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I also said that SSG Goku alone nearly destroyed the Universe while clashing with Beerus.
Hence why SSG Goku's 3-A.
Hence why SSG Goku's 3-A.
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Goku shakes the entire world of void, or does he?
- Thread starter Deathscytthe
- Start date
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^See that is what i was talking about,out of context and lack of knowladges.
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Try to calm down, please. Let's not resort to insults.Dzhindzholia said:
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...Oh jesus.Dzhindzholia said:
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@Stryk3r1337
I am calm, but I can't ignore when someone provokes me and tells bullshit all the time.He literally cuts out of context and tries to blame me that i rate Goku lower.
I am calm, but I can't ignore when someone provokes me and tells bullshit all the time.He literally cuts out of context and tries to blame me that i rate Goku lower.
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@Dzhindzholia "Feats>statements,we can't put them higher without feats"
I guess Grand Priest is weaker than SSG Goku since he has no feats on that level and Whis's statements of Grand Priest being above Whis and in the Top 5 him can't be used.
When there are repeated, reliable statements of the exact same thing, we can use it.
Again, Supreme Kai and Vegeta have both stated that Jiren is stronger than anyone they've ever faced before. That would obviously include Infinite Zamasu, the last person they faced before Jiren.
Jiren's simple punch was the strongest attack Goku had ever seen, which should put him above Infinite Zamasu.
Official promo calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history. This means he's mightier than Infinite Zamasu, the previous foe.
Also when you compare Beerus and Whis's reactions when feeling Jiren's power vs when they felt Infinite Zamasu's power, it is very obvious they view Jiren as stronger.
I guess Grand Priest is weaker than SSG Goku since he has no feats on that level and Whis's statements of Grand Priest being above Whis and in the Top 5 him can't be used.
When there are repeated, reliable statements of the exact same thing, we can use it.
Again, Supreme Kai and Vegeta have both stated that Jiren is stronger than anyone they've ever faced before. That would obviously include Infinite Zamasu, the last person they faced before Jiren.
Jiren's simple punch was the strongest attack Goku had ever seen, which should put him above Infinite Zamasu.
Official promo calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history. This means he's mightier than Infinite Zamasu, the previous foe.
Also when you compare Beerus and Whis's reactions when feeling Jiren's power vs when they felt Infinite Zamasu's power, it is very obvious they view Jiren as stronger.
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Doesn't even matter if this feat is 4-A because Goku will still be low 2-C at the end of the day and its not like this feat really matters at this point.
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Couldn't have said it better myself, Ryu. While feats>statements, that doens't mean we can neglect all statements, especially if said statements are consistent with the anime and are repeated numerous times.
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My dudes lets just all chill
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@Therefir The Galaxy level+ is using OBD's power chart. Using VSBW's, it is high end 4-B to baseline 4-A
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Using the full universe, it is 3-B.
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This thread is a dumpster fire.
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I heavily agree with @Ryukama.
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"That would obviously include Infinite Zamasu, the last person they faced before Jiren."
Hell,no,my whole point of DBS downgrade was,not to scale them to IZ,how do you know that it includes IZ?They didn't even managed to fight IZ,they were stomped instantly due to them being exhausted and weaker then IZ.
"Official promo calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history"
I see no official promo here.
" guess Grand Priest is weaker than SSG Goku since he has no feats on that level and Whis's statements of Grand Priest being above Whis and in the Top 5 him can't be used."
Grand Priest have nothing to do with this,he is stated to be above Whis(whis himself stated)and there is nothing to deny it.
"Also when you compare Beerus and Whis's reactions when feeling Jiren's power vs when they felt Infinite Zamasu's power, it is very obvious they view Jiren as stronger."
Beerus never met IZ.I want see Beerus's reaction when he will face IZ on his own.These reaction things are not enough honestly.Do you Remember shinjins reactions in DBZ?.Beerus maby afraid that none from his team will stand a chance against Jiren,that's why he has that reaction and as i mentioned he never met IZ (he just felt his power in the present timeline while Zamasu entered it only slightly).
Hell,no,my whole point of DBS downgrade was,not to scale them to IZ,how do you know that it includes IZ?They didn't even managed to fight IZ,they were stomped instantly due to them being exhausted and weaker then IZ.
"Official promo calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history"
I see no official promo here.
