts kicking his ass the first time. And on top of that, used Tien as a hostage to keep Goku away and attack him at a distance.

At this point, Goku has not fought a bloodlusted opponent before and villains like Tambourine, Piccolo, and Tao Pai Pai took it causually when they fought Goku the first time.

What's in character for Goku to do is to copy the opponent's fighting style and combine it with his own style and creativity. The fight against Tien is an example of this, there is no way to say it's totally OOC.

Your scan does not at all support what you have said here. All Roshi said is that Goku is reading his opponents moves and planning ahead which attacks would be more effective. Not copying or even combining. If you've ever dabbled in RL martial arts, reading and planning for your opponents moves is pretty standard and there's really no reason why Akuma wouldn't be able to read and counter Goku's moves as well. You're acting like Akuma just stepped into a dojo for the first time and started throwing "Sloppy kicks". Akuma is a legendary fighter.

Me and Saman keep bringing up that Goku doesn't copy fighting styles and techniques that often, and more tries to counter them with his own techniques and styles. For some reason, you're ignoring it or just don't understand. The point wasn't that Goku couldn't counter some of Akuma's attacks, the point was would he even have time to do it and could he even effectively counter the teleporting, Intangibility, and the speed amp.

On top of that, he's faced opponents similar in power to him and didn't immediately overwhelm them with his martial arts and Zenkai. I.E. Yamcha, Tien, Master Roshi, Yajirobe.

Goku is a genius when it comes to martial arts. He's a prodigy, but he's not a martial arts god (At least not yet ;>)

Wouldn't Goku having mastered God Chi be a practical example that he could copy Akuma's chi in that situation?

I don't see how morality could change anything here. Akira himself mentioned that Goku is not a hero, he only wants to fight the strongest people, and yet he fought with intent to kill several times, as in Piccolo Daimaoh's own case.

Uh, no. Goku was only able to use God Ki through the SSG ritual, not because he actually learned it. The Satsui no Hado is more like the evil/dark side of chi and emotions that can be released with killing intent and the will to win. With Goku having a pure heart, there's really nothing to release there even if he does have the intent to kill. Goku is not a hero, but he is pure good.

There is too much reasonable doubt to confidently think Goku could utilize the Satsui no Hado with his pure heart and the dark nature of Satsui no Hado. Even if he could utilize it, he'd go berserk. And we ALL know how he handles going berserk. Even someone as focused as Ryu becomes single-minded and predictable when berserked by the Satsui no Hado.

I really don't see Goku winning ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Votron5]

bump

 

[SamanPatou]

What's in character for Goku to do is to copy the opponent's fighting style and combine it with his own style and creativity. The fight against Tien is an example of this, there is no way to say it's totally OOC.

What I meant with ooc is that Goku never really focused that much on copying. He learned others' techniques and made them his, but in the midst of battle, not that much, even against Tien, when he pretty much used his own ingenuity, just like he did against Roshi.
He devised a way to imitate the multiple arms in his own way, yes, but he never copied stuff like the Dodonpa, the levitation, any Crane style technique, and he wouldn't use the Taiyoken until the 23rd tournament, instead he was just already prepared to counter it.

Goku has mastered and can use the kamehameha wave in ways Roshi can't even dream of. Therefore, he also excelled in versatility.

This is true, but he still needed training, it's not like he was able to do such things the moment he pulled it off for the first time. In hindsight, Tien's first Kamehameha was much better than Goku's first.

Tbf the zenkai boost was heavily emphasized during the early part of DBZ (especially in the Freeza Saga) when it served to justify Goku, Gohan and Vegeta getting stronger quickly and easily defeating opponents they had just lost to, so it was not at all useless.

It was indeed useless in mid-battle, because the whole point is that you have to go to a near-death state and then recover. Vegeta got it after having been thrash by Goku, Zarbon and then pierced by Crillin.
Likewise, Goku got it because he was nearly killed by Vegeta first, and by Ginyu then, and both had to recover to full healt in a way or another.
Vegeta's statement about growing in mid-battle also works to an extent, since no saiyan (other than in Super) grew so fast to even rbutally overcome characters with a similar power level.

Nen and chakra could interact normally in VS battles afaik, but I get your point.

Interact is different from being the same. As long as we're talking of a type of Chi that is just considered a weaponization of life-force, we can make all the assumptions we want, but the more a power system is developed in its mechanics, the harder it becomes to assume characters who bear a similar but different system are able to copy it on the fly.

Wouldn't Goku having mastered God Chi be a practical example that he could copy Akuma's chi in that situation?

As Votron said, Goku needed the ritual, and even Vegeta got it after his off-screen training with Whis.
If Goku could have copied it on the fly, he would have acquired it from Shin or Beerus himself.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'll vote for Akuma as well via Votron5's reasons above.

 

[Popted2]

Akuma FRA

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

sorry, but Goku doesn't solo this time, since it's against Piccolo's fight, if it was the super he would solo until the verse.

 

[jojo123]

Akuma FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Akuma FRA

Grace, started here