Gohan and Krillin upgrade

[Vizer04]

In fact, he said that Goku was faster than him, why would he say that if he wasn't using his true power already?

 

[ByAsura]

He could A) still be faster than his full power, B) be surprised that someone with equal strength is faster than him, or C) just be referring to that specific level of power.

 

[Vizer04]

A) still be faster than his full power, B) be surprised that someone with equal strength is faster than him

Stats in DB tend to increase equally most of the time.

C) just be referring to that specific level of power

Then why couldn't he just use more power to be faster? It's obvious that he was refering to Goku being faster as a whole, including his full power.

 

[ByAsura]

Yet Goku was equal in strength. Also, you’re saying this in the same line as a conversation about a member of the Ginyu Force, which has 3 people of equal power but not 3 of equal speed.

Because he powered up later.

 

[Vizer04]

Still, Goku with a power of 60,000 could fight Ginyu at full power.

 

[ByAsura]

I still say he blatantly suggests that isn’t the case, but I’ll see what the others have to thing.

 

[Vizer04]

@FluffyCreatureZ @DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama do you have anything to say?

 

[ByAsura]

Non-staff can’t tag others.

@FluffyCreatureZ @DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama

Sorry if any of you can’t stomach another DBZ thread, but some help would be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My stance hasn't really changed from what I have said thus far. I do not think the 60,000 statements are particularly reliable and technically, neither one of them were going all out. But it was a Kaioken x2 that was rated at 180,000 is what closed the case in their true power gap. And I still do not think Krillin should downscale from 1st form Frieza but am fairly fine with Gohan during the battle with Frieza.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay I've reread the chapter and it's so confusing.
Ginyu thinks Goku has a pl of 60000, and when he fights him at full power, he estimates that Goku's max strength cannot exceed 85000.
However Goku wasn't holding back at all during the whole fight, and we know this because Ginyu said that Goku was "holding back" and Goku says he was and uses the kaioken implying that he was using his full power in base, and this is true because Goku was forced to use KK when he was grabbed by Ginyu.
Now here's the problem, Ginyu while suppressed was already slapping Goku and when he went into full power, Goku couldn't do anything and was forced into kaioken.
This means Ginyu thought he was fighting a power level of 60000 who cannot pass 85000 when he was actually clapping a power level of 90000. This either means Goku was holding back which is not true or Ginyu's estimation is wrong and he's drunk. Nevertheless, Ginyu believes a power level of 60000 can give him a challenge and fight him like Goku did so it helps this upgrade or it doesn't because ginyu is contradicting himself and is just wrong.

 

[Vizer04]

Now here's the problem, Ginyu while suppressed was already slapping Goku and when he went into full power, Goku couldn't do anything and was forced into kaioken.

Both times Goku was distracted (first because of Vegeta and then for Jeice)

 

[Vizer04]

Agree: 2 (@Vizer04 and @Gilad_Hyperstar)

Neutral: 3 (@ByAsura, @DarkDragonMedeus and @FluffyCreatureZ)

Disagree:

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Put me on neutral, I think ginyu's statements are quite contradictory.

 

[Vizer04]

Put me on neutral, I think ginyu's statements are quite contradictory.

They aren't though

 

[AKM sama]

Vegeta said that Gohan and Krillin's power levels were constantly increasing to the point that he believed they could win if the three fought together

At this point in time, Vegeta was almost on par with first form Freeza, so a little help from Krillin and Gohan doesn't mean the latter two are also on the same level. It just gives Vegeta an edge.

And Ginyu's power level was 120K, why would Krillin be comparable to him?

That is the beauty of multipliers!
We have characters who explicitly do not hold a candle to First Form Frieza downscaling from his far more powerful Second Form!

This is why I don't like backwards scaling.

 

[Vizer04]

And Ginyu's power level was 120K, why would Krillin be comparable to him?

Because a power level of 60,000 is enough to make him use his true power.

This is why I don't like backwards scaling.

Please stop derailing the thread.

 

[DivineAura44]

Because a power level of 60,000 is enough to make him use his true power.

Couldn't that have been a result of skill and not necessarily power?

 

[Vizer04]

@ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus @FluffyCreatureZ @AKM sama

I don't understand why you oppose this upgrade so much, i've given you plenty of scans to prove my points and i'm honestly getting tired of this.

Ginyu thinks Goku has a power of 60,000 and they fight equally.

Krillin is 75,000

Isn't that enough proof to any of you?

 

[Vizer04]

Couldn't that have been a result of skill and not necessarily power?

The context of the statement implies it's about power, to Jeice a Saiyan having 60,000 is unthinkable.

 

[DivineAura44]

The context of the statement implies it's about power, to Jeice a Saiyan having 60,000 is unthinkable.

