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Fullmetal Alchemist: the Truth Huge Upgrade

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So, here we are finally. I wanted to make this CRT several weeks ago after I contacted Ultima about certain details about it, but unfortunately soon after that I was on holiday for three weeks and so this was put on hold. But now I am back, so this can finally happen. However, before starting, I want to give a huge thanks to Ultima himself. I was not very knowledgeable about the current Tier 1 stuff, and still have several doubts about it, so this would have not happened without his clarifications and suggestions about it.

Fullmetal Alchemist is my favorite manga/anime ever, and the scaling for it is completely fine as it is currently, except for a single character: the Truth. Its nature is mysterious and never fully explored, and as such it is not easy to give it a proper rating… But this is where the new Tiering System jumps in, since with it we might finally be able to give it a more solid tiering. But first of all, let’s explains something important …

Why the current rating is wrong

The Truth is currently rated as Low 2-C because of its monologue, which is probably the most well known part about it, that says: “Who am I? One name you might have for me is the World, or you might call me the Universe, or perhaps God, or perhaps the Truth. I am All, and I am One. So, of course, this also means that I am you” (this is taken directly from its page in the wiki). There are different translation that differs for little details, but the meaning remains the same regardless, and this is the reason as to why it is listed as Low 2-C… but it is actually an incorrect rating given the phrase.

Sure, it does say it is “the Universe” and “All”, but it also says it is “the World”, “One” and “You”. A Low 2-C rating would be fine if we take only the first two I listed, but with the rest this becomes an obviously incorrect tering for it, since on top of the Low 2-C rating we should also list it as 5-B for being “the World”, 10-B/10-C or even lower for being “One”, and every single rating on the verse for being “You”, which includes every single character in the verse.

To put it simply, the Truth is not just the “All”, the everything, but it is also the “One”, the single pieces that makes up this everything, both at the same time. So, how would something like this be rated? Well, with the previous Tiering System the only thing we could do was place a Low 2-C rating to it as a sort of “placeholder” … but now, with the new Tiering System, we possibly have a much more solid answer: 1-A. But to explain why, we need to analyze the little informations we have about it.

What is the Truth?

Let’s start with the basics. As the Truth itself says, it is the Universe, the World, God, Truth, the All and the One all at the same time. It actually says this twice, the second time towards the end, just to drive home the point. This in itself means little, but we do have more informations about what this “All” and “One” actually means.

When Izumi sends Edward and Alphonse to a desert island to fend for themselves, she gives them a riddle to solve: “One is All, All is One”, asking them to solve it. After a lot of time, their answer is that this is actually the fundamental law of nature, aka that there is a flow that connects the all and the singular elements that makes up said all, and alchemy is basically the understanding and manipuation of this flow of all things. Given that the Truth clearly says that it is the “All” and the “One”, this makes the Truth both halfs that forms this flow that is the fundamental law of nature and alchemy as a whole.

We also have more about this when we explore more about the “Gate of the Truth”, which contains within it the Eye of Truth and what is basically the real Truth. It is revealed to us that everything and everyone have a Gate within it, and it’s this Gate that allow people to use alchemy in the first place, mainly thanks to the fact that the Gate within oneselves connect them with the flow of “All and One” that is Truth itself. We also know that this is not limited to living beings, given that even entire planets have a Gate, and fully artificial beings like Homunculus have one too, further solidifying the point that the Truth is actually “All” and connects everything. To put it simply, the Gate is the flow that we were talking about earlier.

Another point of great interest is that this flow is not limited to matter, but also metaphysical aspects of being. As shown in the previous scan about the planet's Gate, even a consciousness can have a Gate, and the soul of the deaths go back to the Gate once someone dies. On top of this, Alchemy allows those that uses it to trasmutate souls, either exchanching physical matter for souls or the contrary as seen with Philosopher Stones which are able to create matter from nothingness by consuming the souls stored within them and as seen with Edward, who uses his own soul in a equivalent exchange to make a transmutation, which automatically means souls are also part of the flow that connects the “All” and the “One”, especially given that the Truth is the one that oversees the natural order and the equivalent exchange in itself.

