Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

[Silvervigilant]

I mean I guess, but if so then I'm not sure that we could scale BoS Ken to anything but the Goten Sho feat.

Yeah i know, and Kenshiro going from Country level (Possibly Large Country level) to Multi-Continent level in a matter of minutes is pretty hard to swallow, but if we look at the fight, it's quite hard to say that he did not receive any boost in power, and we know for a fact that Kenshiro grows stronger, the stronger the enemy he faces.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah i know, and Kenshiro going from Country level (Possibly Large Country level) to Multi-Continent level in a matter of minutes is pretty hard to swallow, but if we look at the fight, it's quite hard to say that he did not receive any boost in power, and we know for a fact that Kenshiro grows stronger, the stronger the enemy he faces.

So from what I can tell:

>>54.6 teratons: 30% BoS Ken

>>182 teratons: 100% BoS Ken

76.47 petatons: 30% Ken after Toki's boost

254.9 petatons: 30% Raoh and 100% Ken after Toki's boost

And we know the rest.

The fodder like Jagi and such remain Low 6-B

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

by the end of the mamiya arc rei gets power crept into non existence (rip).

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Frankly I don't know if Souther should scale to 100% Kenshiro because the manga doesn't show the muscle buff ( the OAV's do though) but yeah Souther should scale to Raoh since he says he'd never beat Souther unless he finds out his secret and Souther only truly went all out in the second fight with Ken. So we either go with this scaling "Souther = Tenryu Kokyu Ho Raoh <Souther arc base Kenshiro (lmfao)" or we just don't scale Souther to 100% Kenshiro and Raoh at all.
I really don't mind.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Imo the scaling should be this, in part one:

low tiers: Ryuga, Shin, Rei, Amiba, Jugai, Colonel, unmotivated Juza etc. "At least Low 6-B" because Shin one shot Ken who was already far stronger than Jagi, Juza and Ryuga are all relative to Shin either directly or indirectly.

mid tiers: Shu, motivated Juuza, Souther "High 6-A" because Shu while not fighting with killing intent can damage Kenshiro and hurt him with his attacks, Souther defeated Kenshiro, Juuza's palm strike could have one shot base Raoh if Raoh didn't divert the blow by hitting his pressure points.

End of part 1 to early Asura arc:

Upper mid tiers: Toki, Solia, Falco, nameless Asura, Alf "At least High 6-A" (they scale to Tenryu Kokyu Ho Raoh either directly or indirectly)

High tiers: Kaiser, Shachi "At least 5-C likely Low 5-B" (Kaiser is only ranked below the 3 demon kings, elite shuras can match a thousand shuras who are all relative or above the nameless shuras)

top tiers: Han, Jukei, Yasha, Hyoh "Low 5-B" (Injured base Hyoh and Yasha were folding hundreds of the elite shuras, Han smacked Shachi and Kaiser in the past, Jukei reacts to and blocks attacks from an healthy base Hyoh who says he is not going to hold back against his master in their "death match".)

God tiers: Kenshiro and Kaioh "At least Low 5-B" (30 % Kenshiro literally beats a full power, matouki amped Hyoh and Kaioh is stated to grow stronger in the final fight and he is at least as strong as Hyoh)

 

[Silvervigilant]

Frankly I don't know if Souther should scale to 100% Kenshiro because the manga doesn't show the muscle buff ( the OAV's do though) but yeah Souther should scale to Raoh since he says he'd never beat Souther unless he finds out his secret and Souther only truly went all out in the second fight with Ken. So we either go with this scaling "Souther = Tenryu Kokyu Ho Raoh <Souther arc base Kenshiro (lmfao)" or we just don't scale Souther to 100% Kenshiro and Raoh at all.
I really don't mind.

