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Frieren: Beyond Journey's End speed downgrade

BadSystems

BadSystems

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Hi. Currently, every Frieren character who has a profile on VSB has a "possibly Hypersonic+" in their speed section because Frieren herself can use and keep up with lightning magic, and various characters end up scaling to that.

The problem is that the lightning spell that Frieren uses is never established to be neither real lightning nor real electricity. The Hypersonic+ ratings should be removed from the pages as they're completely unjustified.

This calculation which gets the speed of Frieren's Zoltraak to Supersonic+ (about Mach 3.2) should replace it. That's it, should be a simple thread.

Agree: @Zabazab

Disagree:

Neutral: @Arceus0x, @DarkDragonMedeus
 
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I think just saying "Hmm she's as fast as electricity" (assuming this spell, which is intended to be lightning, is even electricity-speed) is a poor justification, someone should calc it if they really want to use it.

Scaling to Zoltraak's fire speed which we directly see characters react to and dodge is a better justificaton.
 
Zabazab said:
I think just saying "Hmm she's as fast as electricity" (assuming this spell, which is intended to be lightning, is even electricity-speed) is a poor justification, someone should calc it if they really want to use it.

Scaling to Zoltraak's fire speed which we directly see characters react to and dodge is a better justificaton.
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no, the feat itself is the one when Frieren fights Solitar we see her counter like three lightning spells coming from several directions at once using perfectly placed small barriers
 
or rather it was Solitar blocking the attacks used by Frieren.
img.png
 
Arceus0x said:
no, the feat itself is the one when Frieren fights Solitar we see her counter like three lightning spells coming from several directions at once using perfectly placed small barriers
Click to expand...
Judradjim has no qualities of actual electricity or lightning, beyond being called "destructive lightning", which is the point of the CRT.
 
Either way the only real thing you need for lightning to be lightning speed is for it to come out of a cloud.
This is a spell that is called lightning and moves through air. It doesn't come out of the sky and so the lowball is assumed, that it is as fast as electricity is in air.
There is also no reason for it to be anything other than electricity since any other spell that spawns air or fire spawns air or fire, not a magical version that is weaker or slower.
 
Noted, but I don't think it being called "Destructive Lightning" warrants any speed tier at all. Should I put you in the disagree section?
 
Zabazab said:
Judradjim has no qualities of actual electricity or lightning, beyond being called "destructive lightning", which is the point of the CRT.
Click to expand...
if it looks like lightning, used by a mage that uses elemental attacks, is called lightning then there is no reason for it not to be as fast as electricity. That would simply be unnecessary scrutiny. It is one thing when it is a laser but this isn't a laser, this is lightning, it doesn't require some crazy proof that it is electricity when it is literally called that
BadSystems said:
Noted, but I don't think it being called "Destructive Lightning" warrants any speed tier at all. Should I put you in the disagree section?
Click to expand...
yes put me in the disagree section. While naming isn't as important when it comes to viewing abilities, that standard mostly comes into play when we have shit like black holes and light, aka, something very big that needs serious evidence and no contradictions. In Frieren's case it is something extremely common within verses - electricity, and it is called as such, and thus there's no reason to treat it otherwise.
 
Arceus0x said:
yes put me in the disagree section. While naming isn't as important when it comes to viewing abilities, that standard mostly comes into play when we have shit like black holes and light, aka, something very big that needs serious evidence and no contradictions. In Frieren's case it is something extremely common within verses - electricity, and it is called as such, and thus there's no reason to treat it otherwise.
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I think we should apply generally the same amount of care to lightning speed as to lightspeed and blackholes and stuff, all of them are pretty common in fiction. Lightning being a common phenomena doesn't mean it's exempt to standards. I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren.
 
Arceus0x said:
That would simply be unnecessary scrutiny. It is one thing when it is a laser but this isn't a laser, this is lightning, it doesn't require some crazy proof that it is electricity when it is literally called that
Click to expand...
A name simply isn't enough for the same speed rating as a natural phenomena, It doesn't display even one of the qualities of natural electricity or lightning and therefore does not qualify.

Even if it did, only the spell would be Hypersonic+, Solitär blocking it would need to be calced. And even then, characters like Fern certainly wouldn't be scaling to the demon that blitzed her easily.
 