There are a couple more things that I think are of some interest. First, even the Fake Portal within Gluttony, created by the Father with his great knowledge over alchemy and that exists even outside reality as a whole, is still not able to reach the Gate of Truth, meaning it’s unreacheable even from outside reality as a whole. Second, the Truth is also described as the “complete/perfect being” twice, with the term used being the “hermaphrodite” which, as most symbols in FMA, is a real life alchemic symbol that rapresents the opposites that becomes one into a single, perfect being which, while not a lot on his own, can give even more weight to the statements from the Truth about the All and the One.

Conclusions

What does all of this mean? That the Truth is the All and the One, the flow that connect everything and the single parts that makes up said everything throught the Gates that exists within everything and everyone and that, by extension, connects them to itself. To put it simply and taking inspiration from Ultima's word, this mean that the Truth would trascend the distinction between parts (the One) and whole (the All) by virtue of being the flow by which part and whole are in truth one thing. Which means that a 1-A rating is overall believable.

For the question about who scales, the answer is pretty simple: the Truth and no one else. I believe that Alchemy would become 1-A in nature given that it comes from the Gate that each individual have within themselves, but it in itself wont even be close to be 1-A in potency, similiarly to how right now Alchemy is 4-D in nature without actually being 4-D in potency.

And that should be it. Once again, thanks to Ultima for helping me understanding how to rate the informations given about the Truth, and thanks to LordGinSama too for helping me get a couple of scans. I know this might be a controversial thread since this is a pretty popular manga, but I hope this can go relatively well overall.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
Anti feat :

2 anti-feats

- Truth can be perceived, seen, and interacted with by the MC

- As stated in one of the scans, "All those individual parts come together so the greater whole can exist" is a BIG anti-feat implying that the Truth can be reached simply by stacking individual non 1-A parts, and that it cannot exist without those individual parts..... yeah, that's a pretty plain anti-feat
 
I don't want to discuss this right now given that I prefer this to be put on queue and than discussed when Ultima will have time. Regardless, I will just point out a couple of things.

- Truth can be perceived, seen, and interacted with by the MC
What they perceive, see and interact with are just reflections of the real Truth and nothing else. We directly see that what we normally call the Truth is a perfect reflection of the individual that sees it made thanks to the Gate within the individual (as proven when the one that was perceived throught Edward's Gate disappear once Ed trasmutate his own Gate). Said reflection even take parts of the individual and make them appear on itself, like with Edward, yet we do not see his arm and leg appear on every "Truth" (or rather manifestations of the Truth), just the one Edward sees, proving that what we associate with the name "Truth" (and what the character perceive, see and interact with) is just a reflection rather than the real deal. What I am upgrading with this is the Truth as the absolute "All" and "One", not the individual Gates or the manifestations of the Truth. On top of this, none of this is a anti-feat in itself from what I know, and to be one it would require far more context than that, but I could be wrong.

As stated in one of the scans, "All those individual parts come together so the greater whole can exist" is a BIG anti-feat implying that the Truth can be reached simply by stacking individual non 1-A parts, and that it cannot exist without those individual parts..... yeah, that's a pretty plain anti-feat
Monads are Tier 0, and they too, just like the Truth, are All and One, both the everything and the single parts that makes up this everything. By your logic, they shouldn't be Tier 0 neither since they can be reached simply by stacking individual non Tier 0 parts. This is because, as I said in the OP, the All and the One are in actually one and the same under the Truth. And according to Ultima, the one that made the Tiering System just to be clear, this would be 1-A, even Tier 0 if there was a bit more context to it which unfortunately I was not able to find.

Now, I prefer for this to not become bloated of messages before it even gets queued. When the time comes and Ultima will be able to check this, we can discuss it properly. Until than, I would prefer for this discussion to not go any further just to not make things more complicated.
 
