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Gojo and Sukuna Speed Upgrade

Arkenis

Arkenis

They/Them
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I will link calcs soon.
Gojo and Sukuna should be higher than supersonic+, right? Let's say, there were no calcs substantiating their combat speed being higher than supersonic+ (there is). Okay, cool, but they have the feats to show they blitz supersonic+ characters numerous times. Rather than me throwing random calcs, where is the logic in not upgrading them to baseline hypersonic, and if we're willing to accept hypersonic as a baseline, then why not acknowledge an at least rating, given the feats? We already upscale characters' ap through one shots, I see no reason why characters around Mach 3, getting blitzed shouldn't scale them to Hypersonic. It doesn't contradict Mach 3 cap, it doesn't invalidate some feat since these two blitz everyone they fight, and the verse treats them as being faster than everyone else, why shouldn't we?

Here are times they blitzed characters, which, as of right now scale to supersonic+. Please note a decent chunk of Sukuna's feats are while he's weakened from the Gojo fight and Yuji's punches.
Gojo
Blitzes Toji, a stated character capable of handling everything at that speed, in reference to Mach 3 Naoya.

Sukuna
Blitzes Jogo, a character stated likely faster than Naobito, the fastest sorcerer.
Blitzes Ryu, a character comparable to Yuta.
Blitzes Choso, twice
Blitzes Maki, who is equal to Toji and could react to Naoya's Mach 3 speed.
Blitzes Yorozu's attacks
Blitzes Kashimo, a character with improved agility due to increased activity of electrical signals in the brain​
Click to expand...

So yeah, there is no reason we should keep them at Supersonic+ combat speed. Their perception speed should also get an upgrade as it's plain as day Gojo states he could hit BF if it was just a timeframe thing and his perception of time is already greater by a large amount and Sukuna scales to him. Their speed sections would look like this more or less.

Sukuna
Speed: At least Supersonic+ (Superior to Yuji. Blitzed the Finger Bearer. Was imperceptible to Megumi, having appeared behind him) | At least supersonic+, likely far higher (Should be faster than before, easily traversed Shibuya for hundreds of meters to save Haruta. Capable of fending off an awakened Maki and an enhanced Yuji simultaneously) | At least Hypersonic, likely far higher (Comparable to Gojo. Can keep up with Mythical Beast Amber Kashimo and even dodged his attacks while heavily injured. Capable of easily reacting to Kashimo's attacks after reincarnating his true body and ridding himself of his injuries), Massively Hypersonic+ Perception Speed (He and Gojo are both able to activate their Domains at the same time three times and only once did Sukuna's activation lagged behind due to focusing on healing his body first than his cursed technique)

Gojo
Speed: Hypersonic (Casually dodged and reacted to Toji, moving several meters before Toji noticed) | At least Hypersonic (Satoru Gojo is the fastest Jujutsu sorcerer of the modern era. He can keep up with Full Power Sukuna. Sukuna was impressed by Satoru's maneuverability even while he was enhanced by his Domain. Was able to dodge and block Piercing Blood as well), higher while using Domain Expansion, higher Travel Speed with Blue (Surprised a Domain-enhanced Sukuna with his speed), Massively Hypersonic+ Perception Speed (Gojo confirms if Black Flash required a timeframe activation alone then he should be able to hit it, the timeframe being 0.000001 seconds. Furthermore, Gojo's ability to process the world is far above others in general, being known to process a minute within an "instant" compared to others)
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3d0380fb32e1b11ff43384afbb93b4c5.gif

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Pretty sure you need to be like, actually close the baseline value of Hypersonic to be able to upscale to it, like upscaling from mach 4 and above.

Gojo and Sukuna are blitzing like, mach 2 characters?
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Toji and Maki's currently accepted values are mach 2.8 and besides Gojo and Sukuna themselves, no one upscales over them.
Click to expand...
That's not the accepted value, that's a value they scale above. The full context is them scaling to Mach 3. Anyway, this would still address that.
 
