Franklin Richards limit

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

New Fantastic 4 issue showed that Franklin can create a universe with a thought however after creating many universes his ability to craft entire universes is gone.

I know a revision was done but this however defines his limits. So I would say the proper tier for him possibly 2B.

What do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

I would personally agree that he is generally portrayed as tier 2-C or so. However, he also did recreate Galactus, who in turn repaired Multi-Eternity with the Ultimate Nullifier.

It is probably best to ask Matthew and Sandman31 to comment here.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I would personally agree that he is generally portrayed as tier 2-C or so. However, he also did recreate Galactus, who in turn repaired Multi-Eternity with the Ultimate Nullifier.
It is probably best to ask Matthew and Sandman31 to comment here.

2C, possibly 2B I would suggest

 

[Antvasima]

He hasn't destroyed or created over 1000 universes at once.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I do believe this issue proved Franklin is far stronger now than ever.... But that would require a lot of explaining. Here is my main question:

What should we do about the fact that the Celestials were treated as comparable to Multi-Eternity though ? Shouldn't that affect Current Franklin ?

 

[Antvasima]

1) Franklin was shown as having expended almost his entire power from creating over a thousand universes, and is now simply stronger than Thor, the Hulk, and the Silver Surfer. That is not remotely stronger than ever. It is a very low showing.

2) The Celestials are not comparable to Multi-Eternity as far as I am aware.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

1) Again... Another time for this. I'm not referring to Powerless Franklin. 2) The Celestials harmed First Firmament, and fought The Aspirants on even footing, who rivaled Lifebringer Galactus, whose equal to Multi-Eternity. Also stated to have created Multi-Eternity in Ultimates as well.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Neither am I. I am talking about that his powers were depleted so easily due to overexertion.

2) Maybe, maybe not. I think that this is part of Marvel's extreme inconsistency, as they generally tend to treat the Celestials and Franklin as 2-C level entities nowadays, and cannot seem to decide whether their multiverse is a High 1-B structure or just a large collection of universes, as the depiction changes from moment to moment.

In any case, it is no secret that I cannot make sense of Marvel's incinsistencies, so it is better if Sandman31 and Matthew handle it.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

1) I believe he did it due to his role being done, which is what both Reed and Owen hinted and stated on panel. But... Let's not discuss this.

2) It seems that way. They seem to contradict each other the very same issue it comes up in. And the difference is usually extreme.

 

[Antvasima]

1) I think that he was just depleted, but alright.

2) Agreed.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

2C is better I think. I don't think we will see that form of Franklin for a long time. I believe after he has some new lower feats he would need a new key. I strongly believe he will be Tier 3 or 4.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

1) Franklin getting depleted is head canon. His powers are still off the charts, he just lost his ability to 'imagine' Universes, which is just kind of a skill he lost.

2) Celestials hurt First Firmament with help of their weapons. Its a prep time feat, nothing less nothing more, and cannot be used for power scaling purposes

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

1) Stated to only be superior to Hulk .... But my point is.... His ability to remake realities, his new powers given by his role, was what made Griever believe him to be such a great threat. They even patiently waited for his new powers to go away before doing anything, implying he would be a grand threat with the "remaking realities" powers. She viewed him as a threat before, and after he lost them she literally oneshotted him. If that doesn't indicate him being weaker... I honestly don't know what else could.

2) Celestials fought the Dark Celestials who fought LB Galactus. The current Celestials were retconned to be as strong as LB Galactus. We can't change that.

I'm also personally conversing with Matthew about this situation as well. We do seem to come to a agreement that Molecule Man, based on comments from himself and from Secret Wars, suggest he didn't get any weaker after splitting himself (because he's one with all the iterations/split versions of himself, so he wouldn't get any weaker) . He hasn't given me a aanswer on what to do about Franklin though.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem, as usual, is that Franklin, Galactus, and the Celestials are extremely inconsistent from story to story, and sometimes even within the same stories, so I do not know the best approach, if we do not want a variable tier.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I was honestly debating a variable tier would be best. I've been saying that since the first Franklin Richards respect thread. This is due to supposedly many retcons to the power levels of some characters :

FR: Retconned constantly from Universal to Multiversal, literally in the same issue went from " He can't help save the Multiverse from the Beyonders " to " Being far stronger with the Beyonders for a limited time " . Him being a threat to someone who can oneshot Molecule Man.... If that isn't a retcon.... I don't know what is one.

