Fujitora Meteor Calc Issue (Meteor #2)

[Damage3245]

This thread is to address a specific issue on one of the meteor calculations that I've noticed and I think requires some discussion in order to resolve. I anticipate that the concerns I'm raising could be controversial but I request that just staff members and calc group members voice their opinions here on deciding whether or not the concerns are valid.

Context

The original calc by KingTempest for Fujitora's second meteor feat is here. It was updated with a new atmosphere height so the result there isn't the result that is currently being used, but all of the measurements for the meteor's volume are there.

The issue is that in order to find the volume & mass of the meteor for the KE calc, the diameter of the meteor needs to be scaled; yet the meteor itself is not visible in that panel.

Here is a shot of the feat in the original black and white manga.

Here is a shot of the feat in the digital colored version of the manga.

Since the meteor isn't actually visible in the manga, KingTempest has used "the meteor's ablated end" or the tail of the meteor, with the basis that is the trailing tail end of the meteor would be smaller than the meteor itself and can be used to estimate the diameter of the meteor.

My issues with this is that it doesn't actually look like the tail of the meteor is what is being scaled here. There is no upward trail from it towards the sky suggesting the path of the meteor and its shape looks more like an explosion/fire blast from the impact of the meteor hitting the ground than something trailing behind the meteor itself. The meteor not being visible at all increases the doubt as to how can we actually compare what is on panel there to the meteor itself.

I know that it could be unclear just looking at the still frame of the manga version itself to decide whether or not what is scaled there reflects the meteor's size, so I've looked at the anime version as a secondary source to fall back on and provide further clarification.

Here is the feat linked via the frame-by-frame website.

- At frame 475 we can see what appears to be the explosion of the meteor's impact beginning to form and what seems to be the tail end of the meteor above it.

- At frame 476 we can see the explosion expand and the meteor's tail end a little clearer.

- At frame 478 we can see the explosion expanding even further and the meteor's tail end has disappeared.

In the anime itself, we don't see the meteor clearly either and when it adapts the original panel that has been pixel-scaled, the anime makes it clear that it is not the ablated end of the meteor but the impact explosion of the meteor itself. It shows what could be the tail further up, and it is much smaller than the explosion itself.

Conclusion

Given that the meteor isn't visible at all in the manga version of the feat, and the anime version shows that the actual "tail" of the meteor is quite small and what is being scaled in the manga is actually an explosion caused by the meteor's impact, I don't think we can take the calced meteor's volume as being reliable and the calc shouldn't be used.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah no
In the manga, that looks nothing like the explosion at all, unlike the anime where it's pretty blatantly an explosion

The only "explosion" visible in the manga is the dust shot everywhere.

This mimics literally every other meteor by Issho where the tail is relative to the meteor in size.

There is no upward trail from it towards the sky suggesting the path of the meteor

Because the meteor already landed. There wouldn't be a trail for a stagnant meteor.

and its shape looks more like an explosion/fire blast from the impact of the meteor hitting the ground than something trailing behind the meteor itself. The meteor not being visible at all increases the doubt as to how can we actually compare what is on panel there to the meteor itself.

Explosions and fire blasts are omnidirectional, like in the anime.
This wasn't. It was directly pointed in 1 diagonal direction. Explosions don't move like this.

- At frame 475 we can see what appears to be the explosion of the meteor's impact beginning to form and what seems to be the tail end of the meteor above it.

That does not seem to be the tail end of the meteor.
How is the tail end of the meteor disconnected from the actual meteor?
How is the tail of the meteor disconnected from the actual rock that already landed?

You attempting to say the meteor tail is that small is like saying the meteor is smaller than Law, which it's not, as we see meteor fragments relative to Law in size.

 

[Damage3245]

In the manga, that looks nothing like the explosion at all, unlike the anime where it's p

it looks pretty much like it to me.

The manga and the anime. We see the dust clouds off to the side for each, and we see the explosion in the middle for each.

