Genshin Impact Discussion Thread

[AsterReal]

 

[Puppet43]

Always bet on Nibelung ressurection arc

 

[MSahla]

Either next week's Tuesday or Wednesday

 

[MSahla]

Phanes is too OP

Greater Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (4-D - Multiversal+; The Heavenly Principles are creator of the Universal Laws including the Concept of Fate such as the Fate of the Mortal Realm or the Constellations (Musica Humana) and Fate System of the Universe (Musica Mundana) These fate systems are the divine rules, with Musica Mundana that governs all universal phenomena in the universe. Causality is irreversibly attached to fate, and whatever fate changes will also alter the cause and effect. The stars of Teyvat are closely intertwined with the concept of fate, and constellations are an extension of this. The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm. The Heavenly Principles created a fate system of the world and refashioned Irminsul as its anchor to serve humanity. This fate system that served humanity contains infinite possibilities, with each of those possibilities are confirmed to be an alternate future/timelines and can be observed; such as Nicole who can observed Alternate Albedo who became a Traveler/Descender who travel through the universe, through worlds, recording all and creating worlds. The Hexenzirkels are able to observe these alternate timelines; such as when Alice, Nicole, and Barbeloth observe an alternate future of Mondstadt if the Traveler had never come to Mondstadt, where Varka would have become the hero of Mondstadt and defeated Dvalin, and then Dvalin would have been sealed by Barbatos. They can also create a small world based on that alternate future of Mondstadt. All of that proves that each of those infinite possibilities are true alternate timelines/future)

 

[MSahla]

Something something Electro Dragon Sovereign

 

[AsterReal]

 

[MSahla]

So.. Is Lohen literally haxless? Anybody knows what should I add? If not then I'll just publish his profile later this day.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MSahla/Lohen

 

[Puppet43]

So.. Is Lohen literally haxless? Anybody knows what should I add? If not then I'll just publish his profile later this day.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MSahla/Lohen

I would delete the above Sandrone justifications

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Ursa was an angel
Ursa that Dottore defeated was a copy made from 1% of Og's Ursa power

whats the argument cuz didnt dottore defeated it with ease

 

[Puppet43]

whats the argument cuz didnt dottore defeated it with ease

Still, cant be scale to full potency
So 1% or 0.5% of a Fp Angel (2% or 1% of Nicole's feat) which would be between 18 and 9 Zettatons

 

[Puppet43]

Btw
I think this confirms Current Traveler (Post Nod Krai) is somewhat relative to Nicole
So anyone scaling to him would be getting 5B scale

• The 2 Watchers from The Temple of Space
• Mandagora
• Exalted Master (Dottore Data)

And thats pretty much it

 

[MSahla]

Btw
I think this confirms Current Traveler (Post Nod Krai) is somewhat relative to Nicole
So anyone scaling to him would be getting 5B scale

• The 2 Watchers from The Temple of Space
• Mandagora
• Exalted Master (Dottore Data)

And thats pretty much it

There's no implication that base Traveler = 50% Nicole in that video, nor a goddamn Mandragora is equal to Nicole either. Where did you get that?

The Traveler was just testing their skills.

 

[Puppet43]

There's no implication that base Traveler = 50% Nicole in that video, nor a goddamn Mandragora is equal to Nicole either. Where did you get that?

Let me remind u, the only thing that Mandragora had fought in canon had been Nicole & Traveler (Video shown) and Traveler In the Witches log world quest, which happens post Nod Krai AQ, so yeah its consistent this Plant = Traveler Post Nod Krai and since Nicole also aided her help that means she was also fighting (damn the ult is automatically, so yeah. Something something Traveler 50% Angel lvl aint that far fetch)

 

[MSahla]

First of all, you need to look who it is. It was a just a plant monster. They ain't nothing to Traveler. You can't just "Oh this plant monster scale to 5-B because it fight Nicole and Traveler" without knowing/aware about the narrative that it was just a plant monster. It'll be an outlier.

Let me remind u, the only thing that Mandragora had fought in canon had been Nicole & Traveler (Video shown) and Traveler In the Witches log world quest, which happens post Nod Krai AQ,

This would be an outlier unless corroborated.
Mandragora is ordinary monster with no feats or statements placing it anywhere near Traveler or Nicole, then suddenly scaling it to post-Nod Krai Traveler, that would be an outlier. Unless the Mandragora demonstrably matched or pressured them while they were going all out. Yet nothing shows that.

