Gohan vs Jiren

[CiscoTheSoto]

No this is misconstruing what gamma was saying completely. Him telling them to be careful is because after destroying the weak spot, cell max explodes, he's telling them that because they'll be caught in the explosion and die. Your idea is completely unfounded and cell max is never displayed getting weaker.

Still disagree and really don't see how his weak point wouldn't make him weaker.

Gogeta parried and dodged them casually with no effort. Goku and vegeta together couldn't parry a single one and broly vaporized their combined attack with two ki blasts. Goku and vegeta also got their clothes destroyed and battle damaged after a minor exchange with broly. There is no comparison.

Did you forget when SSB Goku parried several of Broly's stronger energy attacks after Broly had become a Super Saiyan? The Kamehameha and Galick Gun that Broly countered was with charged energy orbs, while Gogeta just parried weaker energy attacks. And damaged clothes isn't the best way to judge power.

Lmao now you're playing around. SSB is literally SSJ on top of SSG. Also ever heard of holding back?
Goku fought a guy who was stronger than beerus, he's a completely reliable source for broly's power.

Yea, but he didn't say "He's far stronger than Beerus" or "No way Beerus could defeat him". On the other hand, several characters have said that the Gods of Destruction couldn't defeat Jiren even before he broke his limits.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Still disagree and really don't see how his weak point wouldn't make him weaker.

Okay.

Did you forget when SSB Goku parried several of Broly's stronger energy attacks after Broly had become a Super Saiyan? The Kamehameha and Galick Gun that Broly countered was with charged energy orbs, while Gogeta just parried weaker energy attacks. And damaged clothes isn't the best way to judge power.

With effort. Also broly had a whole hour to get stronger while punching freeza.
Vegeta and Goku fought broly for like 50 seconds and they ate dirt as the end result and got beat up with their clothes torn. Gogeta was shown to be casual and portrayed to be superior to Goku and Vegeta against broly rampaging behind him.

Yea, but he didn't say "He's far stronger than Beerus" or "No way Beerus could defeat him". On the other hand, several characters have said that the Gods of Destruction couldn't defeat Jiren even before he broke his limits.

I don't even disagree with Jiren being stronger than broly. I'm only saying that broly is definitely stronger than beerus.

 

[Mickey1940]

Cell Max when he was released had the physical stats of Broly, who scales pretty far below Jiren already

After Gamma 2's Explosion, he was weakened to the point where Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan could damage him, both of which scale to SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, who are far far far FAR below the likes of Beerus, much less Broly, much less Jiren

It's pretty blatantly shown that Cell Max was physically weakened from the suicide attack. Final Ultimate Gohan facetanking a blow from someone barely on SSGSS Goku and Vegeta's level isn't anything impressive to Jiren

It's probably likely that Gohan can potentially scale to Jiren, but Jiren kinda massively outskills and outhaxes regardless

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Cell Max when he was released had the physical stats of Broly, who scales pretty far below Jiren already

After Gamma 2's Explosion, he was weakened to the point where Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan could damage him, both of which scale to SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, who are far far far FAR below the likes of Beerus, much less Broly, much less Jiren

It's pretty blatantly shown that Cell Max was physically weakened from the suicide attack. Final Ultimate Gohan facetanking a blow from someone barely on SSGSS Goku and Vegeta's level isn't anything impressive to Jiren

It's probably likely that Gohan can potentially scale to Jiren, but Jiren kinda massively outskills and outhaxes regardless

SH broly is at least comparable to regular full power Jiren since he's had a couple of years of training with whis and beerus. You could argue that broly is even stronger than jiren now since cell max being even stronger than broly seems to be a more impressive comparison than Jiren but I'll leave it at that.

No it isn't "blatantly shown" that he was weaker. He was just panting and that's it. Ultimate gohan never damaged cell max. If that is considered damage then krillin, 18, goten and trunks all damaged him and they scale. Also ultimate piccolo (who is close to gohan's power level) did absolutely no damage whatsoever to cell max's weak spot which has significantly less durability than his body.
Orange piccolo is stated by toriyama to be comparable to Goku and co, but gamma who is also scaling to Goku and vegeta got one shot by piccolo. Piccolo is also scaling to cell max who scales to the GoD level characters so that's further proof of piccolo scaling to Goku and vegeta at their strongest.
Further more, cell max vs gohan is stated to be the strongest fight in history which already puts it above UI Goku vs jiren which is consistent with the above. And Gohan is stated by both toriyama and piccolo that his hidden potential makes more powerful than anyone else.
So yeah Gohan one shots Jiren and being generous he's above Jiren and UI Goku who bullies Jiren.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump

 

[Mickey1940]

SH broly is at least comparable to regular full power Jiren since he's had a couple of years of training with whis and beerus. You could argue that broly is even stronger than jiren now since cell max being even stronger than broly seems to be a more impressive comparison than Jiren but I'll leave it at that.

