final fantasy revision (dissidia mostly)

[XXKINGXX69]

Currently, on FF6 profiles, their speed is MFTL for this calc. Basically, Mog can use sun bath which apparently makes rays from the sun travel to the ground because the attack is called “sunbathing” shown here. This assumes that it makes light travel all the way from the sun back to the Earth for no reason when it could have just taken in light from the surroundings. Furthermore, there is 0 reason for this to scale to combat even in the pixel remaster. Its literally just Mog getting sunlight. No enemies can dodge it. The only other feats that are noteworthy are dodging lightning based spells which are stated to be from the clouds

The next speed scaling stuff is from Gilgamesh. Apparently he is capable of keeping pace with Sephiroth in his first key even though he’s never fought him before, that calc can’t be used for his first key, same for the other FF7 calcs. And you can scale him to the FF8 cast for his second key (the one for Dissidia), but this calc is used to scale the FF8 cast to MFTL+ even though its an attack no enemy can dodge in the game. The only other FF8 speed is Zell's Limit Break which needs a calc. I don’t know if limit breaks amp speed so you guys can decide if it would scale everyone else to him. We can scale Gilgamesh's second key and by extension the Dissidia cast to Lightning, who has MFTL+ calcs

I’ve talked about this on another thread, but these abilities for Dissidia characters who only appear in NT or Opera Omnia shouldn’t be on their profiles:

Immortality (Type 8,reliant on her Crystal which let Cosmos' group return from fading from existence after Cosmos' death) & Regeneration (Low-Godly)

No one in Opera Omnia or NT even gets these crystals. These are the only crystals they have, which has nothing to do with the crystals from the PSP games which grants low godly.

Immortality (Type 2) (Due to the crystal core of darkness's influence in the hands of Ardyn, warriors will not die no matter how injured they are)

This needs to go for every character except Ardyn with the crystal core of darkness. All this is because Ardyn with the crystal core of darkness was in control of the world of respite the warriors were in at the time, and he prevented them from dying. Seymour for example, would finally be able to die if Ardyn no longer had this power. This is more of immortality type 8 than 2, but this actually isn’t an ability. This is just Ardyn making others immortal, and it isn’t permanent at all

Resistance to Corruption & Body Puppetry (Due to their light, Warriors of Materia can dispel attempts to control them)

This never happened

Resistance to Spatial Manipulation, Deconstruction, and BFR (Can withstand the attacks of Atomos, who manipulates space[2], crush enemies down to a molecular level[3], and can warp them into another dimension[3])

No one in Dissidia can survive Atomos’ attacks either

Now its time for upgrades. These apply to characters in Opera Omnia

Its already accepted that anyone can create Torsions, which are basically portals that distort the space-time continuum that sends people to the plane between dimensions. Torsions are made of chaos, not space and time, which explains why they are rips in space and time. Chaos is a substance that has no concept of space and time, backed up by that same statement from Caius that Torsions which are made of chaos have no space and time. Chaos is basically what makes up someone’s soul, a pretty important concept in FFXIII but it obviously exists in other FF universes since they’re parallel and spiritual substances in FF like Mako, pyreflies and mist are pretty similar. Even Aether from FFXIV which is the spiritual energy has many similarities with mako like them making up both memory and soul (elaborated on later). Plus the FFXIV concept of Aether is just confirmed to exist in people from other FF universes, so chaos isn’t something that only applies to FFXIII. The thing about souls not having the concept of space and time is consistent with the Lifestream, a spiritual world, having different concepts of space and time

People who stay in a Torsion get their aether drained, making them tired and much weaker. King says that in a Torsion, he grows even weaker. Just passing through a Torsion made Maria weaker, enough to make her legs tremble. (Absorption of souls, memory, power and stamina). Aether makes up the soul and memory. Torsions cause the powers of people close to them to dissipate (Statistics Reduction, Power Null). Mog even says Torsions make people lose memories, abilities, backing all this up