Mandragora fighting Traveler doesn't mean its equal to Traveler.

If your mindset is "Fighting = Comparable" automatically, then fckin Tolfin's grandma should be equal to Traveler because she was fighting the Traveler.

so yeah its consistent this Plant = Traveler Post Nod Krai and since Nicole also aided her help that means she was also fighting

Non-sequitur. She was just helping the Traveler with just giving her ults. She already said that she wants the Traveler to test their skills to that Mandragora.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Still, cant be scale to full potency
So 1% or 0.5% of a Fp Angel (2% or 1% of Nicole's feat) which would be between 18 and 9 Zettatons

why does 1% ursa the drake scale to dottore if dottore defeated it with ease?

 

[Puppet43]

why does 1% ursa the drake scale to dottore if dottore defeated it with ease?

Because it was a copy made from angel powers
Its like if Rerir said "The Wild hunt contains 1% of my strength" then wild hunt monster would be scaling to the value of 1% of Rerir Ap
Dottore and any archon would get Low 5B because they upscale the 1% copy

It was a just a plant monster. They ain't nothing to Traveler.

"They ain't nothing" but somehow we were asking for Nicole to help us?
And the argument "its just a plant" its litterally an ignorant fallacy, u ignoring feats/statments/context just to base ut argument on their nature, this is the same as saying Xbalanque is fodder cause is a human. Their strengths and their nature have no correlation

about the narrative

The narrative of Traveler asking help from Nicole and putting himself between it and Paimon?

This would be an outlier unless corroborated.

Lets check what its an outlier

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.

For it to be considered an outlier or inconsistency, it would have had to have previously shown, or at some point in the story, that "Oh, it's weak." But the only two instances where this enemy appears, it poses some threat to the Traveler, since it calls for Nicole's help. If it were like a Hilichurl, which has been implied countless times to be an enemy barely stronger than a boar, I would agree with you, but as I've already said, you can't count its two appearances as an inconsistency. Otherwise, what would you want it to scale from?

no feats or statements placing it anywhere near Traveler or Nicole, then suddenly scaling it to post-Nod Krai Traveler,

"Shades have no feats or statments placing them near Sovereigns, then suddenly scaling them to Sovereign because a book told us they fought"
See how dumb u soud? "But Mandragora its nothing without its only feat" yeah duh, nuke [x] feat from a character and suddenly they are featless

She was just helping the Traveler with just giving her ults

This is litterally actively aid us in combat

If your mindset is "Fighting = Comparable" automatically

We litterally apply this to Primogeovishap, Thunder Manifestation, Abyss Heralds and Abyss Lectors (Probably many more characters)

then fckin Tolfin's grandma should be equal to Traveler because she was fighting the Traveler.

Until u realize he didnt have any intention of going all out against a her, its litterally stated in her world quest
Meanwhile Mandragora had Traveler saying shi like "MAHORAGA HELP ME"

 

[AsterReal]

 

[Puppet43]

So Voiced World Quest, peak

 

[MSahla]

"They ain't nothing" but somehow we were asking for Nicole to help us?

That's paimon asking help, and it's never shown BECAUSE the Traveler was very struggle against it.

And the argument "its just a plant" its litterally an ignorant fallacy, u ignoring feats/statments/context just to base ut argument on their nature, this is the same as saying Xbalanque is fodder cause is a human. Their strengths and their nature have no correlation

That's a false characterization of the argument. The point isn't "Mandragora is weak because it's a plant." The point is that scaling it to post-Nod Krai Traveler purely because they fought is a narrative outlier.

By that logic, every random enemy that briefly engages a Traveler would automatically scale to the Traveler, which completely breaks the game's power hierarchy. Gameplay encounters and isolated combat interactions are not sufficient evidence that two characters are equals.

Xbalanque being human is irrelevant because his strength is established by lore and explicit feats. Humans in Genshin can literally be that strong if the lore keeps saying so. As a result you got Capitano, Varka, Mavuika and Xbalanque.

Scaling requires corroborating evidence. A lone fight without clear indications of parity is weak evidence, especially when accepting it would imply that an otherwise ordinary monster suddenly reaches the level of one of the strongest characters in the setting. If the conclusion creates widespread contradictions in the setting's established hierarchy, it's more reasonable to treat it as an outlier than redefine the entire verse around one encounter.