" guess Grand Priest is weaker than SSG Goku since he has no feats on that level and Whis's statements of Grand Priest being above Whis and in the Top 5 him can't be used."
Grand Priest have nothing to do with this,he is stated to be above Whis(whis himself stated)and there is nothing to deny it.
"Also when you compare Beerus and Whis's reactions when feeling Jiren's power vs when they felt Infinite Zamasu's power, it is very obvious they view Jiren as stronger."
Beerus never met IZ.I want see Beerus's reaction when he will face IZ on his own.These reaction things are not enough honestly.Do you Remember shinjins reactions in DBZ?.Beerus maby afraid that none from his team will stand a chance against Jiren,that's why he has that reaction and as i mentioned he never met IZ (he just felt his power in the present timeline while Zamasu entered it only slightly).
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@Dz
They still faced him though.... Even when they were severely weakened and such, they still fought him. That is what matters for the statement to scale to him. Them tanking hits from IZ at the time is an outlier, but a canon outlier, and they have an idea how tough he hits. Saying he was hit harder than anything before would include IZ as they tanked hits from him before.
Secondly, there was no reason for the " Hell no " . There is no need for attitude here.
They still faced him though.... Even when they were severely weakened and such, they still fought him. That is what matters for the statement to scale to him. Them tanking hits from IZ at the time is an outlier, but a canon outlier, and they have an idea how tough he hits. Saying he was hit harder than anything before would include IZ as they tanked hits from him before.
Secondly, there was no reason for the " Hell no " . There is no need for attitude here.
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Fought him?I didnt see a fight,i saw how IZ stomped them instantly.They never tanked hits from him if i dont forget.And if so,low2c durability for base and exhausted Goku from Zamasu arc?
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But...
He has Low 2-C Durability already.
He has Low 2-C Durability already.
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@Antorus ... Via scaling to IZ, which he thinks is a false reason.
@Dz Fighting something can result in a stomp. A stomp =/= it isn't a fight. Lambabetta vs Featherine is a "fight" technically, but it was a horrific stomp , just for a specific example . If they didn't tanked it, they would've died, but they survived and were able to leave before Zen'o desftroyed IZ and the timeline involved..Tanking it means Goku remembered the pain, and him stating it's the strongest he ever felt, would include IZ unless specific implications states otherwise. Beerus' wasn't as shocked feeling IZ's power as was Jiren's... And you are assuming he was scared for the fighters rather than Jiren. We have the same exact quote " All this power coming from one fighter ?! " in XV2, when he encounters Jiren. Problem with it ? He isn't in the ToP here, just a random encounter.
@Dz Fighting something can result in a stomp. A stomp =/= it isn't a fight. Lambabetta vs Featherine is a "fight" technically, but it was a horrific stomp , just for a specific example . If they didn't tanked it, they would've died, but they survived and were able to leave before Zen'o desftroyed IZ and the timeline involved..Tanking it means Goku remembered the pain, and him stating it's the strongest he ever felt, would include IZ unless specific implications states otherwise. Beerus' wasn't as shocked feeling IZ's power as was Jiren's... And you are assuming he was scared for the fighters rather than Jiren. We have the same exact quote " All this power coming from one fighter ?! " in XV2, when he encounters Jiren. Problem with it ? He isn't in the ToP here, just a random encounter.
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@Dzhindzholia
Jiren is stronger than anyone they faced before. Infinite Zamasu was the last major antagonist that they faced before Jiren. It includes Infinite Zamasu. To face someone means to confront them. Yeah IZ stomped them. But they still faced him nonetheless.
^Ditto with Vegeta and Goku stating the exact same thing.
That is Herms's translation of the official promo. It calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history. Infinite Zamasu was a foe in DB history. He was the last major foe before Jiren. They were obviously referring to him as well.
I'm using your own silly logic. You say Jiren needs actual feats and that repeated statements of his power aren't enough. Well Grand Priest has no feats, just repeated statements of his power. And why is Whis's word the be all end all, yet Word of God and a heavy implication from Whis means nothing?
Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's power and he hardly reacted at all. Beerus felt Jiren's power, was flabbergasted and even said he was shocked how just one person had so much power.
Even if you want to say "Beerus was just scared Jiren would beat them" (even though Beerus was scared many times of people beating Team U7, yet never spoke of their power the way he spoke of Jiren's) then that makes it worse since clearly Beerus wasn't concerned for his safety when he felt Infinite Zamasu's power since he wasn't reacting like that.