- Truth can be perceived, seen, and interacted with by the MC
Not an anti-feat. Truth revealing himself to Edward is something he himself did and not Edward and it's not like it's his actual true form.
- As stated in one of the scans, "All those individual parts come together so the greater whole can exist" is a BIG anti-feat implying that the Truth can be reached simply by stacking individual non 1-A parts, and that it cannot exist without those individual parts..... yeah, that's a pretty plain anti-feat
Don't think the idea of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is really an anti-feat for 1-A and above. Plus Truth is "indivisibly" both the whole and the parts so it's not exactly him either.

I'm iffy on 1-A but I guess I'll just see what Ultima has to say.
 
I don't want to discuss this right now given that I prefer this to be put on queue and than discussed when Ultima will have time. Regardless, I will just point out a couple of things.


What they perceive, see and interact with are just reflections of the real Truth and nothing else. We directly see that what we normally call the Truth is a perfect reflection of the individual that sees it made thanks to the Gate within the individual (as proven when the one that was perceived throught Edward's Gate disappear once Ed trasmutate his own Gate). Said reflection even take parts of the individual and make them appear on itself, like with Edward, yet we do not see his arm and leg appear on every "Truth" (or rather manifestations of the Truth), just the one Edward sees, proving that what we associate with the name "Truth" (and what the character perceive, see and interact with) is just a reflection rather than the real deal. What I am upgrading with this is the Truth as the absolute "All" and "One", not the individual Gates or the manifestations of the Truth. On top of this, none of this is a anti-feat in itself from what I know, and to be one it would require far more context than that, but I could be wrong.


Monads are Tier 0, and they too, just like the Truth, are All and One, both the everything and the single parts that makes up this everything. By your logic, they shouldn't be Tier 0 neither since they can be reached simply by stacking individual non Tier 0 parts. This is because, as I said in the OP, the All and the One are in actually one and the same under the Truth. And according to Ultima, the one that made the Tiering System just to be clear, this would be 1-A, even Tier 0 if there was a bit more context to it which unfortunately I was not able to find.

Now, I prefer for this to not become bloated of messages before it even gets queued. When the time comes and Ultima will be able to check this, we can discuss it properly. Until than, I would prefer for this discussion to not go any further just to not make things more complicated.
If it is an avatar than it is fine. As for the second point tho.


not all "Monads" are tier 0 by default



Also, just being "everything" yet also singular, even in the highest of notions, is not tier 0. Such a being would just be Essence itself, rather then being beyond Essence. A discussion on that is done here : https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...t-1-tier-0-slime-is-real.170584/#post-6741493



Ultima is a human too. There are chances they might have missed something as well.
 
not all "Monads" are tier 0 by default



Also, just being "everything" yet also singular, even in the highest of notions, is not tier 0. Such a being would just be Essence itself, rather then being beyond Essence. A discussion on that is done here : https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...t-1-tier-0-slime-is-real.170584/#post-6741493



Ultima is a human too. There are chances they might have missed something as well.
As far as I know, meeting all the requirements for being a Monad is Tier 0 by default if there are no considerable anti-feats, it's just hard to meet all the necessary criteria. Plus the thread presented seems to be a very different case from what is being discussed.
Anyways, this is getting out of topic given what what I am proposing is not Tier 0. The point of what I said is that Monads are essentially "All" and "One" at the same time, in the same way that the Truth is "All" and "One" at the same time. So your reasoning of non 1-A piece stacking to reach a 1-A level would also apply to any motion of Monad since they are too "All" and "One", which would mean no Monad could ever be considered Tier 0 no matter what. But the thing is that by being All and One they becomes one under the Truth, who embodies both at the same time.
But again, let's just wait for this to be queued and eventually evaluated. If he, or even I, missed something or he changed opinion about the topic, he can say it when the time will come.
 
Doesn't the Truth get surprised from Ed's answer at the ending? I dunno if this adds anything relevant though.
 