The narrative of Traveler asking help from Nicole and putting himself between it and Paimon?

That was Paimon who asked help. Either way that was just outlier or straight up Plot-Induced Stupidity, and that's completely fine.

The Traveler have fought many stronger opponent like Rerir and have improved so much since so, and they suddenly struggle against a fkin plant monster?

For it to be considered an outlier or inconsistency, it would have had to have previously shown, or at some point in the story, that "Oh, it's weak." But the only two instances where this enemy appears, it poses some threat to the Traveler, since it calls for Nicole's help.

The fact that that Mandragora only appears twice doesn't strengthen the scaling. It simply means there is very little evidence to evaluate it. When the only evidence is an ambiguous encounter, you cannot conclude it scales to the Traveler, especially when that conclusion clashes with the broader narrative.

If it were like a Hilichurl, which has been implied countless times to be an enemy barely stronger than a boar, I would agree with you, but as I've already said, you can't count its two appearances as an inconsistency. Otherwise, what would you want it to scale from?

That's backwards. If Mandragora only has two appearances, then there's less evidence to scale it, not more. A lack of appearances doesn't automatically justify placing it at post-Nod Krai Traveler level. And Asking "what else would you scale it from?" doesn't solve the problem. If there isn't enough evidence to determine its level, then the correct conclusion is "its strength is uncertain," not "therefore it scales to Traveler."

"Shades have no feats or statments placing them near Sovereigns, then suddenly scaling them to Sovereign because a book told us they fought"
See how dumb u soud? "But Mandragora its nothing without its only feat" yeah duh, nuke [x] feat from a character and suddenly they are featless

The false equivalence is just crazy. The Shades are explicitly established in the lore as major divine beings, and the lore directly states they fought the Sovereigns. That is an explicit historical feat involving two clearly defined, high-tier entities. The scaling comes from a direct statement about the event itself.

Mandragora's case is completely different. The dispute isn't that it has "only one feat". The dispute is whether that feat actually demonstrates parity with the Traveler. An ambiguous encounter where Nicole intervenes and Paimon calls for help is not the same as an explicit statement that two characters fought as equals.

No one is "removing" Mandragora's feat. The question is whether the feat supports the conclusion being drawn from it. Feats still have to be interpreted correctly. Simply interacting with or fighting a stronger character does not automatically mean you scale to them.

We litterally apply this to Primogeovishap, Thunder Manifestation, Abyss Heralds and Abyss Lectors (Probably many more characters)

We literally saw the Traveler shown to be comparable to them, such as when we fought the Abyss Herald in We Will Meet Again Archon Quest before the Traveler's siblings shows up.

Until u realize he didnt have any intention of going all out against a her, its litterally stated in her world quest
Meanwhile Mandragora had Traveler saying shi like "MAHORAGA HELP ME"

And again, that was Paimon. Never saw anything that implies the Traveler was going all out on that Mandragora either.

To add more to this, there's still no proof that Nicole, who is the "source" of this 5-B rating, also come to fight that Mandragora as well alongside the Traveler. Nicole initially wanted to test the Traveler's skill on Mandragora, so she wasn't supposed to join with the Traveler and fight that Mandragora. So Traveler Base ain't even 5-B.

 

[Puppet43]

That's paimon asking help, and it's never shown BECAUSE the Traveler was very struggle against it.

That was Paimon who asked help

"Hey, Nicole! Help us out here, will ya!?"
Us, do you know when the pronoun us is used?

The point isn't "Mandragora is weak because it's a plant."

Clearly the mayority of ur points on why Mandragora couldnt be 5B its because their nature

it is. It was a just a plant monster
it was just a plant monster
Mandragora is ordinary monster

they fought is a narrative outlier

Sure, now proof its an outlier or inconsistency, even do its their only feat and no one else scales to them

that briefly engages a Traveler would automatically scale to the Traveler, which completely breaks the game's power hierarchy

Outlier rule 4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? if we take, lets say Fatui Agent Pyro. It doest break the previously establish scaling, therefore its invalidad

Gameplay encounters and isolated combat interactions are not sufficient evidence that two characters are equals.

