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GER Soul Manipulation

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DRW001

DRW001

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Hey all. This CRT is focusing on adding soul manipulation onto GER's profile. It will be split up into 3 parts:
  1. Statements from Chariot Requiem's stand description - Short, initial part which talks about an interesting line from the stand description
  2. 'The arrow has the power to dominate souls' - Main part of this CRT, delves into what power the arrow itself holds and how it applies to Giorno/GER.
  3. 'Beyond the arrow's power' - Explains what role RTZ takes place in all of this, plus hopefully clear up a few questions if there are any.
Statements from Chariot Requiem's stand description

On Chariot Requiem's stand stats it states:

"A stand energy that evolved from Polnareff's Sliver Chariot when it was pierced by the arrow. Due to the decline of Polnareff's stand ability, it has gone out of control. Requiem is an energy that dominates living souls. In this stands's case, it has switched the souls of bodies near each other."

As you can see, it states how SCR has swapped the souls of nearby bodies and also states that 'Requiem' is an energy that dominates living souls. What's interesting here, however, is that the statement specifies 'In this stand's case' before talking about what CR did just recently. Which leads me to believe that the statement 'Requiem is an energy that dominates living souls' is in fact referencing the power of the arrow itself here rather than strictly talking about CR itself, and that statement can therefore be used for any to-be requiem stand that utilizes the arrow. Later statements in the next section backs up this claim of mine.

'The arrow has the power to dominate souls'

It is stated constantly throughout the story that what Chariot Requiem did was just 'a fragment of the arrow's power' and that whoever 'had the power' and could control the arrow would be able to 'dominate the souls of all life':

"If this arrow were to be used by someone with the power... That person would be able to dominate the souls of all life!"

-Chapter 135 (574) - The Requiem Quietly Plays, Part 3

"Th... The power to dominate souls...? Is that what this is? Even though all it did was switch our souls?"

"No, I told you that this was only a fragment of that power... Without the ability to control it, I am unable to see what lies beyond. But it exists! If any of you obtain the arrow, you will be able to control it."

The soul swapping was but a fragment of the Arrow's power. Polnareff also states that if any of the gang were to obtain the arrow, they will be able to control that power (i.e. soul manip) plus what lies 'beyond' (RTZ, explained later)

-Chapter 135 (574) - The Requiem Quietly Plays, Part 3

"The arrow has the power to dominate souls! And this is one fragment of it!?"

-Chapter 136 (575) - The Requiem Quietly Plays, Part 4

"What is happening right now... is a fragment of the power of the arrow that I meant to hand to you"

-Chapter 134 (573) - The Requiem Quietly Plays, Part 2

"Wh... What's doing on? What's gonna happen!? Don't tell me our souls are going to be switched again!"

"I don't know... Right now, nobody does... not even Giorno himself... but... I can tell Giorno has complete control of requiem... It's not going out of control!"

Trish states how Giorno now has complete control of the arrow.

-Chapter 147 (586) - Gold Experience Requiem, Part 1

As you can see, there are multiple statements that the arrow itself holds the power to dominate living souls; this soul manipulation is not just the specific ability of SCR, and that the swapping of souls was a 'fragment' of said power. In addition, Polnareff then states that if a person who 'had the power' were to use the arrow, they will be able to dominate living souls. More specifically, he said that if any of the gang themselves were to obtain the arrow, they would be able to control said power. Later on, when GER appears for the first time, Trish then fully confirms that Giorno has complete control of requiem (and therefore the arrow by proxy), all whilst Mista was wondering whether their souls were going to be swapped again.

Given how these statements apply to the arrow itself + Gio having control of arrow, GER should logically retain said powers.

'Beyond the arrow's power'

The following section will provide additional contextual information for the arrow, such as how RTZ relates to all this and what 'Beyond the arrow's power' means, as well as hopefully clearing up some confusion in case people believe that RTZ is soul based (or other stuff similar to that, as some people got slightly confused when I shared this with them before I posted this CRT because Araki believes nothing should be easy with GER) from the information/statements I provided earlier. However, this section won't be talking about information that is directly related to the main topic of this CRT.

You can ignore this section if you want to solely focus on soul manipulation.

One may think that with these statements stating how the arrow has the power to dominate souls, GER's RTZ ability is somewhat soul based, but this is not correct. Polnareff immediately says to the gang that there is something 'beyond stand powers' and that something is 'beyond what already exists' in reference to the arrow's power, as well as also saying he's unable to see what lies 'beyond the arrow's power', meaning that this power is something completely different and beyond the soul manipulation that was already pre-established with the arrow. Trish also states that Giorno has gone 'beyond the arrow's power' numerous times when awakening GER. This cannot be referring to soul manipulation or else Polnareff would've known what that 'something' was. That 'beyond stand powers' statement is very consistent with how GER is portrayed in the JoJo series, as its Return to Zero is always referred as the 'Ultimate/Strongest' stand ability is both guidebooks that it appeared in (JoJo-AGo!Go! and JoJoVeller). Hell, RTZ is referred to as 'Godlike' in EoH. RTZ cannot be soul manipulation, or else it wouldn't line up with Polnareff's statements as well as be given this status of being the ultimate/strongest stand ability.