Arkenis said:
That's not the accepted value, that's a value they scale above. The full context is them scaling to Mach 3. Anyway, this would still address that.
Click to expand...
You know how contested Maki upscaling from Naoya's Mach 3 is, considering she literally had to rely on precog (The ones that Toji also has) to even be able to evade him in the first place, and how mach 3 isn't his standard speed in the first place, and yada yada

Plus, even if they upscaled over mach 3, we generally only allow upscaling if the gap is x1.2 or lower. Anything higher and you're really just stuck with an "At least"
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
You know how contested Maki upscaling from Naoya's Mach 3 is, considering she literally had to rely on precog (The ones that Toji also has) to even be able to evade him in the first place, and how mach 3 isn't his standard speed in the first place, and yada yada
Click to expand...
This only supports my argument though. Sukuna can blitz Maki's precog and Gojo can too. Not gonna act like it's basic precog, it's precog to predict movement for hundreds of meters.
 
Arkenis said:
This only supports my argument though. Sukuna can blitz Maki's precog and Gojo can too. Not gonna act like it's basic precog, it's precog to predict movement for hundreds of meters.
Click to expand...
Are we like, gonna ignore the whole "Naoya's mach 3 requires him to just move in a straight line" and the gap not being in the upscaling range?

Like, cool, Gojo and Sukuna are >mach 3, this proves they're >mach 5 because??
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Are we like, gonna ignore the whole "Naoya's mach 3 requires him to just move in a straight line" and the gap not being in the upscaling range?
Click to expand...
And Maki reacted to him. How does everyone forget her doing that

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Like, cool, Gojo and Sukuna are >mach 3, this proves they're >mach 5 because??
Click to expand...
Where is the logic in this skepticism? Like genuinely, we have several feats for them blitzing these characters, characters who amplified their perception: Kashimo has passed beyond the human realm, Maki can sense hundreds of meters away and sense the air move.
 
Arkenis said:
And Maki reacted to him. How does everyone forget her doing that
Click to expand...
Only AFTER she gained the precog, without it, she couldn't do anything.

Blitzing someone who NEEDS precog to dodge mach 3 doesn't at all mean you're magnitudes higher than mach 3?
Kashimo has passed beyond the human realm,
Click to expand...
Ig Kashimo is faster than Gojo now But literally again, Maki is slower than mach 3 Naoya, this doesn't give him much.
Maki can sense hundreds of meters away and sense the air move.
Click to expand...
And this is supposed to help her precog dodge someone who isn't that far away cause?
Like, attacking from hundreds of meters away kinda gives you ample time to dodge, what Sukuna did, doesn't.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Only AFTER she gained the precog, without it, she couldn't do anything.
Click to expand...
And Sukuna blitzed her with that same precog. Where is the disconnect lmao?

Eden_Warlock99 said:
But literally again, Maki is slower than Mach 3 Naoya, this doesn't give him much
Click to expand...
In combat maybe yeah? But I'm talking about perception. Her perception > Naoya.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Ig Kashimo is faster than Gojo now But literally again, Maki is slower than Mach 3 Naoya, this doesn't give him much.
Click to expand...
What. Just random skepticism for no reason

Eden_Warlock99 said:
And this is supposed to help her precog dodge someone who isn't that far away from her cause?
Click to expand...
He was hundreds of meters away. Literally crossed the town to hit her

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Like, attacking from hundreds of meters away kinda gives you ample time to dodge, what Sukuna did, doesn't.
Click to expand...
Bro we are NOT talking about dodging, we are talking about their perception.
 
Arkenis said:
Bro we are NOT talking about dodging, we are talking about their perception.
Click to expand...
:I

It's not perception speed, she "feels" where Naoya is coming from and acts from there. That's why it's precog?
He was hundreds of meters away. Literally crossed the town to hit her
Click to expand...
You don't see how someone, who can sense said hundreds of meters away, would have an easier time dodging that, than dodging someone who's a just few feet away?
 