No it isn't "blatantly shown" that he was weaker. He was just panting and that's it. Ultimate gohan never damaged cell max. If that is considered damage then krillin, 18, goten and trunks all damaged him and they scale. Also ultimate piccolo (who is close to gohan's power level) did absolutely no damage whatsoever to cell max's weak spot which has significantly less durability than his body.
Orange piccolo is stated by toriyama to be comparable to Goku and co, but gamma who is also scaling to Goku and vegeta got one shot by piccolo. Piccolo is also scaling to cell max who scales to the GoD level characters so that's further proof of piccolo scaling to Goku and vegeta at their strongest.
Further more, cell max vs gohan is stated to be the strongest fight in history which already puts it above UI Goku vs jiren which is consistent with the above. And Gohan is stated by both toriyama and piccolo that his hidden potential makes more powerful than anyone else.
So yeah Gohan one shots Jiren and being generous he's above Jiren and UI Goku who bullies Jiren.

I avoided this thread for a while since it was tiring but I gotta address this somewhat

SH Broly is unquantifiably stronger than he was during the Broly movie. Scaling him to FP Jiren when Base Jiren alone is already enough to handle Ikari LSSJ Broly is a massive outlier, especially when the former was toyed with, humiliated, and nearly 1 shot by UI Goku, who scales below FP Jiren already

You're also forgetting that during Goku and Vegeta's brief appearance in the movie, even after several years of training and (presumably) unlocking their respective Ultra Forms, Jiren was still considered a combatant that was extremely difficult to surpass, further reinforcing Jiren's strength

Cell Max was partially petrified, lost an arm, and was visibly injured by both Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan. He was visibly staggered by every single blow, even those not focused on his weak spot. Compared to his uninjured state, who is compared to Ikari LSSJ Broly, that's pretty obviously weaker.
Not only that, if Cell Max wasn't weakened by Gamma 2's suicide attack, then Gamma 2 would have died for nothing and the plot wouldn't make any sense

Once again, the authors are the same people who made the ******* God Scale, which has been debunked several times over, as well as the same people who claimed Dyspo was lightspeed when that speed was nearly surpassed by the likes of the Ginyu Force, PLUS they're the same people who constantly retcon Beerus to be the strongest being in U7 many times in the manga. Relying on that one claim despite how often authors spread misinformation shouldn't be the main argument you make, and it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Raw stats aside, you've also never addressed the fact that Gohan just gets massively outskilled and outvaried. Gohan's best skill feat is matching his dad blow for blow before the ToP. Jiren did the exact same, except this same Goku was much more skilled at this point in time plus had instinctive dodging AND instinctive attacks ON TOP of his already staggering martial prowess. That's not to mention that Jiren can just camp Gohan out by spamming eye blasts, which is in character, as well as just spamming paralysis and power impacts and knock him around panchiko style. Plus due to Jiren's fighting style of maximizing efficiency and power when he needs it, he likely outlasts Gohan as well, especially considering Gohan recently unlocked his new form and most likely doesn't have much experience with containing its strain (but that's my own headcanon so take it with a grain of salt if you want)

 

[Kin201]

It is confirmed the SH movie takes place after Granolah Arc. I'd say Gohan wins this comfortably.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

It is confirmed the SH movie takes place after Granolah Arc. I'd say Gohan wins this comfortably.

Yea, I mentioned this in the thread, but if it was proven that the events of the manga occur in the anime, then I'd give it to Gohan since the gap in power might be too much for Jiren to deal with. I'm not sure how much stronger the UI forms have gotten since Goku first activated UI in the ToP, though I don't believe the raw power of the form ever increased significantly, since Goku's training was all done to actively use the transformation at will. We'll just have to see how the new arc plays out and how much stronger everyone has gotten.

 

[Kin201]

The events of the manga will occur in the anime. We just need to wait until it returns.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

The events of the manga will occur in the anime. We just need to wait until it returns.