Well i think Kenshiro did use Tenryu Kokyu Ho in the manga, you can cleary see Kenshiro's shirt explode out of his body as soon as stand up (note how the shirt is ripped into small pieces instantly), and this definitely wasn't due to Souther's attacks, since most of Souther's attacks hit Ken on the face, and i think is also worth to mention that in every version of the fight the Tenryu Kokyu Ho is used at the exact same moment.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Well i think Kenshiro did use Tenryu Kokyu Ho in the manga, you can cleary see Kenshiro's shirt explode out of his body as soon as stand up (note how the shirt is ripped into small pieces instantly), and this definitely wasn't due to Southern attacks, since most of Souther's attacks hit Ken on the face, and i think is also worth to mention that in every version of the fight the Tenryu Kokyu Ho is used at the exact same moment.

I don't mind Souther scaling to 100% Raoh tier, he literally scales to no one and Raoh does say he'd never face Souther directly if he didn't discover the secret which means even with 100% Souther would still be a significant threat.

 

[Silvervigilant]

I don't mind Souther scaling to 100% Raoh tier, he literally scales to no one and Raoh does say he'd never face Souther directly if he didn't discover the secret which means even with 100% Souther would still be a significant threat.

I know i just wanted to show that Kenshiro used Tenryu Kokyu Ho during the fight

 

[Silvervigilant]

Imo the scaling should be this, in part one:

low tiers: Ryuga, Shin, Rei, Amiba, Jugai, Colonel, unmotivated Juza etc. "At least Low 6-B" because Shin one shot Ken who was already far stronger than Jagi, Juza and Ryuga are all relative to Shin either directly or indirectly.

mid tiers: Shu, motivated Juuza, Souther "High 6-A" because Shu while not fighting with killing intent can damage Kenshiro and hurt him with his attacks, Souther defeated Kenshiro, Juuza's palm strike could have one shot base Raoh if Raoh didn't divert the blow by hitting his pressure points.

End of part 1 to early Asura arc:

Upper mid tiers: Toki, Solia, Falco, nameless Asura, Alf "At least High 6-A" (they scale to Tenryu Kokyu Ho Raoh either directly or indirectly)

High tiers: Kaiser, Shachi "At least 5-C likely Low 5-B" (Kaiser is only ranked below the 3 demon kings, elite shuras can match a thousand shuras who are all relative or above the nameless shuras)

top tiers: Han, Jukei, Yasha, Hyoh "Low 5-B" (Injured base Hyoh and Yasha were folding hundreds of the elite shuras, Han smacked Shachi and Kaiser in the past, Jukei reacts to and blocks attacks from an healthy base Hyoh who says he is not going to hold back against his master in their "death match".)

God tiers: Kenshiro and Kaioh "At least Low 5-B" (30 % Kenshiro literally beats a full power, matouki amped Hyoh and Kaioh is stated to grow stronger in the final fight and he is at least as strong as Hyoh)

What about Ryuken ?

 

[Eseseso]

Imo the scaling should be this, in part one:

low tiers: Ryuga, Shin, Rei, Amiba, Jugai, Colonel, unmotivated Juza etc. "At least Low 6-B" because Shin one shot Ken who was already far stronger than Jagi, Juza and Ryuga are all relative to Shin either directly or indirectly.

mid tiers: Shu, motivated Juuza, Souther "High 6-A" because Shu while not fighting with killing intent can damage Kenshiro and hurt him with his attacks, Souther defeated Kenshiro, Juuza's palm strike could have one shot base Raoh if Raoh didn't divert the blow by hitting his pressure points.

End of part 1 to early Asura arc:

Upper mid tiers: Toki, Solia, Falco, nameless Asura, Alf "At least High 6-A" (they scale to Tenryu Kokyu Ho Raoh either directly or indirectly)

High tiers: Kaiser, Shachi "At least 5-C likely Low 5-B" (Kaiser is only ranked below the 3 demon kings, elite shuras can match a thousand shuras who are all relative or above the nameless shuras)

top tiers: Han, Jukei, Yasha, Hyoh "Low 5-B" (Injured base Hyoh and Yasha were folding hundreds of the elite shuras, Han smacked Shachi and Kaiser in the past, Jukei reacts to and blocks attacks from an healthy base Hyoh who says he is not going to hold back against his master in their "death match".)