I agree with giving gojo hypersonic perception speed seeing as he outright says he can apply his cursed energy in the timeframe a black flash needs. As for hypersonic speed, It seems reasonable maki has mach 3 perception speed due to precog and sukuna blitzed her and although it was close quarters(but not hugging distance) I think saying sukuna is 2x faster is fine.
 
Speed: Hypersonic (Casually dodged and reacted to Toji, moving several meters before Toji noticed)
Click to expand...

At the risk of Gun murdering me in an alleyway I will say that this feat is clearly performed with Blue. "Oh but later he says that he is still working on his teleportation" he is specifically talking about long distance tp and earlier in the arc we see him use Blue to propel himself forward.

Overall this whole upgrade feels pretty half-assed and I think it'd be better if we get some actual calcs for these two before we do anything with their speeds (seriously just use Sukuna blitzing Piercing Blood, it's like the most blatant feat in existance)
 
Giannysmag said:
At the risk of Gun murdering in an alleyway I will say that this feat is clearly performed with Blue. "Oh but later he says that he is still working on his teleportation" he is specifically talking about long distance tp and earlier in the arc we see him use Blue to propel himself forward.

Overall this whole upgrade feels pretty half-assed and I think it'd be better if we get some actual calcs for these two before we do anything with their speeds (seriously just use Sukuna blitzing Piercing Blood, it's like the most blatant feat in existance)
Click to expand...
Hmm is sukuna blitzing maki not enough for an upgrade? with precog she can react to mach 3 so sukuna blitzing her with a couple meters of distance between the two should already quality sukuna for 2x speed imo.
 
Jaynic1 said:
Hmm is sukuna blitzing maki not enough for an upgrade? with precog she can react to mach 3 so sukuna blitzing her with a couple meters of distance between the two should already quality sukuna for 2x speed imo.
Click to expand...
That was most likely just cause of the change in tempo (him suddenly getting significantly faster) catching Maki by surprise, since immideatly after that Maki is able to react to him again (twice in fact)
 
We don't allow upscaling from a gap this large. While there is no official number, an unspoken rule is that so long as the difference is around 1.1-1.3x, we can do upscaling.

If it's more than that, we don't upscale more often than not. But it's a case by case thing for sure.

Already tried to have some upscaling with a smaller/similar gap and had far better blitzes than what you have here. This is not enough for any upscaling here. He's not even blitzing people who blitzed Mach 3. Most of the OP points are irrelevant. If he blitzes people who scale to Mach 3, of course he'll blitzes others that scale to it as well.

Kashimo is probably the fastest one there, but that wasn't a blitz, it was just outpacing. Sukuna blocked Kashimo's line of sight and got behind him. Kashimo reacted to this and even started an attack, right before Sukuna struck him because he's faster. If he did blitz him, Kashimo wouldn't have had time to turn around and start an attack.

Sukuna has no reason to scale to Gojo's perception. Activating a Domain isn't perception based. They need to make a hand sign to perform the technique. And nothing suggest that creating a Domain is tied to a person's perception speed in the first place.

The only way one could scale to perception speed is either a statement confirming their perception speed is equal, or a feat of a person blitzing the other's perception. Just fighting on par with each other doesn't mean anything. Sukuna has no reason to scale to that value based on reasons given in the OP.

However, I find Gojo's perception being that high as iffy. Being able to hit the timeframe consistently doesn't mean his perception is that fast. Many people can hit timeframes that are faster than their ability to perceive. Considering this is fiction as well, the difference can be far greater than what is allowed in reality.

Gojo would obviously know when he's going to try and hit that timeframe after all.
 
Giannysmag said:
At the risk of Gun murdering me in an alleyway I will say that this feat is clearly performed with Blue. "Oh but later he says that he is still working on his teleportation" he is specifically talking about long distance tp and earlier in the arc we see him use Blue to propel himself forward.
Click to expand...
He can be hypersonic with Blue in that arc then.

