Frisk vs Chara: PACIFIST VS GENOCIDE

[Yes850]

You can add it if you want I think but the conversation is still going and you need at least a 3 vote difference or else it's inconclusive.

 

[FateAlbane]

There are enough votes for it to be added, but it's best to wait one day or so before requesting it in the thread, just to make sure if anyone else has anything to say before this discussion is concluded.

 

[Kevinyang1]

One day?

Pfah. You liar.


In any case, I vote for Chara. Chara is likely going to keep whaling away at Frisk until they run out of DETERMINATION; which is circumstantial, whereas Chara works off of LV, which is impossible to remove without RESETing.

Also, even if Frisk goes full DETERMINATION and beats Asriel and breaks the barrier, Chara still shows up after the end of the post-genocide pacifist run; implying that they can override Frisk's DETERMINATION to not kill their friends.

And, I mean, heck; Frisk has the whole revival thing going on, but who's to say that Chara can't just swoop in and shatter their SOUL? Chara is clearly able to take your SOUL with or without your consent post-genocide.

In any case, I vote Chara.

 

[FateAlbane]

Lying is one of my specialties... But that wasn't my intention here at all. So in any case, what do you mean? I'm not the one who made the thread. I just gave an explanation, it's not my responsibility to go to the request thread and ask that this one gets added.

 

[Xmark12]

Thing is, Frisk sold their soul in Genocde, so now it's Chara's. But, this is pacifist Frisk, when they didn't sell their soul. Still though, 2 - 7 - 4 now.

 

[Kevinyang1]

No, in the Genocide run, Chara is clearly able to do whatever they want with or without your SOUL, and in the end, you have to give them your SOUL anyway; implying that you, the player, AND Frisk, are both powerless.

Also, to FateAlbane, I was joking. Jegus christ.

 

[Xmark12]

No, in the Genocide run, Chara is clearly able to do whatever they want with or without your SOUL, and in the end, you have to give them your SOUL anyway; implying that you, the player, AND Frisk, are both powerless.
Also, to FateAlbane, I was joking. Jegus christ.

I don't remember that at all in the Genocide run, can you give proof?

Last time I remember, they only do whatever they want at the end of the Genocide run, when they manifest themselves. Before that, you, the player was in complete control, not them. They were not able to do whatever they wanted with our SOUL until the end, when they manifested via your LOVE, EXP, Gold, etc.

 

[Kevinyang1]

No, in the Genocide run, Chara is clearly able to do whatever they want with or without your SOUL, and in the end, you have to give them your SOUL anyway; implying that you, the player, AND Frisk, are both powerless.
Also, to FateAlbane, I was joking. Jegus christ.

I don't remember that at all in the Genocide run, can you give proof?

Last time I remember, they only do whatever they want at the end of the Genocide run, when they manifest themselves. Before that, you, the player was in complete control, not them. They were not able to do whatever they wanted with our SOUL until the end, when they manifested via your LOVE, EXP, Gold, etc.

Do you realise, that we are talking about absolute Chara?

We are talking about the conceptual entity of Chara; the one who manifests.

In VS Battles, we always assume a character's strongest form, correct? Because seriously; if we aren't talking absolute Chara, and instead talking "narrator Chara", they're literally the weakest Undertale character since they can't do anything.

 

[Xmark12]

Nono, I know that. It's just that I can't see Chara overriding Frisk's soul because we're talking about Pacifist Frisk with their DETERMINATION at their peak, not Genocide Frisk when it's not. Who's to say Frisk can't just use their DETERMINATION to prevent that from happening? Asriel wasn't able to do crap, so why can Chara?

Plus, we've never actually seen their DETERMINATION 'run out' before. If you can give me proof that it ca run out though, I'd accept it.

 

[Cohobast]

Just because we've never seen it doesn't mean it can't happen. If Frisk is put in a hopeless situation for a long enough period it would make sense for their determination to fade over time. Asriel actually was doing damage to Frisk, he mentioned that every time Frisk died their grip on the world slipped and everyone would forget them a bit more. If Frisk hadn't managed to SAVE Asriel we can assume they eventually would have faded away entirely. As for why Chara can damage Frisk that mainly comes from their last attack which destroyed the entire game in their full powered form which presumably should be strong enough to kill Frisk once, even if they do come back through DETERMINATION eventually it should run out.