I wish they'd actually focus on animating the main story instead of focusing their effort on the crappy spin-off Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime which has horrendously inconsistent powerscaling, lackluster fights which only consist of firing single ki blasts and basic punches which all end up really boring.

 

[Vizer04]

Jiren FRA

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

SH Broly is unquantifiably stronger than he was during the Broly movie. Scaling him to FP Jiren when Base Jiren alone is already enough to handle Ikari LSSJ Broly is a massive outlier, especially when the former was toyed with, humiliated, and nearly 1 shot by UI Goku, who scales below FP Jiren already

Full power jiren's scaling comes from being stronger than beerus which is exactly the same as broly's, the only reaspn I consider Jiren to be stronger is because he also scales above belmod. It's entirely plausible no, imminent that broly could have surpassed jiren after years of training with whis and beerus, let alone reached his level.

You're also forgetting that during Goku and Vegeta's brief appearance in the movie, even after several years of training and (presumably) unlocking their respective Ultra Forms, Jiren was still considered a combatant that was extremely difficult to surpass, further reinforcing Jiren's strength

This says nothing about how they would fair against him now. They only referred to how difficult he was to beat for them back then.

Cell Max was partially petrified, lost an arm, and was visibly injured by both Orange Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan. He was visibly staggered by every single blow, even those not focused on his weak spot. Compared to his uninjured state, who is compared to Ikari LSSJ Broly, that's pretty obviously weaker.
Not only that, if Cell Max wasn't weakened by Gamma 2's suicide attack, then Gamma 2 would have died for nothing and the plot wouldn't make any sense

He wasn't partially petrified, that's the appearance of the wound. I don't understand, how is being injured by orange piccolo an anti feat? That's actually a feat for piccolo putting him on the level of the above GoD level characters. I adressed the ultimate gohan damaging cell max claims. Non of this is proof of cell max being weakened. He is definitely hindered by the loss of his arm but that doesn't affect his power output.
Yes gamma 2 did fail. He helped a bit by removing cell max's arm but again that isn't proof he got weaker especially when there's other proof that he didn't.

Once again, the authors are the same people who made the ******* God Scale, which has been debunked several times over, as well as the same people who claimed Dyspo was lightspeed when that speed was nearly surpassed by the likes of the Ginyu Force, PLUS they're the same people who constantly retcon Beerus to be the strongest being in U7 many times in the manga. Relying on that one claim despite how often authors spread misinformation shouldn't be the main argument you make, and it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Author statements are facts until contradicted. Just because they make mistakes doesn't make everything they say a mistake, they are true until proven otherwise.
Anyway the god scale was made by toriyama before any plans for super were made.
Dyspo's statement isn't even a contradiction, it's just a very underwhelming feat. I can't defend the beerus travesty however.

Raw stats aside, you've also never addressed the fact that Gohan just gets massively outskilled and outvaried. Gohan's best skill feat is matching his dad blow for blow before the ToP. Jiren did the exact same, except this same Goku was much more skilled at this point in time plus had instinctive dodging AND instinctive attacks ON TOP of his already staggering martial prowess. That's not to mention that Jiren can just camp Gohan out by spamming eye blasts, which is in character, as well as just spamming paralysis and power impacts and knock him around panchiko style. Plus due to Jiren's fighting style of maximizing efficiency and power when he needs it, he likely outlasts Gohan as well, especially considering Gohan recently unlocked his new form and most likely doesn't have much experience with containing its strain (but that's my own headcanon so take it with a grain of salt if you want)

I think you're massively overestimating how much skill actually plays a role in DB fights. You said it yourself gohan can fight and match the same Goku who fought in the tournament, even force him into kaioken. Gohan is held at high regard by both Goku and vegeta for his fighting ability. Piccolo believed he could be stronger than anyone at his best and so does toriyama. Regardless Jiren was either overpowering goku in UI or getting beat up by him.
Camp gohan out lmao. Even UI Goku could plow past jiren's glare which he absolutely does not spam. The rest is head canon.

Voting Gohan.

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[Vizer04]

Votes?

I already counted them.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Jiren FRA

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[jojo123]

Jiren FRA

 

[Mickey1940]

Full power jiren's scaling comes from being stronger than beerus which is exactly the same as broly's, the only reaspn I consider Jiren to be stronger is because he also scales above belmod. It's entirely plausible no, imminent that broly could have surpassed jiren after years of training with whis and beerus, let alone reached his level.