Anyone who can open Torsions can close them as well. Also, Torsions transcend time and space

Without the crystal core of darkness maintaining the world's principles, everything would be erased from existence. This made monsters disappear immediately, but warriors with the light can resist this by holding on to their will (Resistance to Law Manipulation and Existence Erasure)

The proposal is that characters in Opera Omnia gain

Portal Creation, Soul, limited Memory (the effects of memory loss caused by Torsions vary), absorption, statistics reduction, power nullification, chaos manipulation, conceptual manipulation (via manipulating chaos, a spiritual substance that lacks the concept of space and time), time and space manipulation plus Resistance to Law Manipulation and Existence Erasure

Quite a lot of characters don’t use Torsions offensively in a fight, but in case of a versus thread here, I can provide proof if they do (For example, Kam’lanaut uses it offensively quite a lot)

Additionally, characters who can create souls in FF should get chaos manipulation, memory manipulation, conceptual and space-time manipulation too

Other additions

Ultimecia gets BFR for using a magic blast that teleports others away
The Emperor gets Fate Manipulation for making his caste spread to other dimensions by changing the future possibilities as noted by Yuri and Chelinka (possibilities refers to possible futures in Crystal Chronicles)

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Bump

 

[TartaChocholate]

Bit busy right now so I will give my two cents later, but for now:

1. Speed in FFVI
They can scale to Gilgamesh though, can't they? Gil in his first key can scale to Cloud in a very roundabout way, but it's possible. Cloud in Tactics appears after his fall to the Lifestream following the events of the Northern Crater, at this point he scales to Bahamut Fury and Red XIII's Stardust Ray. In Tactics Cloud fights as an equal alongside Balthier after the latter has defeated Gilgamesh. Balthier scales to Cloud's speed and Gil scales to Balthier. Just an idea, though I know it's pretty messy.

2. Atomos powers:
More of a question really. You mean that nobody should scale to Atomos in Dissidia in general, or the characters in Opera Omnia should not scale to Atomos? I thought that Summons in the first two games were considered as usual like in the main games and their gameplay heavy effects were regarded as gameplay mechanics, though I could have been wrong. >_>;

3. Torsions and Chaos:
How about "Space-Time Manipulation via Chaos Manipulation"? Explaining the effect and how they achieve it and all. The rest does seem pretty straightforward from a quick read.

I'll wait for what other's say, but TBH I am wary in considering all power sources the same just because they share similarities, and by extension granting abilities only one has shown to others that don't display them because "they should be the same so they should have the same abilities" based on said similarities. I see your point with Yshtola sensing Ultimecia and saying she felt an Aether, but that could easily be taken as sensing Ulti's power and Yshtola naming it with what she knows best (characters in the series can perceive stuff beyond their own type of power). The 20th Anniversary Ultimania also specifies that Spirit Energy/Mako and Pyreflies are equivalents, but doesn't say that all types of energy are the same, just notes similarities when there are. But again, maybe I'm being too wary here and wait for what other's say.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Bit busy right now so I will give my two cents later, but for now:

1. Speed in FFVI
They can scale to Gilgamesh though, can't they? Gil in his first key can scale to Cloud in a very roundabout way, but it's possible. Cloud in Tactics appears after his fall to the Lifestream following the events of the Northern Crater, at this point he scales to Bahamut Fury and Red XIII's Stardust Ray. In Tactics Cloud fights as an equal alongside Balthier after the latter has defeated Gilgamesh. Balthier scales to Cloud's speed and Gil scales to Balthier. Just an idea, though I know it's pretty messy.

2. Atomos powers:
More of a question really. You mean that nobody should scale to Atomos in Dissidia in general, or the characters in Opera Omnia should not scale to Atomos? I thought that Summons in the first two games were considered as usual like in the main games and their gameplay heavy effects were regarded as gameplay mechanics, though I could have been wrong. >_>;

3. Torsions and Chaos:
How about "Space-Time Manipulation via Chaos Manipulation"? Explaining the effect and how they achieve it and all. The rest does seem pretty straightforward from a quick read.