 

[Typhlosion130]

With full determeenation mode frisk stomps comletely. he pretty much can not die.

This ends with a very long drawn out battle where frisk widdles down chara's defences and items until eventaully he wins.

all because Frisk can't die or lose while in full determination.

 

[Kevinyang1]

A few things;

1: DETERMINATION is literally just that; how determined you are. We're obviously assuming that Frisk isn't some sort of machine that constantly outputs DETERMINATION, and that they have emotions, yeah? Well, then over time, their DETERMINATION will fade after millennia sitting in this void; continually getting whaled on by Chara.

2: Typhlosion, we've already made it clear that Frisk isn't going to attack Chara. Most of the discussions about "X" vs Frisk usually tend to be mainly centered around whether X can defeat Frisk at all. Think of Frisk as being like, the insanely difficult to kill enemy that does not damage; like an NPC in a game.

 

[Typhlosion130]

A few things;
1: DETERMINATION is literally just that; how determined you are. We're obviously assuming that Frisk isn't some sort of machine that constantly outputs DETERMINATION, and that they have emotions, yeah? Well, then over time, their DETERMINATION will fade after millennia sitting in this void; continually getting whaled on by Chara.

2: Typhlosion, we've already made it clear that Frisk isn't going to attack Chara. Most of the discussions about "X" vs Frisk usually tend to be mainly centered around whether X can defeat Frisk at all. Think of Frisk as being like, the insanely difficult to kill enemy that does not damage; like an NPC in a game.

Pacafist frisk has to kill asgore no matter what, in order to get to the pacafist route. at least once. if he has to he will. he's done it before.

and even if he doesn't. Frisk's dertermination is likly infinite as long as he has a cause to keep going.

 

[Cohobast]

Pacifist Frisk doesn't kill Asgore, just defeats him in a fight, huge difference since it would go against the game's theme otherwise. Frisk has a massive amount of determination but we can't assume it is truely infinite, if his cause is hopeless eventually it'll have to give out.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Pacifist Frisk doesn't kill Asgore, just defeats him in a fight, huge difference since it would go against the game's theme otherwise. Frisk has a massive amount of determination but we can't assume it is truely infinite, if his cause is hopeless eventually it'll have to give out.

No he DOES in fact kill asgore. there are a few different endings there where flowey doesn't give the "finishing blow" meaning that frisk DOES kill asgore.

 

[Kevinyang1]

Pacifist Frisk doesn't kill Asgore, just defeats him in a fight, huge difference since it would go against the game's theme otherwise. Frisk has a massive amount of determination but we can't assume it is truely infinite, if his cause is hopeless eventually it'll have to give out.

No he DOES in fact kill asgore. there are a few different endings there where flowey doesn't give the "finishing blow" meaning that frisk DOES kill asgore.

But...

That's only in the neutral run...

And Frisk doesn't even gain any LV whatsoever; even if you're only 1 LV away from levelling up, you still don't gain anything from killing Asgore. Flowey shatters his SOUL without any jingle or message or anything.

Not to mention, explicity in the pacifist run, Asgore is still alive.

Neutral Frisk is not Pacifrisk.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Pacifist Frisk doesn't kill Asgore, just defeats him in a fight, huge difference since it would go against the game's theme otherwise. Frisk has a massive amount of determination but we can't assume it is truely infinite, if his cause is hopeless eventually it'll have to give out.

No he DOES in fact kill asgore. there are a few different endings there where flowey doesn't give the "finishing blow" meaning that frisk DOES kill asgore.

But...
That's only in the neutral run...

And Frisk doesn't even gain any LV whatsoever; even if you're only 1 LV away from levelling up, you still don't gain anything from killing Asgore. Flowey shatters his SOUL without any jingle or message or anything.

Not to mention, explicity in the pacifist run, Asgore is still alive.

Neutral Frisk is not Pacifrisk.

but remember. you have to do a neutral run in order to get into the pacafist. you have to defeat omega flowey and "kill" asgore before you get the chance at pacafist ending.

 

[Kevinyang1]

Yes; but you do realise that you can commit a Genocide Run (excluding killing Flowey) like, as many times as you want, complete the neutral run with varying degrees of murder as many times as you want, and still get the true pacifist ending?