This says nothing about how they would fair against him now. They only referred to how difficult he was to beat for them back then.


He wasn't partially petrified, that's the appearance of the wound. I don't understand, how is being injured by orange piccolo an anti feat? That's actually a feat for piccolo putting him on the level of the above GoD level characters. I adressed the ultimate gohan damaging cell max claims. Non of this is proof of cell max being weakened. He is definitely hindered by the loss of his arm but that doesn't affect his power output.
Yes gamma 2 did fail. He helped a bit by removing cell max's arm but again that isn't proof he got weaker especially when there's other proof that he didn't.


Author statements are facts until contradicted. Just because they make mistakes doesn't make everything they say a mistake, they are true until proven otherwise.
Anyway the god scale was made by toriyama before any plans for super were made.
Dyspo's statement isn't even a contradiction, it's just a very underwhelming feat. I can't defend the beerus travesty however.


I think you're massively overestimating how much skill actually plays a role in DB fights. You said it yourself gohan can fight and match the same Goku who fought in the tournament, even force him into kaioken. Gohan is held at high regard by both Goku and vegeta for his fighting ability. Piccolo believed he could be stronger than anyone at his best and so does toriyama. Regardless Jiren was either overpowering goku in UI or getting beat up by him.
Camp gohan out lmao. Even UI Goku could plow past jiren's glare which he absolutely does not spam. The rest is head canon.

Voting Gohan.

BASE Jiren's scaling comes from surpassing Beerus. Once Jiren goes shirtless, he far surpasses his previous peak to the point where he could overpower UI Goku, who was toying with Base Jiren and could 1 shot him whenever he wanted

They meant it as he is still currently a challenge for both of them to fight against, despite never having another chance to meet him since the tournament.

Yes, he was partially petrified. Ultimate Gohan was able to stagger Cell Max with uppercuts, which is pretty much exactly what Orange Piccolo was doing. Cell Max statistically got weaker due to how Orange Piccolo is treated on this wiki. Orange Piccolo is stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta in their SSGSS states, who are both individually vastly inferior to the likes of Ikari LSSJ Broly as of the Broly Movie. Broly as a regular Super Saiyan could match SSJ Gogeta, who even in his Base form surpassed SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, then he stacked LSSJ and Gogeta needed SSGSS to match him, meaning Broly got an SSGSS equivalent boost on top of his already SSGSS level Base form.
So basically,
Healthy Cell Max = SSGSS Gogeta? > Ikari LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta >>> Base Gogeta > Broly Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Post Gamma 2 Sacrifice Cell Max > Orange Piccolo = Super Hero Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Sure you can argue that Goku and Vegeta are stronger at this point in time and thus Orange Piccolo should be stronger than their Broly Movie keys, but they need to cover an SSGSS level value at bare minimum to close the scaling chain, which is highly unlikely
So yeah, it's pretty clear that Cell Max got weaker. Getting injured by a character that much weaker than Gogeta, much less UI Goku and UE Vegeta, means he definitely got weaker.

I agree with that, but I generally prefer to leave author statements to the side if other evidence don't support it. If this were any other series, I would use author statements as my main points, but considering how silly author mistakes have been over the years, I feel like Dragon Ball should be one of the few exceptions. Like yes, author statements hold merit, but certainly not as much as scaling and feats.
And yes, the Beerus travesty is stupid lmao.

It's actually pretty in character for Jiren to spam range, since he's done that several times even against UI Goku, who he didn't have an AP advantage over.
The reason why I say that Jiren outskills is because Jiren was capable of matching UI Goku, someone with superior martial arts skill compared to Gohan, AS WELL AS scaling Ultra Instinct's instinctive reaction, both for dodging and attacks. Jiren was able to keep up despite not having access to UI himself. Gohan doesn't have any skill feats to match this. Not only that, but Jiren has plenty of other tools like paralysis and energy/effort conservation to give him an edge and circumvent any AP disadvantage he might have against Gohan.

To my knowledge, the only piece of evidence we have supporting Gohan's AP advantage is the previously mentioned author statements of "Gohan vs Cell Max was the strongest battle in history", which is inherently unreliable, especially since Jiren starts out far FAR higher on the scaling chain than Gohan does.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

BASE Jiren's scaling comes from surpassing Beerus. Once Jiren goes shirtless, he far surpasses his previous peak to the point where he could overpower UI Goku, who was toying with Base Jiren and could 1 shot him whenever he wanted

I am well aware. Shirtless jiren/hidden power scaling comes from stomping his previous base form. Gohan's scaling comes from stomping to higher degree cell max who is even stronger than a broly who should have supassed jiren at the very least to actually just scaling above UI Goku and orange piccolo via piccolo's statement, toriyama's statement and the strongest history statement.