Because the meteor already landed. There wouldn't be a trail for a stagnant meteor.
Explosions and fire blasts are omnidirectional, like in the anime.
This wasn't. It was directly pointed in 1 diagonal direction. Explosions don't move like this.

You seem to be contradicting yourself where you say there wouldn't be a trail for the meteor then say that the trail is pointing up in a specific direction.

As for "explosions don't move like this." We only see a single frame of it in the manga, where it looks to me like the explosion is forming from the meteor's impact and would have gone on to spread outwards.

The anime then elaborates on this and shows us the full picture. In the manga, that certainly looks more like an explosion shape than the flame-like trails for the other meteors.

That does not seem to be the tail end of the meteor.

What could it be?

How is the tail end of the meteor disconnected from the actual meteor?
How is the tail of the meteor disconnected from the actual rock that already landed?

Since the animators didn't draw the meteor itself on-screen, I'm not sure. But it seems like they drew it there to convey the path of the meteor.

You attempting to say the meteor tail is that small is like saying the meteor is smaller than Law, which it's not, as we see meteor fragments relative to Law in size.

I'm not saying that the meteor is actually that small or that it is smaller than Law.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I kinda have to agree with Damage here upon revisitation of the feat

We don't really see the meteor at all, and while it could be argued that the pixel scaled size is just the flame trail of the Meteor, the Anime kinda supports that it's an explosion, so I can't in good conscious 100% agree to the meteor size used in the calc...

I know this potentially sets shit back, but Damage brings up a solid point here

 

[Damage3245]

I appreciate the evaluation. I wish the feat was more clear-cut but in a case like this, I have to err on the side of caution with what we can scale off of the page and sometimes we just don't have the ability to accurately scale what's there.

 

[KingTempest]

it looks pretty much like it to me.

The manga and the anime. We see the dust clouds off to the side for each, and we see the explosion in the middle for each.

The anime has a circular shockwave around the fireball. The manga does not. Even the second meteor later in the anime shows the same thing, which contradicts it.

The manga has the entire island engulfed in dust while the anime only has a shockwave around it.

You seem to be contradicting yourself where you say there wouldn't be a trail for the meteor then say that the trail is pointing up in a specific direction.

I said the tail is pointed in 1 direction, not the trail.

As for "explosions don't move like this." We only see a single frame of it in the manga, where it looks to me like the explosion is forming from the meteor's impact and would have gone on to spread outwards.

We can see Law, at the impact point of the meteor, and we don't see a ridiculously large explosion overtaking him.

Law rolled away to an area with no flames. Literally rolled away.

Do you have an explanation for Law rolling away from an explosion which is supposed to overtake the vast majority of the area?

It didn't spread outwards. Canonically it didn't spread outwards. Nothing says it spreaded outwards. Even the anime doesn't show it spreading outwards.

The anime then elaborates on this and shows us the full picture. In the manga, that certainly looks more like an explosion shape than the flame-like trails for the other meteors.

Damage, outside of a mushroom cloud based nuclear explosion, what explosion has there ever been where the fireball only expands in a single direction.

What could it be?

That isn't something I know. But you're assuming it's the tail of the meteor when it isn't even connected to the meteor, and the literal first frame we see of it already has the meteor hitting the ground and vastly far off.

My assumption is in the response directly below me

Since the animators didn't draw the meteor itself on-screen, I'm not sure. But it seems like they drew it there to convey the path of the meteor.

That can be a sign for the anime to convey the path of the meteor. That doesn't mean that that's actually a part of the meteor.

What you're effectively saying is that a movement line in manga is a part of somebody's body.

I'm not saying that the meteor is actually that small or that it is smaller than Law.

Damage.
Saying that that tiny ass dot on the screen is the tail of the meteor is directly saying that the meteor is that small. Regardless if you're saying it's that small or not, that's what that proves.

 

[CloverDragon03]

it looks pretty much like it to me.

The manga and the anime. We see the dust clouds off to the side for each, and we see the explosion in the middle for each.