Celestials: Barely Universal Entity , then became Multiversal, then Universal, then on par with LB Galactus. Then beaten down by Stark and She-Hulk (though there was a statement they are as powerful as the Celestials that fought LB Galactus.... One had the Celestial God Killer, and one [She-Hulk] was amped to be capable of fighting the Dark Celestials by Eson ... So her being higher than 4-B is... Justified, somewhat... Though I say we put her at 4-B to avoid future inconsistency)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with what Matthew and Sandman31 decide, but Matthew has been very busy IRL lately.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

1)"Your powers are off the charts" I don't see what kind of 'depletion' is that


Why Entropy didn't attacked before? We don't know. Wait for the next issues please

2)I never denied them being Life Bringer Galactus level, I said they aren't First Firmament level because it were their weapons who harmed the Firmament

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

As a side note, Jennifer and Thor were amped by Blood of Ymir, so, like its most of the time, it doesn't affects power scaling in the slightest

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

1) Being a threat to someone, then getting oneshotted after losing your warping implies a decrease. Either that, or it's a PIS moment (It's more likely the latter, in fact him losing the reality warping is a PIS in and of itself) .

2) Literally stated she waited for Franklin's new ability (specifically stated by MM to be endowed on Franklin due to the current role he played in Creation) to create new realities to be gone before striking . I'm sorry. I don't see anything hinting this isn't the case.

2) I agree with them being LB Galactus level.

3) Yes I believe them fighting on par with the Celestials was only due to the "likely permanent" enhancements to their AP . I just don't know whether we put a key implying they are on Current Celestial level or just put 4-B and state they are ludicrously stronger than before.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

1) 'Threat to someone' based on what? Why she didn't attacked before is clearly unknown, we have to wait and see what happens in the next issues before coming to a conclusion

2) Yeah that is the case. Entropy waited for Franklin's ability to 'imagine' realities get exhausted before striking, why didn't she struck before? Was she afraid? Or anything else? We don't know

3)The amp from the Blood of Ymir faded away in the same fight against Final Host.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

1) "Finally the boy-God's reign is over. Time to destroy everything" The finally here is hinting she waited clearly. If he wasn't a threat, there wasn't any possible reason for her waiting if she's powerful enough to oneshot Molecule Man (Who me and Matt seemed to agree that he was just as powerful as he was during the Beyonders arc) .

2) Not afraid, but threatened. I've discussed with a few other people, and they seemed to come to the same general agreement that she was threatened by Franklin ? However, like mentioned we can only wait... But it is still a legitimate way of seeing it.

3) Really ? I didn't get such a indication from reading it. Anyways.... I still believe it's a notable enough amp to be used as a key . We've given keys to amps that only lasted a mere issue before . Obviously she would be 4-B without the Blood of Ymir and in her 'Beserker-like state' (because she was stated to be the strongest iteration of the Hulk, and remember Jenny did fight World Breaker Hulk) . At least until she gets more feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Molecule Man being killed (from behind while being distracted) by a character that has only demonstrated the ability to destroy universes, even though the MM is stronger than the Living Tribunal and Multi-Eternity, due to absorbing the power of the Beyonders, is a massive PIS moment.

However, Franklin was repeatedly stated outright to only be more powerful than Thor, Hulk, and the Silver Surfer, and to not remotely be able to create universes anymore. This was very explicit, and arguing further about it would be extremely unwise and unnecessary.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

A perfectly good debate.... Ruined.

Thank you for clearing up the 2nd paragraph though . I wouldn't call it more "stupid" as more a "difference in interpretation of scans" . Saying it's stupid is more likely to agitate someone than saying it isn't "wise" . Wording is fundamental . I can debate on that being PIS tho... But I'm tired so I won't do it ATM. I'm going to sleep. I haven't had any sleep in days. Goodnight everyone.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

1) Like I said before, his ability to craft Universes was why Entropy didn't attacked already. Maybe this particular ability was some kind of weakness for her, because Franklin's overall cosmic powers are as good as they were before. But as already stated, all of this is wild speculation and we can only wait for upcoming comics

2) See above

3) It was flat out stated by Thor "the magic is fading away"

There is no need for key, it was around for barely 1 issue

 

[Antvasima]

@Seed

Good night. I have changed the wording.

@Shivansh

No, you are the one using speculation against what was explicitly stated.

I would appreciate if you drop this, as it is an unnecessary waste of time.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

"She only destroyed Universes"

>She has 1 appearance yet. Very logical to decide her 'limits' based on that. Note the sarcasm

"He was compared to Thor, Hulk and Silver Surfer"

>I ROFL'd hard at this. He was stated "stronger than them", how much stronger? Can he snap them out of existence? Will he reach his limits defeating them? We don't know. But let us be completely brainless and argue Franklin's feats are invalid because Dragon Man said this

However

In that case, how about planet level Reinhard Heydrich?

or, Universal Chousin?

See how non sensical it is to decide a character's power by ignoring feats and going off baseless statements which are absolutely not conclusive in any shape?

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I just realized Reinhard would be barely Multi Continent level by the logic we are applying on Franklin lmao

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

@Ant I am asking to wait for the next issues, not speculating

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he was stated to not have enough power to create entire universes anymore, but to be stronger than the Silver Surfer. So all that we know is at least 4-B, but less than Low 2-C.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

He lost his ability to 'imagine' realities, that's a specific skill which he lost.

He is 'stronger' than Surfer, by what margin is unknown and can't be used to limit him. Like I said before, waiting for the next issues is best

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that you have a point.