God tiers: Kenshiro and Kaioh "At least Low 5-B" (30 % Kenshiro literally beats a full power, matouki amped Hyoh and Kaioh is stated to grow stronger in the final fight and he is at least as strong as Hyoh)

Nice list, but where did you get that High and Top Tiers are 5-C? And where did you get the Low 5-B stuff from?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Nice list, but where did you get that High and Top Tiers are 5-C? And where did you get the Low 5-B stuff from?

They all massively upscale from the nameless asura. The nameless asura is the equivalent of Jagi in the land of the asura, he says verbatim that the all the other shuras are far stronger than he is and then we have the elite shuras who are stated to match one thousand shuras each get fondled by an injured base hyoh and an injured yasha. Kaiser is the highest ranked asura on the island aside form the 3 demon kings so he also scales above the elite shuras.

 

[Eseseso]

They all massively upscale from the nameless asura. The nameless asura is the equivalent of Jagi in the land of the asura, he says verbatim that the all the other shuras are far stronger than he is and then we have the elite shuras who are stated to match one thousand shuras each get fondled by an injured base hyoh and an injured yasha. Kaiser is the highest ranked asura on the island aside form the 3 demon kings so he also scales above the elite shuras.

But if you match 1000 shuras at once, it doesn't mean you're 1000x stronger unless they use something like a combined attack or there's something that says that someone has the power of 1000 shuras or openly says he is 1000x stronger.

Although IIRC Hyoh while half-dead fought a total of 300 shura.

Although that still isn't a multiplier without some statement that supports it.

 

[Silvervigilant]

But if you match 1000 shuras at once, it doesn't mean you're 1000x stronger unless they use something like a combined attack or there's something that says that someone has the power of 1000 shuras or openly says he is 1000x stronger.

Although IIRC Hyoh while half-dead fought a total of 300 shura.

Although that still isn't a multiplier without some statement that supports it.

Yeah that makes sense

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

But if you match 1000 shuras at once, it doesn't mean you're 1000x stronger unless they use something like a combined attack or there's something that says that someone has the power of 1000 shuras or openly says he is 1000x stronger.

Although IIRC Hyoh while half-dead fought a total of 300 shura.

Although that still isn't a multiplier without some statement that supports it.

the 300 shuras Hyoh killed were the elite ones who yasha states can individually take on a thousand. I see no reason not to multiply by at least one thousand if you are overall stronger than one thousand people at once, that's pretty logical to me.

 

[Eseseso]

the 300 shuras Hyoh killed were the elite ones who yasha states can individually take on a thousand. I see no reason not to multiply by at least one thousand if you are overall stronger than one thousand people at once, that's pretty logical to me.

I'm pretty sure multipliers can't be used like that unless there are combined attacks or something similar

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

I'm pretty sure multipliers can't be used like that unless there are combined attacks or something similar

if the scaling is the rejected then let's just upscale Shachi, Kaiser to "At least High 6-A likely far higher" because they can both bully named shuras far stronger than the nameless one and should scale above said elite ones. I want to know what others think first.

 

[Silvervigilant]

So what's the consensus here?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

So what's the consensus here?

People just have to decide on how to scale the shrua arc characters, if the elite shura multiplier should be taken literally or not. Profiles need to be made for other characters in the verse like Uighur, Amiba, Devil Rebirth, Jukei etc. and different keys need to be made for Ken, Juza, Hyoh etc.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, I think we've all agreed with the scaling chart doc that @Silvervigilant made, so we've agreed that 100% Raoh scales to the High 6-A feat so 30% Raoh scales to 30% of that (254.9 petatons).

We agree that BoS Ken scales way above the 54.6 teraton Goten Sho feat, and we agreed that since Silver's scaling chart gives the 30% Ken that scales to the High 6-A calc four multipliers of 3.33x, his End-of-Series self is 104.898 exatons (5-C)

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I think we've all agreed with the scaling chart doc that @Silvervigilant made, so we've agreed that 100% Raoh scales to the High 6-A feat so 30% Raoh scales to 30% of that (254.9 petatons).