Okay no, I'm definitely disagreeing on this. The manga depiction is more like a fireball crashing down (and well, meteors heat up as they enter the atmosphere, so that makes sense). The anime version looks like an explosion, but the anime is not the primary canon

 

[Damage3245]

The anime has a circular shockwave around the fireball. The manga does not. Even the second meteor later in the anime shows the same thing, which contradicts it.
The manga has the entire island engulfed in dust while the anime only has a shockwave around it.

The anime is not going to perfectly match Oda's art style; but there is nothing in the anime supporting the meteor being scaled to the blast in the manga.

We can see Law, at the impact point of the meteor, and we don't see a ridiculously large explosion overtaking him.
Law rolled away to an area with no flames. Literally rolled away.
Do you have an explanation for Law rolling away from an explosion which is supposed to overtake the vast majority of the area?

I don't think that Law was standing directly at the spot where the meteor impacted; he was just close to it. In the panel where we see Law on here, we saw what appears to be the fireblast/explosion behind him. The force of that impact would have helped launch the rolling Law further away too.

It didn't spread outwards. Canonically it didn't spread outwards. Nothing says it spreaded outwards. Even the anime doesn't show it spreading outwards.
Damage, outside of a mushroom cloud based nuclear explosion, what explosion has there ever been where the fireball only expands in a single direction.

I don't think it was solely in a single direction; we just don't see enough of it clearly in the manga. It doesn't help that a portion of it is covered up by vegetation / foliage.

That isn't something I know. But you're assuming it's the tail of the meteor when it isn't even connected to the meteor, and the literal first frame we see of it already has the meteor hitting the ground and vastly far off.

Not the tail then, but the trail of the meteor's path. It being disconnected is just a part of the animation and when seen in regular speed nothing looks amiss. It is clearly supposed to be related to the meteor.

That can be a sign for the anime to convey the path of the meteor. That doesn't mean that that's actually a part of the meteor.

Sure. But it doesn't support the huge size found by scaling the blast in the manga panel.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay no, I'm definitely disagreeing on this. The manga depiction is more like a fireball crashing down (and well, meteors heat up as they enter the atmosphere, so that makes sense). The anime version looks like an explosion, but the anime is not the primary canon

I didn't say the anime was the primary canon.

It's a supporting canon that can be looked at for disputed manga scenes / vague feats. I don't think the manga gives us a clear enough image to accurately judge the meteor's size.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I didn't say the anime was the primary canon.

It's a supporting canon that can be looked at for disputed manga scenes / vague feats. I don't think the manga gives us a clear enough image to accurately judge the meteor's size.

"Disputed manga scenes" When the anime and manga contradict each other, we go with whatever's the primary canon, which is the manga. And the manga shows this as a fireball crashing down rather than an explosion.

 

[Damage3245]

"Disputed manga scenes" When the anime and manga contradict each other, we go with whatever's the primary canon, which is the manga. And the manga shows this as a fireball crashing down rather than an explosion.

That's not how I'm looking at it. It's not "Manga vs. Anime" but "Manga vs. Manga & Anime".

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's not how I'm looking at it. It's not "Manga vs. Anime" but "Manga vs. Manga & Anime".

How does that make sense though? This is the kind of thing that would be grounds for a "Manga vs. Anime" kind of comparison

 

[KingTempest]

The anime is not going to perfectly match Oda's art style; but there is nothing in the anime supporting the meteor being scaled to the blast in the manga.

The anime flat out showing an entirely different effect is different.

This isn't an art style issue. This is an adaption issue. The anime flat out showed a drastically different effect.
There isn't a single thing in the anime after the impact that matched the manga other than Law getting sent flying.

I don't think that Law was standing directly at the spot where the meteor impacted; he was just close to it. In the panel where we see Law on here, we saw what appears to be the fireblast/explosion behind him. The force of that impact would have helped launch the rolling Law further away too.