Do you renember the Abyssal Herald boss? The one with 4 arms, their only lore interaction with us is via Jakob "somewhat fighting" (he got low diff the moment he couldnt trap us) yet since it could give us some problem it should still be same tier as Hydro Traveler and not 5 tiers below him

Scaling requires corroborating evidence. A lone fight without clear indications of parity is weak evidence, especially when accepting it would imply that an otherwise ordinary monster suddenly reaches the level of one of the strongest characters in the setting.

The corroborating evidence its litterally Mandragora fighting us twice and once with Nicole help, like there isnt a more straight up scaling, it is never mention to be fodder, weak, light work for Traveler; thats litterally a headcanon of urs
The god damn plant gives some trouble to the Traveler (not gonna say its extreme diff fight, thats dumb) but they arent neither 5000000 tier below us, it can tank us and threath our ahhh

that an otherwise ordinary monster

See? how u just the arg to "monster = tier 10B"

If the conclusion creates widespread contradictions in the setting's established hierarchy, it's more reasonable to treat it as an outlier than redefine the entire verse around one encounter.

It never creates a contradiction because its not above Phanes/Nibelung, its weaker than Apep; the Apex of Dendro. And since our only info appart of these 2 fights its litterally the Stygian Onslaught and Local Legends... Guess what they talk about. HOW MANDRAGORAS ARE TERRIOTORIAL, does this break the hierchy of not being above Apep nor the god damn top tiers? NO, then why would it be wrong?

just outlier or straight up Plot-Induced Stupidity

Proof it

The Traveler have fought many stronger opponent like Rerir and have improved so much since so, and they suddenly struggle against a fkin plant monster?

Sasuke in boruto struggle against a Velociraptor, we can both play this

The fact that that Mandragora only appears twice doesn't strengthen the scaling. It simply means there is very little evidence to evaluate it.

The little evidence is all the evidence needed to put the plant at 5B

That's backwards. If Mandragora only has two appearances, then there's less evidence to scale it, not more

So, Dr data is weak because it has 1 apparence and we cant take their fight against Trav/Wander because might be an outlier, got u
Same applies to Gosoythoth, Narwhal, The Game before the Gate, Signora, Och-kan, Narzzi, The Oasis bug

The Shades are explicitly established in the lore as major divine beings

"Major beings" yet their killcount is compossed on random civilians and most of the dragon population which werent even in the Primo Vishap tiers
I dont know man, they seem kinda fodder if they major feats is killing 10B humans

The dispute is whether that feat actually demonstrates parity with the Traveler

Which does

We literally saw the Traveler shown to be comparable to them, such as when we fought the Abyss Herald in We Will Meet Again Archon Quest before the Traveler's siblings shows up.

Yet Thunder Manifestation/Geovishap are actual light work for Traveler and yet they are scaling same values

that was Paimon.

Sahl, u kinda forgot Paimon is Traveler's voice for like 96 % of the game

there's still no proof that Nicole, who is the "source" of this 5-B rating, also come to fight that Mandragora as well alongside the Traveler

Oh yeah mb, because spamming ult at begging of the fight aint aiding like if her canon kit wasnt creating duplicates of Pyro to assist in combat (Not to mention she is forced in your team with Pyro Trav; so yeah most definetly fought togheter)

 

[MSahla]

"Hey, Nicole! Help us out here, will ya!?"
Us, do you know when the pronoun us is used?

I mean, that's literally just Paimon who asked Nicole a help. Traveler on the other hand never ask anything nor want Paimon to ask Nicole to help them.

Clearly the mayority of ur points on why Mandragora couldnt be 5B its because their nature

That is also why. A fcking plant creature who doesn't have any statements to put them on the same level as Traveler or Nicole suddenly on their level just because they fought them? Wow. Clearly an outlier.

Sure, now proof its an outlier or inconsistency, even do its their only feat and no one else scales to them

That's literally the point. The fact that it's their only feat is precisely why people call it a potential outlier. A single showing that drastically exceeds a character's consistent portrayal requires corroborating evidence, not automatic acceptance.

Likewise "no one else scales to them" doesn't help your case. If Mandragora only has one encounter with the Traveler/Nicole and no other comparable feats, then there is no independent evidence that it truly operates at that level rather than the encounter being contextual, aided, or otherwise exceptional.

Outlier rule 4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? if we take, lets say Fatui Agent Pyro. It doest break the previously establish scaling, therefore its invalidad

If the Pyro Agent, who is narratively NEVER on Post-Nod-Krai level Traveler but merely an elite fatui that is only Mondstadt Traveler level can suddenly can matched NodKrai Traveler and Traveler is somehow struggle, then that would be just Plot-Induced Stupidity.