We agree that BoS Ken scales way above the 54.6 teraton Goten Sho feat, and we agreed that since Silver's scaling chart gives the 30% Ken that scales to the High 6-A calc four multipliers of 3.33x, his End-of-Series self is 104.898 exatons (5-C)

@Confluctor @SamanPatou @Silvervigilant @Stefano4444 @ItalianGuy1234

Is this acceptable for you?

 

[Eseseso]

Ironic how this thread was meant to remove Raoh's High 6-A status but the new consensus is that he'll be just a High 6-A since there's no proof of Muso Tensei giving him a boost.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I think we've all agreed with the scaling chart doc that @Silvervigilant made, so we've agreed that 100% Raoh scales to the High 6-A feat so 30% Raoh scales to 30% of that (254.9 petatons).

We agree that BoS Ken scales way above the 54.6 teraton Goten Sho feat, and we agreed that since Silver's scaling chart gives the 30% Ken that scales to the High 6-A calc four multipliers of 3.33x, his End-of-Series self is 104.898 exatons (5-C)

@Confluctor @SamanPatou @Silvervigilant @Stefano4444 @ItalianGuy1234

Is this acceptable for you?

@Twellas

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[SamanPatou]

@Confluctor @SamanPatou @Silvervigilant @Stefano4444 @ItalianGuy1234

Is this acceptable for you?

Unfortunately, I'm not up to date with the current HnK ratings, like, calcs, multipliers etc..

 

[Stefano4444]

Ironic how this thread was meant to remove Raoh's High 6-A status but the new consensus is that he'll be just a High 6-A since there's no proof of Muso Tensei giving him a boost.

The remove was based on the poorly written profile of Raoh, isn't not like i wanted to downgrade him for no reason.

Anyway both scalings of Silvervigilant looks much better and its actually give a good justification for Raoh to be High 6-A.

 

[Jasonsith]

1. Intangibility with Musou Tensei should totally be intangibility and not nonexistent physiology.

2. For the AP scaling, may I be updated which feats at which ends are accepted, being "superseded by other feats or not"?

Then we can discuss what feats which characters scale from

 

[Confluctor]

@Confluctor @SamanPatou @Silvervigilant @Stefano4444 @ItalianGuy1234

Is this acceptable for you?

I have zero familiarity to the verse.

 

[Eseseso]

1. Intangibility with Musou Tensei should totally be intangibility and not nonexistent physiology.

2. For the AP scaling, may I be updated which feats at which ends are accepted, being "superseded by other feats or not"?

Then we can discuss what feats which characters scale from

1. I don't know enough to answer that.

2. Look here

I made a doc regarding the scaling, you guys can take a look, and tell me what you guys think. Feel free to disagree and ask me whatever you want about the scaling

Also, Beginning of Series Kenshiro >> the 54.6 teraton Goten Sho done by a Raoh who literally stated he had no energy left after using it all up in one final punch against Kenshiro.

But 30% Raoh is 30% of 100% Raoh, who as stated in Silver's doc is comparable to the Ken who scales to the 849.677 petaton feat, so 30% Raoh is 254.9 petatons (still easily High 6-A).

Also, since Silver's doc has Ken getting 4 multipliers of 3.33x each above the High 6-A calc, this puts end of series Ken at 104.898395 exatons (or Moon level).

The first 3.33x multiplier would put Ken at 2.832 exatons (still High 6-A but pretty high into it)

The 2nd 3.33x multiplier would put Ken at 9.441 exatons (still High 6-A but not terribly short of High 6-A+)

The 3rd multiplier puts Ken at 31.4695 exatons (5-C)

And I already stated the 4th multiplier's value.

The remove was based on the poorly written profile of Raoh, isn't not like i wanted to downgrade him for no reason.

Anyway both scalings of Silvervigilant looks much better and its actually give a good justification for Raoh to be High 6-A.

I know, and I apologize if I came off as rude.

