God of war | Kratos's immortality Negation section.

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Legionnaires & Their Counterparts​

Now, before we start, I know that Fuji wanted to handle this in one of her future threads, but this is mostly a re-justification of the ability that deals with its current problems instead of entirely removing it.

To start off, we need to talk about the Legionnaire's Immortality and it's extent.

Legionnaires are undead creatures (Type 7) who can survive incredibly fatal amounts of damage, such as arrows penetrating through their skull and even being torn into two (Type 2). These traits naturally apply to all Legionnaires.

Now, has Kratos ever shown to negate this immortality? Yeah actually, Let's first start with the most canonical thing in a game, a cutscene.

In this cutscene, Kratos kills two Legionnaires by simply slashing their chest without making any major deep cut, This is the most obvious showcase, but we do see him being able to kill legionnaires in game by simply tearing them into two, or by bashing their head, stuff they should have survived if Kratos isn't negging their immortality.

Kratos has also shown to be able to kill Legionnaires who have been cursed by Zeus to constantly resurrect ( Type 4 & 8), and yeah, Kratos just kills them, there's no mechanism he uses, he just kills them.

And now we have the first problem with Kratos's current justification, the mention of Cursed Remains.

Cursed Remains​

Cursed Remains are counterparts to the Legionnaires, albeit very different. They're more skeleton like, and they usually survive as displaced skeleton parts(and are they are alive in those states for those who are skeptical) (Type 2), they can restore and ressurect themselves from pieces of broken bones(Type 3 & 4) and are far more rarer than your common Legionnaires.

Now, has Kratos negged their immortality? Somewhat.

We are shown In God of war Ghost Of Sparta, Kratos needs to freeze or overpower their regeneration, he can't really do anything to them at this point in the series.

In God Of War II, Kratos can somewhat nullify their immortality, as he can dismantle them to end their life. Credits to omegabronic for pointing this out.

In God Of War III, he can kill them by tearing them into two or by decapitation, stuff they should survive considering their ability to continue to survive as disconnected skeleton parts and just their broken regeneration.

All of the above showcases Kratos's ability to evolve against the Cursed Remains, albeit it's very minor considering the dozen encounters with them.

Now the second problem, Kratos's Type 6 comes from his Norse Era, which we accept to possess his Demigod physiology, while this is correct, we also accept his Norse Era to have all his godly powers, which is why giving this to his Demigod self is weird considering that it's even more likely to be from his godly self.

It should've also included scans.

Nightmares are capable of possession which increases their victims strength and grants immortality, Kratos being able to remove their possession by stunning the victim and can even kill the victim despite their granted immortality.

Demigod Kratos's immortality Negation should look like this, Immortality Negation (Type 2; Can easily kill Undead Legionnaires by slashing their chest, bashing their heads and even tearing them into two, despite a Legionnaire's ability to survive fatal wounds such as a arrow piercing their skull and being torn into two. Type 4; Can even kill the eternally ressurecting Legionnaires. Type 7; Legionnaires are undead creatures. Type 8; The infamous ressurecting Legionnaires had their immortality as a byproduct of a curse bestowed by Zeus himself.)

God Kratos, Enhanced Immortality Negation (Type 2; Evolved to kill Cursed Remains by tearing them into two and decapitation, despite their ability to survive as disconnected skeleton parts. Type 3 & 4; High-Mid; Cursed Remains are able to regenerate from being broken into pieces of separated bone, allowing them to re-animate themselves. Type 6; His Norse self, who's his Demigod self with godly powers, is able to nullify a Nightmare's possession via stunning, which grants it's victim immortality and enhanced strength. He can even kill the victim despite their immortality.)

TL;DR​

• Type 3 and 6 gets moved to Kratos's God key.
• Type 8 gets added to his Demigod self.
• Cursed Remains and Undead Legionnaires are counterparts of each other, but are very different.
• I need a pepsi.

Staff agrees​

Staff neutrals​

Staff disagrees​

Deagnox, Agnna (with the Cursed Remains)

 

[Omegabronic]

Doesn't this shows him killing the cursed remain by dismantling them, which they should be able to regen from? It is in a QTE after stunning them

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Not necessarily, As the Guidebook makes it clear he can only kill them by completely finishing them off.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Legionnaires are undead creatures (Type 7) who can survive incredibly fatal amounts of damage, such as arrows penetrating through their skull and even being torn into two (Type 2). These traits naturally apply to all Legionnaires.