I'll wait for what other's say, but TBH I am wary in considering all power sources the same just because they share similarities, and by extension granting abilities only one has shown to others that don't display them because "they should be the same so they should have the same abilities" based on said similarities. I see your point with Yshtola sensing Ultimecia and saying she felt an Aether, but that could easily be taken as sensing Ulti's power and Yshtola naming it with what she knows best (characters in the series can perceive stuff beyond their own type of power). The 20th Anniversary Ultimania also specifies that Spirit Energy/Mako and Pyreflies are equivalents, but doesn't say that all types of energy are the same, just notes similarities when there are. But again, maybe I'm being too wary here and wait for what other's say.

They are scaled to Gilgamesh in their second key which is already MFTL+. If you have a reason for their first key to be comparable to their second key because you think they have no reason to grow massively stronger, then elaborate on it so we could probably get a "likely mftl+" on their first key

Atomos doesn't use its full power on anyone in Dissidia. We see that Atomos doesn't immediately break things down on an atomic level with all of their attacks

Y'shtola definitely isn't calling it aether because its power and she has no other word for it. The entire cast is aware that the UES in Opera Omnia is called "light", but if what you're saying is true she wouldn't have specified aether instead of light. If you didn't know already, Y'shtola is blind and can only see aether so that backs up what I said

I didn't actually say spirits are all the same power sources so they share the same abilities though. I said that souls in FF aren't fundamentally different in other universes, so all souls in FF including ones not from FFXIII should have chaos inside of them as well

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Tarta makes sense.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Tarta makes sense.

Which part

 

[Theglassman12]

Mog's literally using his own powers and magic to bring the light down to him in the ability, on top of dancing coming from magic as shown with FF5 having the dancer class coming from a crystal shard, something that's stated to be the source of all magic. So it would scale with anyone in 6 that's capable of using magic.

Also false, Cloud shows up in tactics as well as Balthier, the latter fought gilgamesh. So gilgamesh does keep up with characters comparable to 7's speed.

Do you have any evidence that they don't scale with the same powers or are you just going to say nothing like you did last time?

Since when did someone else giving them the immortality debunks them having said immortality in the first place? By that logic every type 8 immortal being loses it because someone or something makes them immortal. Give a better argument for why they shouldn't have the immortality.

Do you have any scans that Atomos can collapse any of the character's body down to a molecular level or no? Because just saying they don't survive it isn't really cutting it when they aren't fazed by the molecular destruction in the first place. Also this point has nothing to do with BFR so why did you even bother bringing it up.

Do you have any scans that chaos is a concept? Cause you have scans saying there's no concept of time or space, nothing about chaos being an actual concept.

 

[HST_Master]

I’ve talked about this on another thread, but these abilities for Dissidia characters who only appear in NT or Opera Omnia shouldn’t be on their profiles:

Immortality (Type 8,reliant on her Crystal which let Cosmos' group return from fading from existence after Cosmos' death) & Regeneration (Low-Godly)

No one in Opera Omnia or NT even gets these crystals. These are the only crystals they have, which has nothing to do with the crystals from the PSP games which grants low godly.

Those Crystals are made from Spiritus and Materias power, same as the previous Crystals were from Cosmos.