I just thought the contrast between the consensus and the thread title was funny.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Honestly, I don't know why Existence Erasure was added back to the profile, I know it's a possibly, but it's kind of vague? It's stated to erase someone from existence but how exactly does it work? And for Nonexistent Physiology, I don't mind Muso Tensei having it (unless it gets properly debunked)

as for Raoh, I can agree with him being High 6-A now, but I think the profiles should be formatted better

 

[Silvervigilant]

1. Intangibility with Musou Tensei should totally be intangibility and not nonexistent physiology.

Atcually i'm fine with removing Existence Erasure for Ken, since it was only stated in Ken's rage, and we never see him erasing someone in the manga, but i think the Nonexistent Physiology should stay, Musou Tensei is stated to be nothingness, more than once during the series, it's also portarayed far different than your tipical Intangiblity, and there's also the fact that if Musou Tensei was simply Intangiblity then most fighters in the verse would be able to counter it via touki or straight up punching it like Kasumi did with the ghost wolf, but we know that Raoh (a Hokuto fighter) couldn't hit Ken while in MT. Also there are attacks in Hokuto Shinken that let the user phase through the opponent's defences, Musou Tensei would not be that big of a deal, if similar techniques already existed in HNK's verse, also after re-reading the "Existence Erasure" statement from Ken's Rage, i came to the conclusion that when it's said that MT "can erase a person's body from existence" it's actually reffering to the USER's body. This discards EE for Ken completely, but backs up Musou Tensei granting the user Nonexistent Physiology.

 

[Antvasima]

Atcually i'm fine with removing Existence Erasure for Ken, since it was only stated in Ken's rage, and we never see him erasing someone in the manga, but i think the Nonexistent Physiology should stay, Musou Tensei is stated to be nothingness, more than once during the series, it's also portarayed far different than your tipical Intangiblity, and there's also the fact that if Musou Tensei was simply Intangiblity then most fighters in the verse would be able to counter it via touki or straight up punching it like Kasumi did with the ghost wolf, bu we know that Raoh (a Hokuto fighter) couldn't hit Ken while in MT. Also there are attacks in Hokuto Shinken that let the user phase through the opponent's defences, Musou Tensei would not be that big of a deal, if similar techniques already existed in HNK's verse, also after re-reading the "Existence Erasure" statement from Ken's Rage, i came to the conclusion that when it's said that MT "can erase a person's body from existence" it's actually reffering to the USER's body. This discards EE for Ken completely, but backs up Musou Tensei granting the user Nonexistent Physiology.

Okay. That seems to make sense to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Atcually i'm fine with removing Existence Erasure for Ken, since it was only stated in Ken's rage, and we never see him erasing someone in the manga, but i think the Nonexistent Physiology should stay, Musou Tensei is stated to be nothingness, more than once during the series, it's also portarayed far different than your tipical Intangiblity, and there's also the fact that if Musou Tensei was simply Intangiblity then most fighters in the verse would be able to counter it via touki or straight up punching it like Kasumi did with the ghost wolf, but we know that Raoh (a Hokuto fighter) couldn't hit Ken while in MT. Also there are attacks in Hokuto Shinken that let the user phase through the opponent's defences, Musou Tensei would not be that big of a deal, if similar techniques already existed in HNK's verse, also after re-reading the "Existence Erasure" statement from Ken's Rage, i came to the conclusion that when it's said that MT "can erase a person's body from existence" it's actually reffering to the USER's body. This discards EE for Ken completely, but backs up Musou Tensei granting the user Nonexistent Physiology.

Easy agree from me, then.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Is it safe to remove Existence Erasure from the characters that have MT?

 

[Eseseso]

Is it safe to remove Existence Erasure from the characters that have MT?

Seems so.

 

[Eseseso]

Pity, really.

Always thought it was cool that Ken and other MT users had existence erasure.

 

[Jasonsith]

Okay. If Musou Tensei is "stated to be nothingness, more than once during the series, and also portarayed far different from your typical Intangiblity", then what is the stance for the removal of existence erasure? And anyone who can interact with or even harm Musou Tensei users (include Musou Tensei users and some Hokuto Ryuken users) will have interaction with nonexistent physiology creatures?

Also, Kenshiro and Kaioh fought in a volcano and in a certain phase in a geyser where poison gas is everywhere. And that both characters have to use specific pressure points to hold their breath and fight. How would poison interact with them if they are already having nonexistent physiology?