Doesn't the Truth get surprised from Ed's answer at the ending? I dunno if this adds anything relevant though.
Dont think evoking mental processes from a higher being would be an antifeat to 1-A or else that'd be like saying us being emotionally affected by fictional beings elevates them to same level of reality. Plus it's not really like that either since it's a "game" set up by Truth where if you give up alchemy entirely then you "beat" him (completely metaphorical and symbolic defeat).
 
Yeah, that just seems to take a vague description and runs way too far with it by taking it extremely literally in a specific way. The monologue isn't supposed to mean that it is nondual regarding the quality of "one or multiple", much less that it transcends the idea of quantity as a whole.
It's meant more in the direction of "one building is also simultaneously every brick in the building". It's the many things that make up the world and also the world as a great whole. It's an omnipresence thing for the most part.

That Father in any capacity, no matter how temporarily or just a part of it or anything, could get god absorbed is also just clearly going against that. (And he definitely did, given that he was empowered by doing that)
 
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That Father in any capacity, no matter how temporarily or just a part of it or anything, could get god absorbed is also just clearly going against that. (And he definitely did, given that he was empowered by doing that)
This is just, objectively wrong and taken extremely far out of context
Firstly, Father only absorbed the gates of truth of the sun and the earth, and saying he even affected truth is laughably wrong, especially considering the last pages of the album you sent where not only does Truth points out that no, he did not mess with Truth, but also that what Father thought was "God" was wrong in the first place considering how he was literally face to face with Truth and didn't recognize Truth
Secondly, even if we for some unfathomable reason decided to ignore the above, the means through which Father even performed this was via Alchemy and his own Gate of Truth, which is something that """"scales"""" to Truth anyways

Edit:
I haven't addressed the rest of the point because it is simply just a bad reading of the text at hand, rather than something that is quite literally objectively wrong by what the verse itself has said
 
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I am a bit tired recently, but I will try to reply regardless.

Yeah, that just seems to take a vague description and runs way too far with it by taking it extremely literally in a specific way. The monologue isn't supposed to mean that it is nondual regarding the quality of "one or multiple", much less that it transcends the idea of quantity as a whole.
It's meant more in the direction of "one building is also simultaneously every brick in the building". It's the many things that make up the world and also the world as a great whole. It's an omnipresence thing for the most part.
This seems an argument out of incredulity more than anything. It says that he is All and One. Omnipresence is just being everything, not all the blocks that form said everything, while saying that he is everything in the sense that he is simply every piece that makes up the whole would mean actively ignoring him saying that he is "All" and "the Universe". He can't be both the "Universe" and "You", and ignoring what he says in favor of your interpretation would be wrong to me, if you can't bring up any evidence that your interpretation is more correct.

That Father in any capacity, no matter how temporarily or just a part of it or anything, could get god absorbed is also just clearly going against that. (And he definitely did, given that he was empowered by doing that)
You left out two very important details about this:
1) the Father obtained enough power to perform the feat by absorbing the power of the Gates within the five sacrifice in the first place. (second scan, the translation isn't the best, unfortunately). So it would fall under the case of someone reaching a 1-A level thanks to a 1-A element.
2) despite what I just said, the Father never achived such level of power in the first place, as you can see in his own profile since a scaling between him and the Truth has been rejected repeatedly. What Father absorbed is the Gate created by the ecplise, and we can see it when he does so since the Gate is the thing that falls down and fuse with him while the Eye stay in the sky and simply disappear. We are given undeniable prove of this when, even after Father supposedly "absorbed" the Truth, both the Truth and the Gate are seen to be completely unaffected, acting like nothing is happening. If the Truth in its totality was absorbed, than All of the Truth would be inside of him, but we actively see that's not the case. The thing is that he did "absorb" the Truth, because the Truth is All and One, and by absorbing even one Gate he technically absorbed "The One" of the Truth. But he cannot do anything to the "All" that is the Truth, and we can see prove of this directly. Unless you can provide evidence that Father absorbed the Truth in it's entirety, the "All" that it is, than I disagree with your arguments. Still there might be something I am missing, so if there is please let me know.

Will reply to possible further message either tomorrow if I have time or in the next few days.
 
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