So to put it simply: The soul swapping that took place with the main gang is constantly described as just mere 'fragments' of the arrow's power. Those who had 'the power', as described by Polnareff whilst talking to the gang, will be able to obtain and control the arrow and thus 'dominate the souls of all life'. Those who fully control the arrow will then also be able to go 'beyond the arrow's power' (and obtain what will become RTZ; this is admittedly a bit of a rehash of what I said in an earlier section but just wanna hammer home the point).

Giorno was stated to both have complete control of the arrow and to have gone 'beyond the arrow's power', explicitly by Trish and Polnareff implied that he would've done when they first met.

Conclusion (or tldr for those that don't wanna read):

With the numerous statements of how swapping souls is a fragment of the arrow's power, statements of whoever controls the arrow will dominate the souls of all life, Polnareff himself stating that if any of the gang were to obtain the arrow, they will be able to control that power, Chariot Requiem's stand stats description along with Trish's confirmation that Giorno has full control of the arrow, GER should have soul manipulation. (Although I have heard that statements alone aren't enough to grant a solid rating; you need feats as well. Otherwise it'll just be 'likely/possibly' rating so if that's the case then it'll be that.)

Agree: ZillerBucko, Meganova_Stella
Neutral:
Disagree:
 
Last edited:
Just to make sure
this thread is meant for GER to be getting the abilities of chariot requiem? Or is there more to it than that
 
ZillerBucko said:
Just to make sure
this thread is meant for GER to be getting the abilities of chariot requiem? Or is there more to it than that
Click to expand...
Basically, he’s going for at least a likely soul manip for ger, it would be incredibly out of char, but might actually help him clear up his myriad of incons
 
StekFence said:
Basically, he’s going for at least a likely soul manip for ger, it would be incredibly out of char, but might actually help him clear up his myriad of incons
Click to expand...
Well we can’t exactly say it’s out of character due to limited screentime, and the fact that GER acts semi-independently to Giorno but
After reading through the whole thing, I personally say that I agree
 
M3X said:
Eh, most of this is Chatiot exclusive, and even GER having a greater power from the same source, doesn't mean he can do the same Chariot did.
Click to expand...
"The arrow has the power to dominate souls!"
this link in particular is pretty solid evidence that the arrow itself gives soul manipulation
sure the fact alone that they are both requiem stands proves nothing, but I'd say the thread does show pretty difficult to dismiss evidence that says the arrow itself manipulates souls
this in particular is also fairly convincing that the arrow itself is what manipulates souls
 
also the fact that he has "complete control" of the ability implies that he should also be capable of using the fraction that chariot requiem used, so anything chariot can do GER can do (except for regenerate probably)
 
I mean, that's pol saying that, he'd have no idea. I just think it's extremely suspect to give him chariots powers, you'd think if he had them it would be mentioned in a guide, but it's not even hinted or, even in passing, in anything at all ever.
 
well....
this thing does use the term requiem in a way that does strongly suggest that all requiem stands have soul manipulation. And while you're not directly wrong about your points, I just don't think there's anything that actually is there to counterargue GER soul manipulation other than things that are just a bit weird, but can easily be explained by GER's abilities consistently having a vague nature, and even without that, it's still not really a strong enough set of points to do any real kind of debunking to the thread to be honest
 
ZillerBucko said:
well....
this thing does use the term requiem in a way that does strongly suggest that all requiem stands have soul manipulation. And while you're not directly wrong about your points, I just don't think there's anything that actually is there to counterargue GER soul manipulation other than things that are just a bit weird, but can easily be explained by GER's abilities consistently having a vague nature, and even without that, it's still not really a strong enough set of points to do any real kind of debunking to the thread to be honest
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? "but can easily be explained by GER's abilities consistently having a vague nature" no, that's not the case, because GER never used soul manipulation, there's nothing vague here. He simply doesn't have it
 
M3X said:
What are you talking about? "but can easily be explained by GER's abilities consistently having a vague nature" no, that's not the case, because GER never used soul manipulation, there's nothing vague here. He simply doesn't have it
Click to expand...
while sure, there's no feat of him using it, the point of the post is that there are loads of statements that state that the arrow itself is responsible for bestowing stands with soul manipulation, and also a very direct statement that requiem is an energy that can control souls, and the word requiem is specifically not referring to the stand chariot requiem, just a general requiem related ability. look, the evidence in the original post is very solid so I'd appreciate it if you could make a comment about the evidence instead of just about GER having a vague nature. the absence of feats does not mean statements are invalid at all, especially when the statements are of this quantity.
 