In this cutscene, Kratos kills two Legionnaires by simply slashing their chest without making any major deep cut, This is the most obvious showcase, but we do see him being able to kill legionnaires in game by simply tearing them into two, or by bashing their head, stuff they should have survived if Kratos isn't negging their immortality.

This doesn't have to be immortality negation. Surviving an arrow penetrating your skull doesn't mean you can survive all forms of blunt damage to your skull, and surviving your legs being ripped off doesn't mean you can survive your head being ripped out or a big cut on your chest

 

[Omegabronic]

Not necessarily, As the Guidebook makes it clear he can only kill them by completely finishing them off.

Yeah but........all he does is break them apart, which they should survive via the links you showed

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Can't really respond, I'm studying currently but I'll come back after finishing.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree with everything

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

No, hard disagree. Just wait till Fuji deals with this problem.

 

[Hypertornado099]

No, hard disagree. Just wait till Fuji deals with this problem.

It would be better if you explained why you disagree

 

[Georredannea15]

No, hard disagree. Just wait till Fuji deals with this problem.

Dude, the bad news for you is no one's gonna wait for Fuji and her decisions. So instead of desperately going into "come on fuji, come here and do something about it" mode and refusing "just to refuse", share your thoughts about why you disagree. Or don't share

• I need a pepsi.

And with Doner

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Simple, kratos killing the undead creatures in specific way, either bypassing their immortality or damaging them beyond what they can recover/regenerate from, is not any form of immortality negation, nor regeneration negation.

 

[Georredannea15]

Simple, kratos killing the undead creatures in specific way, either bypassing their immortality or damaging them beyond what they can recover/regenerate from, is not any form of immortality negation, nor regeneration negation.

Then tell me, what is it?


Uh, let me guess. So manipulating fate is not really a fate manipulation according to you, right? Just like permanently killing immortal beings is not immortality negation...

 

[Reiner04]

I agree for now.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This doesn't have to be immortality negation. Surviving an arrow penetrating your skull doesn't mean you can survive all forms of blunt damage to your skull, and surviving your legs being ripped off doesn't mean you can survive your head being ripped out or a big cut on your chest

It's more so Kratos bashing their head rather then decapitation (for the Legionnaires) and yeah I get that. Although the main point was him being able to kill by tearing them apart, does that qualify?

Yeah but........all he does is break them apart, which they should survive via the links you showed

I mean, even if I take it as a legitimate feat it'd be considered as an outlier because his early Godhood can't really do shit to them.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm busy at the moment but I'll take a look at this tomorrow.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Yeah but........all he does is break them apart, which they should survive via the links you showed

I mean, even if I take it as a legitimate feat it'd be considered as an outlier because his early Godhood can't really do shit to them.

Scratch that, I'm pretty sure this is just more evidence of Kratos's bs RE at work, as he couldn't do shit in GOW GOS, manages to somewhat nullify their immortality to a limited degree in GOW2, to then straight up Negation in GOW3. I'm gonna add that in the OP.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Cursed Remains​

Cursed Remains are counterparts to the Legionnaires, albeit very different. They're more skeleton like, and they usually survive as displaced skeleton parts(and are they are alive in those states for those who are skeptical) (Type 2), they can restore and ressurect themselves from pieces of broken bones(Type 3 & 4) and are far more rarer than your common Legionnaires.

Now, has Kratos negged their immortality? No. Atleast, not as a Demigod or his early godhood.

We are shown in God of war II that Kratos can't really kill them in those manners, usually he uses petrification or just brute forces his way through it. In God of war Ghost Of Sparta it's shown thet Kratos needs to freeze or overpower their regeneration, so basically the same.

?

What do you mean? Kratos just kills them in God of War 2. He doesn't need some roundabout way to sever their immortality I don't know where this idea came from.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

?

What do you mean? Kratos just kills them in God of War 2. He doesn't need some roundabout way to sever their immortality I don't know where this idea came from.

Yeah, I just changed the OP for this very reason.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

While I'm a bit too tired to go over this in full right now, I would like to mention that I disagree with type 6 immortality negation.

Nightmares are capable of possession which increases their victims strength and grants immortality, Kratos being able to remove their possession by stunning the victim and can even kill the victim despite their granted immortality.

For starters, I'm not sure I understand which part of these scans is supposed to support this being a form of immortality, rather than a standard form of possession. That aside, Kratos' method of "negating" their immortality appears to be a limitation of their possession, where they can be forced out of their host if the host dies or is incapacitated.

I am, however, grateful for the additional scans/references and think the rework looks much better than Kratos' current immortality negation section (even if I may not agree with everything written).

