Full power jiren's scaling comes from being stronger than beerus which is exactly the same as broly's, the only reaspn I consider Jiren to be stronger is because he also scales above belmod. It's entirely plausible no, imminent that broly could have surpassed jiren after years of training with whis and beerus, let alone reached his level.
This says nothing about how they would fair against him now. They only referred to how difficult he was to beat for them back then.
He wasn't partially petrified, that's the appearance of the wound. I don't understand, how is being injured by orange piccolo an anti feat? That's actually a feat for piccolo putting him on the level of the above GoD level characters. I adressed the ultimate gohan damaging cell max claims. Non of this is proof of cell max being weakened. He is definitely hindered by the loss of his arm but that doesn't affect his power output.
Yes gamma 2 did fail. He helped a bit by removing cell max's arm but again that isn't proof he got weaker especially when there's other proof that he didn't.
Author statements are facts until contradicted. Just because they make mistakes doesn't make everything they say a mistake, they are true until proven otherwise.
Anyway the god scale was made by toriyama before any plans for super were made.
Dyspo's statement isn't even a contradiction, it's just a very underwhelming feat. I can't defend the beerus travesty however.
I think you're massively overestimating how much skill actually plays a role in DB fights. You said it yourself gohan can fight and match the same Goku who fought in the tournament, even force him into kaioken. Gohan is held at high regard by both Goku and vegeta for his fighting ability. Piccolo believed he could be stronger than anyone at his best and so does toriyama. Regardless Jiren was either overpowering goku in UI or getting beat up by him.
Camp gohan out lmao. Even UI Goku could plow past jiren's glare which he absolutely does not spam. The rest is head canon.
Voting Gohan.
BASE Jiren's scaling comes from surpassing Beerus. Once Jiren goes shirtless, he far surpasses his previous peak to the point where he could overpower UI Goku, who was toying with Base Jiren and could 1 shot him whenever he wanted
They meant it as he is still currently a challenge for both of them to fight against, despite never having another chance to meet him since the tournament.
Yes, he was partially petrified. Ultimate Gohan was able to stagger Cell Max with uppercuts, which is pretty much exactly what Orange Piccolo was doing. Cell Max statistically got weaker due to how Orange Piccolo is treated on this wiki. Orange Piccolo is stated to be on par with Goku and Vegeta in their SSGSS states, who are both individually vastly inferior to the likes of Ikari LSSJ Broly as of the Broly Movie. Broly as a regular Super Saiyan could match SSJ Gogeta, who even in his Base form surpassed SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, then he stacked LSSJ and Gogeta needed SSGSS to match him, meaning Broly got an SSGSS equivalent boost on top of his already SSGSS level Base form.
So basically,
Healthy Cell Max = SSGSS Gogeta? > Ikari LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta >>> Base Gogeta > Broly Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Post Gamma 2 Sacrifice Cell Max > Orange Piccolo = Super Hero Movie SSGSS Goku and Vegeta individually
Sure you can argue that Goku and Vegeta are stronger at this point in time and thus Orange Piccolo should be stronger than their Broly Movie keys, but they need to cover an SSGSS level value at bare minimum to close the scaling chain, which is highly unlikely
So yeah, it's pretty clear that Cell Max got weaker. Getting injured by a character that much weaker than Gogeta, much less UI Goku and UE Vegeta, means he definitely got weaker.
I agree with that, but I generally prefer to leave author statements to the side if other evidence don't support it. If this were any other series, I would use author statements as my main points, but considering how silly author mistakes have been over the years, I feel like Dragon Ball should be one of the few exceptions. Like yes, author statements hold merit, but certainly not as much as scaling and feats.
And yes, the Beerus travesty is stupid lmao.
It's actually pretty in character for Jiren to spam range, since he's done that several times even against UI Goku, who he didn't have an AP advantage over.
The reason why I say that Jiren outskills is because Jiren was capable of matching UI Goku, someone with superior martial arts skill compared to Gohan, AS WELL AS scaling Ultra Instinct's instinctive reaction, both for dodging and attacks. Jiren was able to keep up despite not having access to UI himself. Gohan doesn't have any skill feats to match this. Not only that, but Jiren has plenty of other tools like paralysis and energy/effort conservation to give him an edge and circumvent any AP disadvantage he might have against Gohan.
To my knowledge, the only piece of evidence we have supporting Gohan's AP advantage is the previously mentioned author statements of "Gohan vs Cell Max was the strongest battle in history", which is inherently unreliable, especially since Jiren starts out far FAR higher on the scaling chain than Gohan does.