Eficiente said:
The power of the arrow simply developed into GER and its ability.
Click to expand...
yes, and the power of the arrow gives stands soul manipulation, it's in the original post
nothing is out of place here, I'm gonna have to ask you to elaborate much further than just a non contradictory argument
 
ZillerBucko said:
the point of the post is that there are loads of statements that state that the arrow itself is responsible for bestowing stands with soul manipulation
Click to expand...
Not the ability GER got.
ZillerBucko said:
, and also a very direct statement that requiem is an energy that can control souls, and the word requiem is specifically not referring to the stand chariot requiem, just a general requiem related ability.
Click to expand...
There is no proof of this, and in other cases like here Requiem is used to refer to Chariot Requiem
ZillerBucko said:
the absence of feats does not mean statements are invalid at all, especially when the statements are of this quantity.
Click to expand...
The statements are invalid due to their logic being invalid, the lack of feats or of GER's ability being said to do this means it can't, as it only has "1 ability" on top of the 1 it kept having as GE.
ZillerBucko said:
yes, and the power of the arrow gives stands soul manipulation, it's in the original post
Click to expand...
Even if this was stated, which it isn't, GER's ability being beyond it means it can be whatever rather than what it had to be, and it's not shown being Soul Manip.
 
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Eficiente said:
Not the ability GER got.
Click to expand...
0 evidence of this, and there is evidence that he does have it as I will explain below
Eficiente said:
There is no proof of this, and in other cases like here Requiem is used to refer to Chariot Requiem
Click to expand...
different situation, who cares if in that specific situation requiem refers to the stand itself, I am talking about a situation where it refers to not chariot requiem, and it is relevant because it is a statement of "dominating souls" and what you sent is not any kind of countering statement or anything
it is quite clearly, in this situation, not referring to the stand itself when it is said that requiem controls souls due to the fact that after it ends the sentence and then says "in this stand's case" as a separate term, but I didn't need to explain this (I hope)
and even following this random logic of yours, in that situation there is actually not anything to suggest he was referring to the stand itself when he said requiem. "This is the riddle of requiem" could just as easily be saying that because "it" is a requiem stand, it can control souls. I have no idea why you would make a point like this but whatever, there's your explanation
Eficiente said:
The statements are invalid due to their logic being invalid, the lack of feats or of GER's ability being said to do this means it can't, as it only has "1 ability" on top of the 1 it kept having as GE.
Click to expand...
if the logic is invalid then actually prove it, you saying it doesn't make it true
and saying he only has one ability doesn't make it true either. you have the burden of proof here, since the statements are evidence, and now you're trying to discredit evidence using a complete lack of evidence yourself.
give some kind of evidence that he only has one ability, but if you don't, then there's absolutely no way you should have even considered bringing up a point like this
Eficiente said:
Even if this was stated, which it isn't
Click to expand...
If the arrow were to be used by someone with the power, then that person would dominate the souls of all life!"
"the power to dominate souls?...." "...if any of you are able to obtain it, you will be able to control what lies beyond" (referring to complete control of the arrow, obviously if it is a fraction then common sense tells us that something with complete control over it would also be able to control the fraction of it, so in a way, chariot requiem's feat is also GER's feat, since GER is using the full capabilities of the arrow.
Eficiente said:
GER's ability being beyond it means it can be whatever rather than what it had to be, and it's not shown being Soul Manip.
Click to expand...
specifically shows that requiem stands in general have soul manipulation
there is absolutely nothing here that's up for debate
when polnareff is talking about beyond, we know that GER should have more abilities than just soul manipulation, so there is absolutely nothing contradictory about having the extra power of reverting actions to 0. absolute nothing at all here is problematic
the evidence is overwhelming so, consider changing your vote in the face of solid evidence presented in this well-made crt
 
also remember the fact that mista was worried about GER possibly changing their souls, which is an obvious example of heavy author implication if you care about that (but if you're fighting the addition this hard you probably dont)
 
ZillerBucko said:
also remember the fact that mista was worried about GER possibly changing their souls, which is an obvious example of heavy author implication if you care about that (but if you're fighting the addition this hard you probably dont)
Click to expand...
That's not really an author implication,
It's simply Mista worried as he doesn't know what ability GER might show.
 
I can agree with the arrow itself having soul manip, but I'm leaning towards disagreeing for GER having it.
 
Tarang123 said:
I can agree with the arrow itself having soul manip, but I'm leaning towards disagreeing for GER having it.
Click to expand...
basis for this? it's stated clearly that GER has full control over the power of the arrow, and that the arrow has the ability of bestowing soul manipulation upon those using it
 
Tarang123 said:
Can you prove that it can fully manipulate the arrow?
Click to expand...
“Whoever controls the arrow will dominate the souls of all life”
“Giorno has complete control of requiem”
“Requiem (being used as a term for both requiem stands) is an energy that can dominate the souls of all life”
The statements are quite clear on this. Had everybody read the original post there would be no reason to disagree
 
Not to be that guy but
There was no reasoning at all there, all of it is easily able to be disproven and already has been, and the entire case against the upgrade so far is incredibly weak
 
The upgrade itself requires assumption, hence why I’m neutral for it. Possible soul manip might work better, tho
 
The only assumption we need to make is that the characters who have said the statements haven’t lied several times, which is generally not something people assume on here I thought
The most realistic scenario is a likely soul manipulation
 
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