 

[Silvervigilant]

Okay. If Musou Tensei is "stated to be nothingness, more than once during the series, and also portarayed far different from your typical Intangiblity", then what is the stance for the removal of existence erasure?

Because we never see Ken actually erasing someone in the series and because the EE statement reads more like MT being able erase the USER's body from existence, which would be Nonexistent Physiology. Not mention the fact that Intagibility can be countered by other fighters while MT don't (with Kaioh being an exception)

And anyone who can interact with or even harm Musou Tensei users (include Musou Tensei users and some Hokuto Ryuken users) will have interaction with nonexistent physiology creatures?

Only Raoh, Kenshiro (only while being in their Musou Tensei state), Kaioh and possibly Hyoh

Also, Kenshiro and Kaioh fought in a volcano and in a certain phase in a geyser where poison gas is everywhere. And that both characters have to use specific pressure points to hold their breath and fight. How would poison interact with them if they are already having nonexistent physiology?

Well Kaioh don't have any technique that gives him Nonexistent Physiology, Kenshiro only have NP in his MT state, and Ken didn't use MT in that occasion.

 

[Jasonsith]

Because we never see Ken actually erasing someone in the series and because the EE statement reads more like MT being able erase the USER's body from existence, which would be Nonexistent Physiology. Not mention the fact that Intagibility can be countered by other fighters while MT don't (with Kaioh being an exception)

Only Raoh, Kenshiro (only while being in their Musou Tensei state), Kaioh and possibly Hyoh

Well Kaioh don't have any technique that gives him Nonexistent Physiology, Kenshiro only have NP in his MT state, and Ken didn't use MT in that occasion.

1/2. So Musou Tensei is a state of nothignless like "nonexistent physiology" unless you are another Musou Tensei user or you learn Kaioh level Hokuto Ryuken. And Kaioh does not have NP himself, just allows him to hit NP beings. And Musou Tensei itself is no "hakai" or existence erasure move at all.
Got it.
3. Why Ken was not using or implied to be using MT? Just a case of "the author forgets" or is there some issues behind how NP works in general compared to how Musou Tensei works in FOTNS? Kaioh has no NP nor Musou Tensei himself so him using pressure points to resist poison is understandable, but Ken... while his body is enduring the poison long enough him not using MT or any forms of intangibility or even NP is lame - that if Musou Tensei can cover better resistance against poison than his own body already can.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Musou Tensei is more than simple intangibility, Souther's fight shows those kind of techniques are countered by touki no aura techniques such as the tenha kassatsu. Btw, is anyone willing to explain to me why Raoh is getting upgraded to High 6-A when there's simply no proof he scales to Kaioh or the Ken who got stomped by Kaioh ? Raoh should be High 6-A because of his own cloud feat at the end of part 1 which can be interpreted to be high 6-A.

 

[Silvervigilant]

1/2. So Musou Tensei is a state of nothignless like "nonexistent physiology" unless you are another Musou Tensei user or you learn Kaioh level Hokuto Ryuken. And Kaioh does not have NP himself, just allows him to hit NP beings.
Got it.

Yeah both Raoh and Ken could control nothingness and thus could affect each other, for Kaioh's case he himself said that he could destroy nothingness, and it's fiction so is definitely possible for a character that does not have NP himself, be able to hit NP beings. For example Vampire Hunter D's sword can cut through non existent weapons

3. Why Ken was not using or implied to be using MT? Just a case of "the author forgets" or is there some issues behind how NP works in general compared to how Musou Tensei works in FOTNS?

Well when Kenshiro fought against Kaioh he wanted to prove Kaioh that love and sacrifice makes one stronger, Ken also wanted to show Kaioh that he still had a heart, Ken even stop to told Kaioh a story about his ancestors, not to mention the fact that Kenshiro was purposely taking Kaioh's attacks during most of the fight, and once Ken decided to finish him off, he was able to quickly incapacitate Kaioh with well placed counters, and outright defeat him with a powerful punch to his chest. Ken could have use Musou Tensei and quickly defeat Kaioh, but Ken wanted him to die as hero (also most Hokuto fighters tend to fight on equal terms)