There are SOMe timelines where Asgore is killed by Flowey, and only weakened by Frisk. In fact, even when you "kill" Asgore, his SOUL is shattered by Flowey; not you.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Yes; but you do realise that you can commit a Genocide Run (excluding killing Flowey) like, as many times as you want, complete the neutral run with varying degrees of murder as many times as you want, and still get the true pacifist ending?
There are SOMe timelines where Asgore is killed by Flowey, and only weakened by Frisk. In fact, even when you "kill" Asgore, his SOUL is shattered by Flowey; not you.

its an example case where even if flowey isn't the one to kill asgore. he still dies. this can happen at any given time. and considering in order to compelte a pacafist run you're first forced to fight asgore (and in turn omega flowey) it shows that even this frisk will fight there is no other option.

 

[Kevinyang1]

Yes; but you do realise that you can commit a Genocide Run (excluding killing Flowey) like, as many times as you want, complete the neutral run with varying degrees of murder as many times as you want, and still get the true pacifist ending?
There are SOMe timelines where Asgore is killed by Flowey, and only weakened by Frisk. In fact, even when you "kill" Asgore, his SOUL is shattered by Flowey; not you.

its an example case where even if flowey isn't the one to kill asgore. he still dies. this can happen at any given time. and considering in order to compelte a pacafist run you're first forced to fight asgore (and in turn omega flowey) it shows that even this frisk will fight there is no other option.

Fighting someone doesn't make a pacifist run no longer a pacifist run. You can literally smash an enemy to within an inch of its life, spare it, and it counts as if you spared it without fighting.

Killing someone and shattering their SOUL (Their life, if you will) counts as "killing" someone. If you just demolish them, take them within an inch of their life, and then preserve their SOUL, you technically haven't killed them; since that SOUL can be revived by inserting it into a new body. Or, you know. That person's essence. FLOWEY COUGH COUGH

 

[Zerodestiny169]

Kevin is actually right. As long your foe's soul isn't shattered, you won't gain any exp.

 

[WDGasterBlaster]

In the neutral version you just destroy asgores body, he's still alive until flowey shatters his soul

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I vote Frisk because his Durability.

 

[Xmark12]

4 - 7 - 4

 

[DavideKirby]

I vote for Chara because she erased the timeline and the entire game!

 

[Xmark12]

4 - 7 - 5

But Asriel & Flowey kinda did that too, sooo...

 

[FateAlbane]

Sorry, but the reasons for these last two votes don't make sense at all.

"Frisk because his durability"...? And...? How is that gonna define the victor here? Will Frisk kill Chara with his durability? Because pacifist Frisk doesn't have any way (or intention, for that matter), of hurting Chara either.

As for Chara erasing the timeline, it's the same thing, that wouldn't kill full determination Frisk either.

 

[Yan3ngX]

Technically Frisk would die because both chara and frisk could have the same amount of determination, because in the end of the genocide run chara kills you and takes your soul to "the next world" (meaning* a new game)

 

[Blahblah9755]

Chara never possessed max DT Frisk, only genocide Frisk and post-genocide, post-final battle Frisk. And since True pacifist Frisk never aimed for stats, Chara shouldn't have absorbed any DT from them, only the Player.

 

[Aldahshan93161]

This fight could go in many different ways either inconclusive or chara wins or frisk wins inconclusive if frisk refuses to die and chara refuses to give up attacking and since both chara and frisk Have no way of killing each other they will just keep fighting each other forever since neither of them will give up , Frisk wins if they manage to save chara, chara wins if they manage to overcome frisk's determination or chara can simply refuse to be saved so frisk will lose hope and his determination will fade away giving chara the opportunity to kill frisk permanently

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Chara, this battles ends the moment Chara starts to thinks things through, think about it, if Chara just used her game breaking abilities then all Timelines would be erased, all of Frisk's friends Would cease to exist, with her friends gone so would her motivation and by proxy her Determination, and if Frisk wanted the world back then she have to give Chara her SOUL, Chara wins.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I think this is open for far too long and bumped up unecessarily.

Not to mention, it's very split at 4-7-5.

Closing this.