Giannysmag said:
Overall this whole upgrade feels pretty half-assed and I think it'd be better if we get some actual calcs for these two before we do anything with their speeds (seriously just use Sukuna blitzing Piercing Blood, it's like the most blatant feat in existance)
Click to expand...

It's not half assed. I've taken into account the failures of the supporters to calc such feats like Sukuna blitzing PB which, it seems no one's read Rusty's disagreement:

I'm going to have to reject this calculation as it is now.

Sukuna did not travel that distance in the time you're claiming. In fact, as you see in this page, the piercing blood is next to the debris that's further away than Sukuna. You can see that same debris in the panel where piercing blood is approaching Sukuna in the background. So yeah, it traveled a further distance than you're measuring.

Also, Choso is able to notice Sukuna is gone around the time the blood reaches the position we see. It's after that he gets impaled by him. You cannot use that position to begin with. Because nothing suggest that Choso noticed Sukuna was missing, and got impaled while the piercing blood was frozen in that spot.

It's fully possible that it traveled further than we saw. Because we cannot see the exact movement, you'd need the minimum distance Sukuna has the move to perform the feat. In this case, it would be Choso's focused FoV as Sukuna disappeared from his gaze. However, you need to find where the piercing blood is in relation to the debris.
Click to expand...

Other calcs can be presented here, but I don't see why we would rely on calcs as though they are more concrete than the feats and portrayal of the two. They aren't enough to portray one's speed, it's simply us calcing and assuming bs with some accuracy. Which, normally I'd agree with most calcs, but a lot of JJK speed feats are either done wrong, lack proper panel perspectives, or require us to assume the speed of something like PB.

Giannysmag said:
That was most likely just cause of the change in tempo (him suddenly getting significantly faster) catching Maki by surprise, since immideatly after that Maki is able to react to him again (twice in fact)
Click to expand...
She can sense everything around her, getting caught by surprise is impossible for her. We know Sukuna's ce fluctuates and this is clearly what happened here and dropped again right after due to his moment of ecstasy.

TheRustyOne said:
We don't allow upscaling from a gap this large. While there is no official number, an unspoken rule is that so long as the difference is around 1.1-1.3x, we can do upscaling.
Click to expand...
Where is the line draw when feats and the story portray it to be high? Just as an example, a couple meters traveled before a character with sos reactions can react is already a 2x difference. Maki's got perception for Mach 3 without us stacking another calc.

TheRustyOne said:
Already tried to have some upscaling with a smaller/similar gap and had far better blitzes than what you have here. This is not enough for any upscaling here. He's not even blitzing people who blitzed Mach 3. Most of the OP points are irrelevant. If he blitzes people who scale to Mach 3, of course he'll blitzes others that scale to it as well.
Click to expand...
I don't get this point. He can blitz people who can react to Mach 3, but that can't perceivably be more than a 1.3x difference?


TheRustyOne said:
Sukuna has no reason to scale to Gojo's perception. Activating a Domain isn't perception based. They need to make a hand sign to perform the technique. And nothing suggest that creating a Domain is tied to a person's perception speed in the first place.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about the hand signs, I'm referring to the activation aspect which requires manipulating their ce. Sukuna would have to do it equally to not be blitzed by it. Activating your domain requires realizing the innate domain and activating the cursed technique.

TheRustyOne said:
However, I find Gojo's perception being that high as iffy. Being able to hit the timeframe consistently doesn't mean his perception is that fast. Many people can hit timeframes that are faster than their ability to perceive. Considering this is fiction as well, the difference can be far greater than what is allowed in reality.
Click to expand...
That would be reasonable if we're talking about playing games or training to hit a target within a timeframe. We're talking about them flowing their ce within the 0.000001s timeframe, in the midst of combat. Gojo says he can do this at will, not that he can time it right like humans do with small timeframes.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be MHS reaction speed not perception speed since he's performing actions in those timeframes with his CE
 
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