God of War: An oversight and possible upgrade

[ShivaShakti]

So, while reading the profiles for the Primordials, I realized the following. In statements on the profiles, and in the blog, they are acknowledged as predating reality and all its facets, including that of Time (Cronus). They are even given Acausality for this very reason.

Preceding time entirely and existing before its conception would probably be an Immeasurable speed feat. The laws of duration and causality would naturally not apply to beings who predate time.

I'm uncertain if this has been mentioned or rejected before, so forgive me if it has. But if not, I feel this should be discussed.

 

[Fixxed]

Well as far as i know we by default not give immea speed to being who predate time alone, we give immea speed if that being is can move through time by his speed

But i will neutral to this

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah no, we don't give Immeasurable Speed for predating time alone and/or for acausality type 4 by default. You need to be able to physically move beyond the confines of time itself to the point where you exist beyond the confines of time itself where they cannot catch up to you, or you can literally move through time itself with sheer speed alone.

This kind of falls under the timeless voids section, which also no longer apply for anything including speed without context.

 

[Theglassman12]

That was the old school reasoning for infinite speed, which God of War used to have via primordials existing before time, but that's nuked now. You'd need movement through time itself to qualify.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sadly those old standards of speed exist no more.

 

[Planck69]

Existing prior to time as a concept doesn't really give Immeasurable speed as far as I'm aware, unless the standards changed (wouldn't be surprised honestly, Immeasurable speed standards change every other day on this site). They used to have it as an Infinite justification before Dragon Ball dragged that qualifier screaming into the void.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Existing prior to time as a concept doesn't really give Immeasurable speed as far as I'm aware, unless the standards changed (wouldn't be surprised honestly, Immeasurable speed standards change every other day on this site). They used to have it as an Infinite justification before Dragon Ball dragged that qualifier screaming into the void.

Unfortunately there are issues with Timeless Void Standards, and I don't believe that's really applicable in this instance.

They aren't merely existing in a space without time, but they are themselves timeless and exist prior to it.

Timeless entities can have immeasurable speed. We have given this to characters before. Any character who exists outside of, or is transcendent of time is an example.

 

[Planck69]

Unfortunately there are issues with Timeless Void Standards, and I don't believe that's really applicable in this instance.

They aren't merely existing in a space without time, but they are themselves timeless and exist prior to it.

Timeless entities can have immeasurable speed. We have given this to characters before. Any character who exists outside of, or is transcendent of time is an example.

So, predating the concept of time and existing outside of it would be Immeasurable? Hmmm.

 

[ShivaShakti]

So, predating the concept of time and existing outside of it would be Immeasurable? Hmmm.

Yeah.

The Ultimate Gods are one example. They exist outside of time in a state which is unchanging and removed from duration.

 

[KLOL506]

They aren't merely existing in a space without time, but they are themselves timeless and exist prior to it.

The Titans also consider time meaningless and the laws of time and place are different for the rest of the Olympians too, yet they have not showcased feats of being able to move through time with sheer movement alone or showed feats where they can move beyond the confines of space and time with sheer speed akin to higher-dimensional existence or so.

Timeless entities can have immeasurable speed. We have given this to characters before. Any character who exists outside of, or is transcendent of time is an example.

I don't think we allow that anymore either, it explicitly has to be movement beyond the confines of linear time itself or being able to travel back-and-forth through time with sheer speed alone.

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, it comes down to whether or not it's an actual site-accepted method for Immeasurable. Since it's already a thing with the deities;

• The Primordials existing before time itself.
• The Olympians abiding by different laws of time and space and hearing and sensing their domains across all of eternity.
• The Titans also considering time meaningless.
• The Sisters of Fate micromanaging and altering all their threads constantly, which span space and time.

I'd rather wait and see if it's actually a way accepted other than just running through time. If not then it'd be rejected.

 

[KLOL506]

The Ultimate Gods are one example. They exist outside of time in a state which is unchanging and removed from duration.