This doesn't answer anything at all.
This would mean that Law wasn't even at the impact point and he'd just fly away from the shockwave.
Newsflash, the flames would've still enveloped him, unless you're attempting to say the blast sent him flying like a couple hundred meters away before the flame even touched him.

I don't think it was solely in a single direction; we just don't see enough of it clearly in the manga. It doesn't help that a portion of it is covered up by vegetation / foliage.

We do. And we see that the flame doesn't go out in every direction.
The vegetation/foilage would've been burned or blown away.
Law would've been enveloped by flames if it was an explosion, which we see it isn't.
Law would've made contact with it.

Not the tail then, but the trail of the meteor's path. It being disconnected is just a part of the animation and when seen in regular speed nothing looks amiss. It is clearly supposed to be related to the meteor.

It can be the trail of the meteor. That would automatically cut out like 40% of the OP

Sure. But it doesn't support the huge size found by scaling the blast in the manga panel.

The fact that there was no omnidirectional explosion in the manga means that the only thing the fire could be is the alabated portion of the meteor.
Explosions move in all directions. This not moving in all directions means that flame in the manga isn't part of the explosion.

 

[Damage3245]

How does that make sense though? This is the kind of thing that would be grounds for a "Manga vs. Anime" kind of comparison

The manga, like many feats and many series, is open to a degree of interpretation as to what is happening on the page. If there's multiple perspectives on what is happening in the page then supporting sources can be brought up to see which version or interpretation has more support. I think that the anime clip shows that the blast in the middle where the meteor impacted is not simply just the "smaller tail" of the meteor and therefore can be taken to be equal to the meteor's full diameter.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The manga, like many feats and many series, is open to a degree of interpretation as to what is happening on the page. If there's multiple perspectives on what is happening in the page then supporting sources can be brought up to see which version or interpretation has more support. I think that the anime clip shows that the blast in the middle where the meteor impacted is not simply just the "smaller tail" of the meteor and therefore can be taken to be equal to the meteor's full diameter.

Nah, I'm looking at the frames you're showing, this very much looks like the tail of the meteor. I even checked the frame-by-frame video and went through it myself, you can see the tail's trail visibly begin to disappear before the explosion engulfs it, as the tail normally would (the trail left behind by the tail disappears after some time)

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally, it looks more like the explosion/fireball to me than something indicative of the meteor's size.

(I also kinda don't like the Sunny to Marine ship scaling as it looks kinda background foreground to me. Although IIRC we had some debate about scaling stuff around this feat before with greater context and I don't remember if the conclusion of that affects this)

 

[Damage3245]

The meteor not being visible at all makes this an unreliable calc. There's no way of confirming whether what is being scaled in the original calc lines up with the meteors actual size.

 

[Therefir]

Using the fireball of a meteor that has already landed to calculate its size sounds terrible.

If we can't see it, just don't calculate it.

 

[KingTempest]

If there's a part of the meteor (the tail of the alabated end) which is logically smaller than the diameter of the meteor, the meteor would/should be fair game.

The meteor just made contact in the picture. It's not like its been there forever. And the flame hasn't spread since we see in the next panel that it just started coming apart

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry for stepping away from this for a while. At present it seems like 4 of us are not in favor of the calc, and 2 of us are.

 

[Damage3245]

Is there anything else that needs to be said for this particular feat? The majority who have commented so far are in favor of removing it.

As a side-note, unless I'm mistaken, the characters involved scale significantly above this anyway, so no profiles will be impacted by this.

 

[KingTempest]

Is there anything else that needs to be said for this particular feat? The majority who have commented so far are in favor of removing it.

As a side-note, unless I'm mistaken, the characters involved scale significantly above this anyway, so no profiles will be impacted by this.

The characters involved scale significantly below this.

That was the outdated version not affected by the new atmosphere. They scale less than 40% of the value of the calc that this CRT affects

 

[Damage3245]

The characters involved scale significantly below this.

That was the outdated version not affected by the new atmosphere. They scale less than 40% of the value of the calc that this CRT affects

Ah, fair enough, I was wrong on that then.