No, hard disagree. Just wait till Fuji deals with this problem.

Don't do this, by the way. I am not some bastion of powerscaling. Come up with your own arguments instead of just waiting for me to handle everything, because there will inevitably be some things I cannot respond to immediately.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with everything except type 6, since Fuji did a good job explaining why it's not valid.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Don't do this, by the way. I am not some bastion of powerscaling. Come up with your own arguments instead of just waiting for me to handle everything, because there will inevitably be some things I cannot respond to immediately.

Alright, I did however comment my reason for disagreeing in a comment below. For verses I don't really care about I usally just leave smalll comments with why I agree or disagree.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

For starters, I'm not sure I understand which part of these scans is supposed to support this being a form of immortality, rather than a standard form of possession. That aside, Kratos' method of "negating" their immortality appears to be a limitation of their possession, where they can be forced out of their host if the host dies or is incapacitated.

The argument is that a Nightmare's possession takes over the mind(and as I just realized, the soul) of a being to possess their victim, which Kratos negates by stunning. basically, Kratos negates soul-posssssion by stunning the victim with his punchs, which force the Nightmare out of them.

And killing the host isn't a limit to Type 6 immortality, as it's entire reasoning is switching bodies to survive. It's just more of a low end one.

But I do think tho that you're interpretation of their immortality limits is pretty valid.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Bump

 

[Hypertornado099]

The skeletons are able to reconstruct themselves from Kratos' attacks. They seem to only disappear if he deals enough damage

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The skeletons are able to reconstruct themselves from Kratos' attacks. They seem to only disappear if he deals enough damage

What game specifically? Kratos's ability to deal them evolves chronologically with the games.

 

[Hypertornado099]

What game specifically? Kratos's ability to deal them evolves chronologically with the games.

God of War II. The guide even says that they are able to piece themselves back together unless finished off completely

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Exactly... Kratos nullifies their immortality to a limited degree at that point of the series. Only in III does he negate their immortality fully.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think the phrasing of the guide suggests he is simply destroying them beyond what they can come back from.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The guide is talking about how they can re-animate(something that usually refers to restoring life, in other words, ressurection) themselves from Kratos brutally dismantling, suggesting that they had already been killed I.e had their immortality, specifically type 2, nullified. Which is why I've been referring to him only nullifying it to a limited degree.

And GOW III is the major factor of him nullifying their immortality. Not GOW II.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Bump.

 

[Georredannea15]

Bump.

Yeah...

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

The guide is talking about how they can re-animate(something that usually refers to restoring life, in other words, ressurection) themselves from Kratos brutally dismantling, suggesting that they had already been killed I.e had their immortality, specifically type 2, nullified. Which is why I've been referring to him only nullifying it to a limited degree.

And GOW III is the major factor of him nullifying their immortality. Not GOW II.

It's not limited in any sense. Even in GoW 2, the only way they will disassemble and reassemble (a showcase of their immortality) is if kratos stands there and purposefully doesn't kill them. Kratos has 0 issue killing cursed remains in GoW 2, and it isn't about doing doing so much damage their immortality can't account for it. They're bones, if kratos was required to vaporize them into nothing to kill every single one this would be a valid argument but he doesn't, he just kills them like any other mob in the game.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I... actually kinda agree, I can see how the guide saying Kratos needs to completely finish them off can refer to him needing to go there to physically finish them.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I... actually kinda agree, I can see how the guide saying Kratos needs to completely finish them off can refer to him needing to go there to physically finish them.

Showcase of what I mean

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

So, they only regenerate if they're left alone by Kratos? Is what I think you're saying?

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

So, they only regenerate if they're left alone by Kratos? Is what I think you're saying?

They have those immoralities and kratos can kill them with 0 issue. Really isn't much more to it than that.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Ok, I can see that.

 

[Deagonx]

Type 2; Can easily kill Undead Legionnaires by slashing their chest, bashing their heads and even tearing them into two, despite a Legionnaire's ability to survive fatal wounds such as a arrow piercing their skull and being torn into two.

As others have stated, this appears to just be Kratos reaching a damage threshold. Especially since both of the scans being used to support their immortality speak about this damage threshold.

Type 4; Can even kill the eternally ressurecting Legionnaires. Type 7; Legionnaires are undead creatures.

Killing undead creatures isn't Type 7 negation, you have to be literally stripping them of their undead status. Kratos doesn't do this. Also, the scan doesn't say they resurrect immediately on the spot due to the curse, and there's nothing really to suggest that they are supposed to but don't because of Kratos' unspoken negation. Type 4/8 is based on that reasoning, but the evidence is not very strong for it.