IDK about this example, sounds like the whole timeless void shenanigans all over again but there may be context missing from this that may be making me misunderstand this particular feat.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I don't think we allow that anymore either, it explicitly has to be movement beyond the confines of linear time itself or being able to travel back-and-forth through time with sheer speed alone.

I'm not really sure that's true. Typically transcending or existing in a state beyond or outside of time is enough. It'd be strange if an explicit movement fest was required.

 

[ShivaShakti]

IDK about this example, sounds like the whole timeless void shenanigans all over again but there may be context missing from this that may be making me misunderstand this particular feat.

The Timeless Void standards in their current state aren't very good, and they genuinely need to be revised, which I intend to do later.

Essentially they are a contradiction. If you read our description of Immeasurable speed, and then reference it with the Timeless Void Standards on the Speed page, you'll notice they use the same vocabulary. Immeasurable uses time as "undefined" and the inapplicable status of the speed formula in its description. But then the Timeless Void policy uses similar language such as "undefined" and how time and distance isn't applicable to assert that these feats aren't valid.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not really sure that's true. Typically transcending or existing in a state beyond or outside of time is enough. It'd be strange if an explicit movement fest was required.

The only object in GoW actually stated to transcend time and space is Yggdrasil, and even that wasn't enough to grant it Low 1-C despite its infinitely-large branches encompassing the smaller 9 Realms (But that's a whole another topic regarding encompassment as a whole that's not suited for this debate).

The other person who is stated to have ascended to a higher dimension is Athena, and the Primordials are only stated to predate reality itself, not transcend it.

 

[KLOL506]

The Timeless Void standards in their current state aren't very good, and they genuinely need to be revised, which I intend to do later.

Essentially they are a contradiction. If you read our description of Immeasurable speed, and then reference it with the Timeless Void Standards on the Speed page, you'll notice they use the same vocabulary. Immeasurable uses time as "undefined" and the inapplicable status of the speed formula in its description. But then the Timeless Void policy uses similar language such as "undefined" and how time and distance isn't applicable to assert that these feats aren't valid.

Sounds like a sitewide standards issue then.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The only object in GoW actually stated to transcend time and space is Yggdrasil, and even that wasn't enough to grant it Low 1-C despite its infinitely-large branches encompassing the smaller 9 Realms (But that's a whole another topic regarding encompassment as a whole that's not suited for this debate).

The other person who is stated to have ascended to a higher dimension is Athena, and the Primordials are only stated to predate reality itself, not transcend it.

Well, the developer scan on the profile for the Primordials also claims that Time as a "measurement" also didn't exist until Cronus. Which probably further supports that things such as duration or progression don't really apply to them.

 

[Planck69]

Well, the developer scan on the profile for the Primordials also claims that Time as a "measurement" also didn't exist until Cronus. Which probably further supports that things such as duration or progression don't really apply to them.

I mean, that much is true. We just don't know if it qualifies for Immeasurable or not.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I mean, that much is true. We just don't know if it qualifies for Immeasurable or not.

I don't see why it shouldn't. If time isn't applicable in regard to a being, then the speed formula wouldn't either.

 

[Planck69]

I would rather someone who's knowledgeable confirm this though.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't see why it shouldn't. If time isn't applicable in regard to a being, then the speed formula wouldn't either.

That's kinda the same reason why Timeless Void Feats and feats of similar logic like predating and being uncontrolled by time got nuked to oblivion.

They argued that without time, speed couldn't be defined and thus speed became incalculable and unverifiable completely.

 

[KLOL506]

Of course, at this point this looks to be a wiki-specific issue and not a verse-specific one. In which case, a CRT will be required to ask a query about said standards.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Yeah this probably calls for a sitewide CRT

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bamp

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah this probably calls for a sitewide CRT

Until that day comes, best to just close this thread for now.

 

[Planck69]

Closing.