Yes, he was partially petrified. Ultimate Gohan was able to stagger Cell Max with uppercuts, which is pretty much exactly what Orange Piccolo was doing. Cell Max statistically got weaker due to how Orange Piccolo is treated on this wiki. Orange Piccolo is stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta in their SSGSS states, who are both individually vastly inferior to the likes of Ikari LSSJ Broly as of the Broly Movie. Broly as a regular Super Saiyan could match SSJ Gogeta, who even in his Base form surpassed SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, then he stacked LSSJ and Gogeta needed SSGSS to match him, meaning Broly got an SSGSS equivalent boost on top of his already SSGSS level Base form.
So basically,
Healthy Cell Max = SSGSS Gogeta? > Ikari LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta >>> Base Gogeta > Broly Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Post Gamma 2 Sacrifice Cell Max > Orange Piccolo = Super Hero Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Sure you can argue that Goku and Vegeta are stronger at this point in time and thus Orange Piccolo should be stronger than their Broly Movie keys, but they need to cover an SSGSS level value at bare minimum to close the scaling chain, which is highly unlikely
So yeah, it's pretty clear that Cell Max got weaker. Getting injured by a character that much weaker than Gogeta, much less UI Goku and UE Vegeta, means he definitely got weaker

That scan doesn't prove anything. That's literally what his wound looks like.
Literally everyone was able to stagger cell max, even krillin and fat gotenks and 18, are they all now blue level? Of course not, especially when potential unleashed piccolo, who is not far behind ultimate gohan couldn't even scratch cell max's weak spot.
The way orange piccolo is treated on the wiki is wrong and I should fix that, he doesn't scale to blue forms whatsoever, that completely contradicts the gamma scaling. But even using that you're still wrong because the wiki actually scales the blue forms to orange piccolo not the other way around, so prange piccolo is actually scaling to full power cell max.
Orange piccolo's actual scaling is to Goku and vegeta's instinct forms putting him comparable to hidden power Jiren or at the very least a higher degree of power than movie broly if you want to downplay.

It's actually pretty in character for Jiren to spam range, since he's done that several times even against UI Goku, who he didn't have an AP advantage over.
The reason why I say that Jiren outskills is because Jiren was capable of matching UI Goku, someone with superior martial arts skill compared to Gohan, AS WELL AS scaling Ultra Instinct's instinctive reaction, both for dodging and attacks. Jiren was able to keep up despite not having access to UI himself. Gohan doesn't have any skill feats to match this. Not only that, but Jiren has plenty of other tools like paralysis and energy/effort conservation to give him an edge and circumvent any AP disadvantage he might have against Gohan.

He doesn't spam range, he's just shooting ki blasts, which is irrelevant when they do no damage.
That doesn't give jiren a big advantage especially when he actually got whooped by UI Goku when they were both comparable strength wise. Also if you want to talk battle strategy, gohan has the special beam canon which just instantly one shots any universe level+ character.

To my knowledge, the only piece of evidence we have supporting Gohan's AP advantage is the previously mentioned author statements of "Gohan vs Cell Max was the strongest battle in history", which is inherently unreliable, especially since Jiren starts out far FAR higher on the scaling chain than Gohan does.

I explained the scaling pretty well it should be clear now.

 

[Vizer04]

This is way too confusing

I read all the arguments from both sides though (i had to read a lot) and i will change my vote to Inconclusive. Gohan may have the AP advantage but Jiren is vastly more skilled than Goku's son.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The AP gap between them is too great for skill to matter at all. And jiren isn't so much more skilled as to beat someone who is far stronger. Look at what happened with UI Goku before Jiren got his hidden power amp.

 

[Vizer04]

jiren isn't so much more skilled as to beat someone who is far stronger. Look at what happened with UI Goku before Jiren got his hidden power amp.

Gohan isn't nearly as skilled as UI Goku

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Gohan isn't nearly as skilled as UI Goku

Gohan is just as skilled if not more skilled than Goku. He overwhelmed him into kaioken right before the TOP. He is hyped up by Goku vegeta piccolo and even toriyama as the strongest fighter if he capitalises on his potential.