There are 6 major points for Jiren being above Infinite Zamasu. Even one manages to be completely discarded there are still the other ones to deal with.
Jiren is stronger than anyone they faced before. Infinite Zamasu was the last major antagonist that they faced before Jiren. It includes Infinite Zamasu. To face someone means to confront them. Yeah IZ stomped them. But they still faced him nonetheless.
^Ditto with Vegeta and Goku stating the exact same thing.
That is Herms's translation of the official promo. It calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history. Infinite Zamasu was a foe in DB history. He was the last major foe before Jiren. They were obviously referring to him as well.
I'm using your own silly logic. You say Jiren needs actual feats and that repeated statements of his power aren't enough. Well Grand Priest has no feats, just repeated statements of his power. And why is Whis's word the be all end all, yet Word of God and a heavy implication from Whis means nothing?
Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's power and he hardly reacted at all. Beerus felt Jiren's power, was flabbergasted and even said he was shocked how just one person had so much power.
Even if you want to say "Beerus was just scared Jiren would beat them" (even though Beerus was scared many times of people beating Team U7, yet never spoke of their power the way he spoke of Jiren's) then that makes it worse since clearly Beerus wasn't concerned for his safety when he felt Infinite Zamasu's power since he wasn't reacting like that.
There are 6 major points for Jiren being above Infinite Zamasu. Even one manages to be completely discarded there are still the other ones to deal with.
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@AntorusTheBurningThrone
Read the whole sentecne.
Read the whole sentecne.
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I did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-XEMg9GhE
Son Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta took IZ's Blast. And they were weakened.
Sure, Mai and Bulma did also get hit. However, Gowasu's Protection Barrier might've helped just a little bit, despite it not fully working against Zamasu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-XEMg9GhE
Son Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta took IZ's Blast. And they were weakened.
Sure, Mai and Bulma did also get hit. However, Gowasu's Protection Barrier might've helped just a little bit, despite it not fully working against Zamasu.
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@Ryukama
"I'm using your own silly logic"
What your language bro,i never called you silly or stupid or whatever.
Dont involve GP in that Discussion it is only about Goku,IZ and Jiren.
"Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's power and he hardly reacted at all. Beerus felt Jiren's power, was flabbergasted and even said he was shocked how just one person had so much power."
As i already mentioned Beerus never faced Zamasu,this point is invalid.
Honestly,how can someone be powerscaled from non-corporeal character that became the universe itself and even affected future timeline?Jiren has 0 feats that puts him even close to this,also Goku.
"I'm using your own silly logic"
What your language bro,i never called you silly or stupid or whatever.
Dont involve GP in that Discussion it is only about Goku,IZ and Jiren.
"Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's power and he hardly reacted at all. Beerus felt Jiren's power, was flabbergasted and even said he was shocked how just one person had so much power."
As i already mentioned Beerus never faced Zamasu,this point is invalid.
Honestly,how can someone be powerscaled from non-corporeal character that became the universe itself and even affected future timeline?Jiren has 0 feats that puts him even close to this,also Goku.
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@AntorusTheBurningThrone
That is either PIS,either IZ didnt want to kill them fast.If it was legit,base Goku would already be low2C.But he isn't,in this wiki.
That is either PIS,either IZ didnt want to kill them fast.If it was legit,base Goku would already be low2C.But he isn't,in this wiki.
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"either IZ didnt want to kill them fast"
Yeah, no. Pretty sure he wanted them all dead, or at least defeated enough to give up.
Yeah, no. Pretty sure he wanted them all dead, or at least defeated enough to give up.
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I'm not calling you as a person silly. I'm calling the argument you're using silly. I'm not complaining about you responding to my comment with a sarcastic "Hell no". I apologize if that offended you though.
I involve Grand Priest because again, with your line of reasoning, he's weaker than SSG Goku.
Beerus didn't face Infinite Zamasu but he felt his power. But fine. The Beerus point is irrelevant. We still got 4 explicit statements, one of which is WoG, that Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu.
Non-corporeal or not, Infinite Zamasu has strength and power. Other characters in DB have greater strength and power than him. That's how we can powerscale.
When Jiren is repeatedly stated to be above Infinite Zamasu, feats don't matter. Again, Grand Priest doesn't have any feats on the level of SSG. That doesn't mean we can't powerscale Grand Priest as above SSG.