BadSystems said:
I think we should apply generally the same amount of care to lightning speed as to lightspeed and blackholes and stuff, all of them are pretty common in fiction. Lightning being a common phenomena doesn't mean it's exempt to standards. I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren.
Click to expand...
No, we shouldn't apply the same amount of care. What's next, proving that the ice that looks like ice is 0 degrees celsius? Proving that the thing that looks like fire and acts like fire and is called fire is hot? Light has very strict rules and the amount of attempts at FTL wank are crazy, that's why there's scrutiny. Instead, here we have something that is called lightning that looks like lightning, shot by an element wielding mage and we scale it to electricity speed already. It is already scrutinized as it is since it isn't MHS+.
Zabazab said:
A name simply isn't enough for the same speed rating as a natural phenomena, It doesn't display even one of the qualities of natural electricity or lightning and therefore does not qualify.
Click to expand...
it looks like electricity and is called lightning and is used by someone who has mastered the elements. It doesn't qualify for the speed of cloud to ground lightning but it does qualify for electricity.
Zabazab said:
Even if it did, only the spell would be Hypersonic+, Solitär blocking it would need to be calced. And even then, characters like Fern certainly wouldn't be scaling to the demon that blitzed her easily.
Click to expand...
Solitar blocking three of them from different directions at the same time should make her upscale
 
Arceus0x said:
No, we shouldn't apply the same amount of care. What's next, proving that the ice that looks like ice is 0 degrees celsius? Proving that the thing that looks like fire and acts like fire and is called fire is hot? Light has very strict rules and the amount of attempts at FTL wank are crazy, that's why there's scrutiny. Instead, here we have something that is called lightning that looks like lightning, shot by an element wielding mage and we scale it to electricity speed already. It is already scrutinized as it is since it isn't MHS+.
Click to expand...
"I mean, yeah the attack is called Destructive Lightning and it's all zig-zaggy. So what? Magic arises from Subjective Reality and some made-up principles in Frieren." - BadSystems, 9 minutes ago.

Point is, no real reason for it to get anything off of the name and the way it's shaped.
 
BadSystems said:
Point is, no real reason for it to get anything off of the name and the way it's shaped.
Click to expand...
Aight bro brb gonna nerf every verse's elemental magic so fire isn't hot now, ice isn't cold now, air isn't windy ect. After all, they all look like the element they're supposed to be and are called that, but they just cannot be that element since subjective reality or whatever, it's just muh magic or sth.
 
Arceus0x said:
Aight bro brb gonna nerf every verse's elemental magic so fire isn't hot now, ice isn't cold now, air isn't windy ect. After all, they all look like the element they're supposed to be and are called that, but they just cannot be that element since subjective reality or whatever, it's just muh magic or sth.
Click to expand...
You mages and your demonic rituals and your fake lightning should be sent to the gallows methinks
 
Arceus0x said:
it looks like electricity and is called lightning and is used by someone who has mastered the elements. It doesn't qualify for the speed of cloud to ground lightning but it does qualify for electricity.
Click to expand...
These are false equivalences. Judradjim is called lightning, and we have strict lightning rules, so you're arguing it's electrcity-speed. However electricity-speed also requires evidence of the spell being natural electrcity: causing paralysis; electrolysis; powering technology; being conducted; or originating from a natural source. None of these conditions are met.
 
Zabazab said:
These are false equivalences. Judradjim is called lightning, and we have strict lightning rules, so you're arguing it's electrcity-speed. However electricity-speed also requires evidence of the spell being natural electrcity: causing paralysis; electrolysis; powering technology; being conducted; or originating from a natural source. None of these conditions are met.
Click to expand...
Ngl you're right. Screw it, I'mma go make a staff thread to remove the restrictions
 
While we have lightning standards, being that this isn't being treated as lightning I don't think they actually apply here. Especially because the profiles aren't asserting that the lightning of Frieren's spell is lightning but that it is electricity. And seeing as the magic system of Frieren is about visualization and we're shown across the series that people can summon and control things like water, wind, earth and fire, electricity being an exception makes little sense.

I think this should be fine as is for now as possibly rating, while the use of the speed calc provided being further proof of the supersonic end on the speed
 
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