 

[WarriorofMite]

Jiren fra

 

[Golden_Void]

I think any statements in the movie strength comparing Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta don't include UI. For that to be the case:

1. Goku would need to be capable of going in and out the form as he pleases, right now he can't even do that with omen.
2. Putting a character against Goku and Vegeta implies the duo are on the same level. Kaioken and SSBE were shown to be equal in the ToP and they can willingly enter these forms. Even standard SSB.
3. We ignore that MUI is several >>>>>>>>>>>>> above SSB KKx20 Goku

Jiren was able to take hits from this form before he broke his limits (granted he was getting trashed, but that did not prevent Frieza from getting upgrades). If we take into consideration that Jiren most likely trains religiously and the fact he's fresh, and that Gohan hasn't trained and got weaker and the only thing he has is more raw power, I give it to Jiren 7/10.

 

[Lynieryz]

Voldemort FRA

 

[Vizer04]

I'm convinced by these new arguments, i return my vote to Jiren FRA

 

[Vizer04]

Son Gohan: 4 (@FluffyCreatureZ, @Dr._whiteee and @Kin201 and @Gohanblanco217)

Jiren the Gray: 7 (@CiscoTheSoto, @Mickey1940, @Greatsage13th and @jojo123, @WarriorofMite, @Golden_Void and @Vizer04)

Inconclusive: 1 (@Chianli)

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It seems that Super Hero movie is gonna get adapted in the manga starting with a prequel and this means that Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo are gonna eventually appear in the manga as well .

On Topic : voting Gohan

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think any statements in the movie strength comparing Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta don't include UI. For that to be the case:

1. Goku would need to be capable of going in and out the form as he pleases, right now he can't even do that with omen.
2. Putting a character against Goku and Vegeta implies the duo are on the same level. Kaioken and SSBE were shown to be equal in the ToP and they can willingly enter these forms. Even standard SSB.
3. We ignore that MUI is several >>>>>>>>>>>>> above SSB KKx20 Goku

Jiren was able to take hits from this form before he broke his limits (granted he was getting trashed, but that did not prevent Frieza from getting upgrades). If we take into consideration that Jiren most likely trains religiously and the fact he's fresh, and that Gohan hasn't trained and got weaker and the only thing he has is more raw power, I give it to Jiren 7/10.

Years have passed since the TOP and the movie takes place chronologically after the Granolah arc so it is almost fact that Goku and Vegeta have access to their instinct forms.
Aside from this being a baseless assumption, having the gammas already be compared to Goku and Vegeta would contradict orange piccolo or cell max being on the level of SSB. Orange piccolo stomped gamma 2 who is compared to Goku and vegeta, yet he is still compared to them by toriyama. This can only be true if he scales to their instinct forms which is implied by Toriyama's statement and the narrative, as well as the proof of him keeping up with cell max who has a lot of evidence to put him at the level of the strongest universe+ characters.

Gohan has actually been training off screen and he has the potential to regain all his fighting sense (which is comparable to Goku's) in only a few days of training.

 

[Golden_Void]

Years have passed since the TOP and the movie takes place chronologically after the Granolah arc so it is almost fact that Goku and Vegeta have access to their instinct forms.
Aside from this being a baseless assumption, having the gammas already be compared to Goku and Vegeta would contradict orange piccolo or cell max being on the level of SSB. Orange piccolo stomped gamma 2 who is compared to Goku and vegeta, yet he is still compared to them by toriyama. This can only be true if he scales to their instinct forms which is implied by Toriyama's statement and the narrative, as well as the proof of him keeping up with cell max who has a lot of evidence to put him at the level of the strongest universe+ characters.

Gohan has actually been training off screen and he has the potential to regain all his fighting sense (which is comparable to Goku's) in only a few days of training.

The movie takes place after the Broly arc. Even if chronologically the movie happens whenever regarding the manga, none of the manga events are acknowledged or even referenced in the movie. We treat both adaptations as separate entities regardless.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The movie takes place after the Broly arc. Even if chronologically the movie happens whenever regarding the manga, none of the manga events are acknowledged or even referenced in the movie. We treat both adaptations as separate entities regardless.

I am aware, that's why I am not using it as my main argument.

 

[Vizer04]

The match has been added.