To be honest, no one would have a problem saying Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu if he were featless. The fact that he has this insane feat that would powerscale to others brings people this incredulity. Causing them to hype IZ up as this ultra god tier no one scales to when this clearly isn't the case.
I involve Grand Priest because again, with your line of reasoning, he's weaker than SSG Goku.
Beerus didn't face Infinite Zamasu but he felt his power. But fine. The Beerus point is irrelevant. We still got 4 explicit statements, one of which is WoG, that Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu.
Non-corporeal or not, Infinite Zamasu has strength and power. Other characters in DB have greater strength and power than him. That's how we can powerscale.
When Jiren is repeatedly stated to be above Infinite Zamasu, feats don't matter. Again, Grand Priest doesn't have any feats on the level of SSG. That doesn't mean we can't powerscale Grand Priest as above SSG.
To be honest, no one would have a problem saying Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu if he were featless. The fact that he has this insane feat that would powerscale to others brings people this incredulity. Causing them to hype IZ up as this ultra god tier no one scales to when this clearly isn't the case.
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Jiren has a feat?Where?I only know Goku's shaking TWOV,that's it.I already told you my opinion about these "statements".I guess no one is going to believe that they are no where near IZ befor Kishi himself sates it in the interview.
Honestly i have no power to discuss this,we are going in circles,i already told everything,lets say with our own opinions.That's it.
Honestly i have no power to discuss this,we are going in circles,i already told everything,lets say with our own opinions.That's it.
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"Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's power and he hardly reacted at all. Beerus felt Jiren's power, was flabbergasted and even said he was shocked how just one person had so much power."
As i already mentioned Beerus never faced Zamasu,this point is invalid.
Beerus still felt IZ's energy though as IZ was beginning to leech into the main timeline. Both he and Whis are able to sense it and neither of them were nearly as concerned or impressed with his power as when Jiren powered up in the tournament.
As i already mentioned Beerus never faced Zamasu,this point is invalid.
Beerus still felt IZ's energy though as IZ was beginning to leech into the main timeline. Both he and Whis are able to sense it and neither of them were nearly as concerned or impressed with his power as when Jiren powered up in the tournament.
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Jiren also shook the World of Void. He doesn't have feats on the level of IZ. That doesn't matter when Jiren powerscales to IZ though.
Again, there are 4 explicit statements that Jiren is above Infinite Zamasu, one of them being WoG.
The only thing you've ever said about these "statements" (no idea why the quotations) is outright denying that U7 faced IZ. Except they did. Getting stomped by someone doesn't mean you didn't face someone. Facing someone simply means to confront them.
Even ignoring those 3 statements, there is the 4th which just outright calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history.
I'll drop this too and you're of course entitled to your opinion. However when your opinion is based on nothing but just being in denial, don't expect our profiles to reflect it.
Again, there are 4 explicit statements that Jiren is above Infinite Zamasu, one of them being WoG.
The only thing you've ever said about these "statements" (no idea why the quotations) is outright denying that U7 faced IZ. Except they did. Getting stomped by someone doesn't mean you didn't face someone. Facing someone simply means to confront them.
Even ignoring those 3 statements, there is the 4th which just outright calls Jiren the mightiest foe in DB history.
I'll drop this too and you're of course entitled to your opinion. However when your opinion is based on nothing but just being in denial, don't expect our profiles to reflect it.
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Zamasu Fans ruining stuff.
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Zamasu Fans are only doing this cause Zamasu became the Universe, so they think he's all Powerful, or some shit.
That, or they think Jiren's boring.
That, or they think Jiren's boring.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Code:
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Close this, please.
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@Cal Zamasu is in my opinion the best written villain in DB. (Not necessarily my favorite. I like Frieza and Cell more. But I think he was written the best out of all the villains). I love Zamasu. I'm a major Zamasu fan. But if I based my powerscaling on how much I liked characters, Piccolo would stomp Champa.
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@Cal if there's people out there that like Sakura from Naruto, the chances of Zamasu having a fandom is likely much higher. Heck, you're talking to one of them right now.
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This thread has diverted from it's original purpose... For sure.
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@Ryu. And to think my opinion of you went up from the 12 Angry Men thing... ovo jk
@Glass. But...I like Sakura... Oh, you meant character-wise. Never mind ovo.
@Glass. But...I like Sakura... Oh, you meant character-wise. Never mind ovo.
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