Do you renember the Abyssal Herald boss? The one with 4 arms, their only lore interaction with us is via Jakob "somewhat fighting" (he got low diff the moment he couldnt trap us) yet since it could give us some problem it should still be same tier as Hydro Traveler and not 5 tiers below him

If an Abyssal Herald can briefly contend with the Traveler, that only shows it can challenge the Traveler to some extent. It doesn't automatically prove equality. There's a thing called "Downscale." Many weaker opponents can delay, inconvenience, or pressure a stronger character without scaling 1:1 to them.

The corroborating evidence its litterally Mandragora fighting us twice and once with Nicole help, like there isnt a more straight up scaling, it is never mention to be fodder, weak, light work for Traveler; thats litterally a headcanon of urs
The god damn plant gives some trouble to the Traveler (not gonna say its extreme diff fight, thats dumb) but they arent neither 5000000 tier below us, it can tank us and threath our ahhh

I already addressed this; that's literally the point. You're using the encounters themselves as corroboration, but that's circular reasoning. "Mandragora fought the Traveler twice" is not independent evidence, but it is the same premise repeated. Corroborating evidence would be additional feats, statements, or scaling from other characters showing Mandragora is genuinely at that level.

For example: If the narrative says oh Mandragora monster is on this level so they can fight them, or Mandragora is strong enough to equally fight the Traveler, then I would accept that since it has a back up narrative to scale them to the Traveler. Yet It doesn't have anything about all that and just straight up fighting.

It never creates a contradiction because its not above Phanes/Nibelung, its weaker than Apep; the Apex of Dendro. And since our only info appart of these 2 fights its litterally the Stygian Onslaught and Local Legends... Guess what they talk about. HOW MANDRAGORAS ARE TERRIOTORIAL, does this break the hierchy of not being above Apep nor the god damn top tiers? NO, then why would it be wrong?

That's not the point. If you think a fodder monster to be on the same level as a high tier, then whoever low to mid tier characters that can fight that monster would be suddenly on that high tier level, even though those low-mid tier characters were never supposed to be that high.

Say, Mandragora is 5-B from Nicole. Then suddenly Jahoda or Amber or Illuga and whoever on their level can defeat Mandragora, that would make them 5-B as well. This is your mindset btw; no matter how fodder the character is, if they're shown to fight a higher tier character they would automatically scale to them regardless of narrative.

Sasuke in boruto struggle against a Velociraptor, we can both play this

I stopped watching Boruto cause the Anime is sucks. But if that so called Velociraptor is a fodder compared to Sasuke and others on his level manage to make Sasuke struggle, then that's just PIS.

The little evidence is all the evidence needed to put the plant at 5B

Buddy, you gotta fix your terminology really quick, because that's an unsupported conclusion. Otherwise, you'd have to accept that every enemy who briefly fights or survives against the Traveler is automatically on the Traveler's level, which is an obviously flawed standard.

So, Dr data is weak because it has 1 apparence and we cant take their fight against Trav/Wander because might be an outlier, got u
Same applies to Gosoythoth, Narwhal, The Game before the Gate, Signora, Och-kan, Narzzi, The Oasis bug

What in the logical fallacy
Your argument for Mandragora boils down to "It fought the Traveler twice, therefore it scales to the Traveler." Those encounters are the only evidence you're presenting. There are no comparable lore statements, narrative hype, or additional feats establishing it as Traveler-level

Meanwhile, those things you mentioned(except that King and Queen and Oasis bug) have multiple independent lines of evidence supporting their scaling, whereas Mandragora's proposed scaling depends almost entirely on the very encounters you're trying to use as proof. That's precisely why they shouldn't be treated the same.

"Major beings" yet their killcount is compossed on random civilians and most of the dragon population which werent even in the Primo Vishap tiers
I dont know man, they seem kinda fodder if they major feats is killing 10B humans

Wtf does "kill count" gotta do with them being major beings?

Which does

Not really.

Yet Thunder Manifestation/Geovishap are actual light work for Traveler and yet they are scaling same values

Why are we even using values logic here instead of in-verse logic?

Sahl, u kinda forgot Paimon is Traveler's voice for like 96 % of the game

Okay? Does that mean Paimon's thinking = Traveler's thinking? No. That's non-sequitur.