Maybe because all Saiyans are seen as weak and he matches an elites power??? It's not necessarily stating, "I need to power up because his strength matches mine."

 

[Vizer04]

It's not necessarily stating, "I need to power up because his strength matches mine."

Then why is Ginyu saying he would need to use his true power in the same scan?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

@ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus @FluffyCreatureZ @AKM sama

I don't understand why you oppose this upgrade so much, i've given you plenty of scans to prove my points and i'm honestly getting tired of this.

Ginyu thinks Goku has a power of 60,000 and they fight equally.

Krillin is 75,000

Isn't that enough proof to any of you?

Nobody has outright denied it. I told you that your upgrade is plausible, but for all we know, ginyu could just be wrong.
He's never fought someone at 60000 pl before so he may be excited to fight someone that strong, since the most elite soldiers in the freeza force are the ginyu force and they cap out at 30000-40000, so it's also plausible for ginyu to not know that a pl of 60000 is not impressive. We also know that 90000 to 12000 is linear and 1.3x gaps are enough for stomps in the same arc so that also contradicts ginyu's statement.
Also source the 75000 pl statement.

 

[DivineAura44]

Then why is Ginyu saying he would need to use his true power in the same scan?

To outweigh the skill gap???

 

[Vizer04]

We also know that 90000 to 12000 is linear

No? Why should it be linear?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

To outweigh the skill gap???

Actually, vegeta states that ginyu and Goku's capabilities are practically equal.

No? Why should it be linear?

Because 90000 to 180000 is? Mate. You are the one who created this huge fuss about 90000 to 900000 being linear and scaling kk10 Goku to 2nd form freeza.

 

[Vizer04]

Because 90000 to 180000 is? Mate. You are the one who created this huge fuss about 90000 to 900000 being linear

That doesn't mean 90,000 to 120,000 is linear though

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Actually, vegeta states that ginyu and Goku's capabilities are practically equal.

Yeah, power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't that enough proof to any of you?

No, because the 60,000 things is immediately debunked by the story and the 75,000 thing comes from a questionable canon source with no backing.

I'm against the proposed upgrade.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That doesn't mean 90,000 to 120,000 is linear though

Bruh moment

Yeah, power.

Equal power but one more skilled than the other would not make an equal match where both can take each other down like vegeta said. The more skilled would win easily.

 

[Vizer04]

No, because the 60,000 things is immediately debunked by the story

How?

the 75,000 thing comes from a questionable canon source with no backing.

We already use questionable canon sources:

To scale Vegito above a fusion of Goku and Gohan

To scale Shin to SSJ Goku

For Trunks transformation

For Cell to be Solar System level

And there's other examples i'm probably missing...

 

[Qawsedf234]

How?

Because Ginyu states pages later that he can also change his power level at will, was holding back the entire time and when Goku is put into a hold he has to resort to KK to actually do anything. Its not a Nappa vs Goku situation. Its just a no scaling situation.

We already use questionable canon sources:

To scale Vegito above a fusion of Goku and Gohan

To scale Shin to SSJ Goku

For Trunks transformation

All of those sources come from a officially licensed French guide of the series (that was then translated into Spanish and Portuguese) that took something like eight years of constant CRTs to actually be accepted as useable.

You are using an anime V-Jump guide to scale to a manga character based on a statement that is demonstrably not what you're saying it is.

For Cell to be Solar System level

Cell has far more statements than just that one guidebook to say he is solar system level.

You're also using a dedicated guidebook vs a magazine that covers tons of different things at once. That would be me saying that we can't use official MCU guidebooks as sources because this magazine happened to cover the Hulkbuster once and may have some bad information.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

To scale Vegito above a fusion of Goku and Gohan

Despite having literally just used the Potara minutes earlier and knowing the power of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, Kibito Kai was dumbfounded by how powerful Super Vegito was. Elder Kai even implies that their twenty-year-old rivalry also contributed to their insurmountable Battle Power.

This is just a case of a databook backing up information presented in the source material, not a random Power Level from V-Jump, the magazine that covers the manga, the games, and the anime all in one.

For Trunks transformation

We do that?

For Cell to be Solar System level

This is a case of a databook affirming a statement from the ******* manga.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also, not only does the El Manga Legendario affirm the idea that Cell can destroy the solar system, but the Daizenshuu does as well, and the Super Exciting Guide, and Dragon Ball Forever, and the video games.

 

[Vizer04]

Thank you, this can be closed now

 

[ByAsura]

Agree: 2 (@Vizer04 and @Gilad_Hyperstar)

Neutral: 3 (@ByAsura, @DarkDragonMedeus and @FluffyCreatureZ)

Disagree:

I'm not neutral, I disagree.

Edit: I did not realise the thread was closed, or that I can even post on closed threads.