 

[Mickey1940]

Gohan is just as skilled if not more skilled than Goku. He overwhelmed him into kaioken right before the TOP. He is hyped up by Goku vegeta piccolo and even toriyama as the strongest fighter if he capitalises on his potential.

First of all he's not by virtue of simply not having as much experience, not being as old, and not having as many techniques

Second of all, Gohan doesn't have ultra instinct while Goku does, which puts Goku's skill above Gohan's by default. Goku can stack his decades of combat experience on top of his body literally fighting for him and dodging everything

Gohan doesn't have any feats proving that he can handle someone like UI Goku skillwise, while Jiren pretty much bodied him initially despite not actually having an AP advantage

 

[Mickey1940]

I am well aware. Shirtless jiren/hidden power scaling comes from stomping his previous base form. Gohan's scaling comes from stomping to higher degree cell max who is even stronger than a broly who should have supassed jiren at the very least to actually just scaling above UI Goku and orange piccolo via piccolo's statement, toriyama's statement and the strongest history statement.


That scan doesn't prove anything. That's literally what his wound looks like.
Literally everyone was able to stagger cell max, even krillin and fat gotenks and 18, are they all now blue level? Of course not, especially when potential unleashed piccolo, who is not far behind ultimate gohan couldn't even scratch cell max's weak spot.
The way orange piccolo is treated on the wiki is wrong and I should fix that, he doesn't scale to blue forms whatsoever, that completely contradicts the gamma scaling. But even using that you're still wrong because the wiki actually scales the blue forms to orange piccolo not the other way around, so prange piccolo is actually scaling to full power cell max.
Orange piccolo's actual scaling is to Goku and vegeta's instinct forms putting him comparable to hidden power Jiren or at the very least a higher degree of power than movie broly if you want to downplay.

He doesn't spam range, he's just shooting ki blasts, which is irrelevant when they do no damage.
That doesn't give jiren a big advantage especially when he actually got whooped by UI Goku when they were both comparable strength wise. Also if you want to talk battle strategy, gohan has the special beam canon which just instantly one shots any universe level+ character.


I explained the scaling pretty well it should be clear now.

1. Broly isn't confirmed to surpass Jiren nor UI Goku, and the author statement has nothing to do with Broly at all

2. The entirety of his wound turned stone grey, plus parts of his leg and face. Sure it might not be actual petrification, but that's not the point. The point is that he visibly injured and weakened after the attack
Everyone else staggering Cell Max is very obviously PiS
Ultimate Piccolo made Cell Max cry in pain after literally cracking his weak point
Whether or not you disagree with the wiki is completely up to you, but I'm just using what the wiki has stated. Orange Piccolo doesn't have the ability to sense Goku and Vegeta regardless due to not possessing god ki, so saying that he has a decent ballpark of their power is hard to say in the first place
Wdym the other way around? That literally means the same thing. They scale to each other
Orange Piccolo doesn't have anything pointing towards scaling to Goku and Vegeta's ultra forms besides the author saying that he finally can keep up with Goku and the others, which can be interpreted in a massive variety of ways.

3. Shooting Ki Blasts = Spamming range tho.
Let's give Piccolo the benefit of the doubt and say that Orange Piccolo is as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their ultra forms
That makes Cell Max comparable as well since he managed to fight off Orange Piccolo, despite both of them being worn the fck out and weakened
When Cell Max fought Gohan, he was clearly shown to be weaker than he normally was, so he would scale below the Ultra forms at that moment
Not to mention, Gohan struck him right in the weak point, which weaker characters like Ultimate Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan were able to crack
These 2 factors means that Gohan only beat Cell Max because he was far weaker than he normally is (in which what he normally is is Ultra level), PLUS he's given an additional crutch of a weak point
Jiren was pretty confidently beating up Ultra Instinct goku before Goku got mad, meaning he would normally be slightly superior to Ultra Instinct Goku normally
This means that Jiren > Weakened Cell Max, and since Jiren doesn't have a weak point Gohan can take advantage of, it's highly unlikely he can 1 shot Jiren at all, and that's only with the generous assumption that Orange Piccolo scales to the ultra forms to begin with.
What's stopping Jiren from just dodging the SBC? He's capable of repeatedly dodging and keeping up with UI Goku, who again not only scales higher but also attacks far more erratically than just a straight beam

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

This match is already over and Jiren was the victor, so more arguments are unnecessary.

 

[Golden_Void]

This match is already over and Jiren was the victor, so more arguments are unnecessary.

 

[Mickey1940]

oi oi