Enhanced Immortality Negation (Type 2; Evolved to kill Cursed Remains by tearing them into two and decapitation, despite their ability to survive as disconnected skeleton parts.

Yeah this is just a damage threshold thing again. A damage threshold is embedded in the Type 2 standards.

Type 3 & 4; High-Mid; Cursed Remains are able to regenerate from being broken into pieces of separated bone, allowing them to re-animate themselves

It says: While Kratos' chained blades are effective at breaking them into pieces, if these Cursed Remains are not finished off completely, they re-animate once again.

This is just a damage threshold thing, again.

Type 6; His Norse self, who's his Demigod self with godly powers, is able to nullify a Nightmare's possession via stunning, which grants it's victim immortality and enhanced strength. He can even kill the victim despite their immortality.)

I don't know how it is granting their victims immortality, but killing the host body to harm/kill a possessing entity is normal and isn't a form of negation.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

As others have stated, this appears to just be Kratos reaching a damage threshold. Especially since both of the scans being used to support their immortality speak about this damage threshold.

How is it? Kratos tears their legs off, they die, despite them being able to survive said injury.

Killing undead creatures isn't Type 7 negation, you have to be literally stripping them of their undead status. Kratos doesn't do this. Also, the scan doesn't say they resurrect immediately on the spot due to the curse, and there's nothing really to suggest that they are supposed to but don't because of Kratos' unspoken negation. Type 4/8 is based on that reasoning, but the evidence is not very strong for it.

Striping them of their undead status? That's ressurection Deagnox, killing them by ressurection is worse evidence for Negation, and how is striping the death of something evidence? You're literally removing their very essence of death. You're not killing a dead being at that point.

I'm pretty sure the statement makes it clear that's it's combat-capable ressurection, "The Legionnaires marched endlessly, fighting, ressurecting, dying to continue their eternal battle-their eternal defeat."

Yeah this is just a damage threshold thing again. A damage threshold is embedded in the Type 2 standards.

I'm sorry, but can explain how exactly? They survive as disconnected skeleton parts, if Kratos separates their skull, they die, if Kratos tears them to two, they die.

It says: While Kratos' chained blades are effective at breaking them into pieces, if these Cursed Remains are not finished off completely, they re-animate once again.

This is just a damage threshold thing, again.

That's missing the context of the game, where they can only ressurect if Kratos leaves them alone.

Showcase of what I mean

And the use of "re-animating" would suggest that they had been killed, as such, they had their immortality, Type 2, nullified.

I don't know how it is granting their victims immortality, but killing the host body to harm/kill a possessing entity is normal and isn't a form of negation.

It's not killing the host that's the main evidence, it's him removing the possession by stunning.

 

[Deagonx]

How is it? Kratos tears their legs off, they die, despite them being able to survive said injury.

Being ripped apart at the midsection is different from simply tearing off legs.

Striping them of their undead status? That's ressurection Deagnox

No, Type 7 Negation isn't something like "making them live again through resurrection" it refers to stripping them of the magical status of being undead. If you negate a zombie's Type 7 Immortality they just revert to being an inert corpse. Same with Skeletons. This isn't the same as beating them to death. It's normal in fiction for people to be able to kill undead skeletons by hitting them enough times, that's not immortality negation.

I'm pretty sure the statement makes it clear that's it's combat-capable ressurection, "The Legionnaires marched endlessly, fighting, ressurecting, dying to continue their eternal battle-their eternal defeat."

No, because the statement is still satisfied by them just coming back to life at some point in the future.

I'm sorry, but can explain how exactly? They survive as disconnected skeleton parts, if Kratos separates their skull, they die, if Kratos tears them to two, they die.

It's clear that Kratos is inflicting damage on them that causes them to die. Even if their form is oddly amorphous, it doesn't make sense to interpret this as immortality negation. If he is negating their immortality through a special ability instead of simply inflicting enough damage, it doesn't follow that he has to hit them until they die in the first place.

That's missing the context of the game, where they can only ressurect if Kratos leaves them alone.

Right, you have to finish them off, as in, deal enough damage for them to fully die. You use the same kind of attacks to finish them off that you do to get them to the "about to die state" where they are wobbling. Again, if Kratos is negating their immortality, why didn't the earlier attacks accomplish it?

It's not killing the host that's the main evidence, it's him removing the possession by stunning.

That isn't immortality negation.