This needs to go for every character except Ardyn with the crystal core of darkness. All this is because Ardyn with the crystal core of darkness was in control of the world of respite the warriors were in at the time, and he prevented them from dying. Seymour for example, would finally be able to die if Ardyn no longer had this power. This is more of immortality type 8 than 2, but this actually isn’t an ability. This is just Ardyn making others immortal, and it isn’t permanent at all

No it doesn't need to go, it already clearly states their Immortality stems from Ardyn's use of the Crystal Core on their profiles

This never happened

And yes it did. Ardyn manipulated Ultimecia and Caius when he came to her aid and only the Materia Warrior's light could dispel his control

No one in Dissidia can survive Atomos’ attacks either

Atomos is a summon in Dissidia, 012, and an enemy in Opera Omnia. They can survive his attacks both when he's summoned and when he's fought as a monster. And before you suddenly say "Summons aren't Canon" or something along those lines, NT spends half the plot with Terra looking for the new World B's summons to assist them since she remembers using them prior. And for argument of Atomos never using his full Power....what reason in any circumstance would he have not to? Or that he can control what he breaks down?

Now its time for upgrades. These apply to characters in Opera Omnia

Its already accepted that anyone can create Torsions, which are basically portals that distort the space-time continuum that sends people to the plane between dimensions. Torsions are made of chaos, not space and time, which explains why they are rips in space and time. Chaos is a substance that has no concept of space and time, backed up by that same statement from Caius that Torsions which are made of chaos have no space and time. Chaos is basically what makes up someone’s soul, a pretty important concept in FFXIII but it obviously exists in other FF universes since they’re parallel and spiritual substances in FF like Mako, pyreflies and mist are pretty similar. Even Aether from FFXIV which is the spiritual energy has many similarities with mako like them making up both memory and soul (elaborated on later). Plus the FFXIV concept of Aether is just confirmed to exist in people from other FF universes, so chaos isn’t something that only applies to FFXIII. The thing about souls not having the concept of space and time is consistent with the Lifestream, a spiritual world, having different concepts of space and time

People who stay in a Torsion get their aether drained, making them tired and much weaker. King says that in a Torsion, he grows even weaker. Just passing through a Torsion made Maria weaker, enough to make her legs tremble. (Absorption of souls, memory, power and stamina). Aether makes up the soul and memory. Torsions cause the powers of people close to them to dissipate (Statistics Reduction, Power Null). Mog even says Torsions make people lose memories, abilities, backing all this up

Anyone who can open Torsions can close them as well. Also, Torsions transcend time and space

Without the crystal core of darkness maintaining the world's principles, everything would be erased from existence. This made monsters disappear immediately, but warriors with the light can resist this by holding on to their will (Resistance to Law Manipulation and Existence Erasure)

The proposal is that characters in Opera Omnia gain

Portal Creation, Soul, limited Memory (the effects of memory loss caused by Torsions vary), absorption, statistics reduction, power nullification, chaos manipulation, conceptual manipulation (via manipulating chaos, a spiritual substance that lacks the concept of space and time), time and space manipulation plus Resistance to Law Manipulation and Existence Erasure

Quite a lot of characters don’t use Torsions offensively in a fight, but in case of a versus thread here, I can provide proof if they do (For example, Kam’lanaut uses it offensively quite a lot)

Additionally, characters who can create souls in FF should get chaos manipulation, memory manipulation, conceptual and space-time manipulation too

Chaos manipulation is a possibly at best, it's too many assumptions to say it's 1 to 1 with Mako/Spirit Energy and Aether.

Other additions

Ultimecia gets BFR for using a magic blast that teleports others away
The Emperor gets Fate Manipulation for making his caste spread to other dimensions by changing the future possibilities as noted by Yuri and Chelinka (possibilities refers to possible futures in Crystal Chronicles)

Fine with these.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Those Crystals are made from Spiritus and Materias power, same as the previous Crystals were from Cosmos.

No it doesn't need to go, it already clearly states their Immortality stems from Ardyn's use of the Crystal Core on their profiles

And yes it did. Ardyn manipulated Ultimecia and Caius when he came to her aid and only the Materia Warrior's light could dispel his control

Atomos is a summon in Dissidia, 012, and an enemy in Opera Omnia. They can survive his attacks both when he's summoned and when he's fought as a monster. And before you suddenly say "Summons aren't Canon" or something along those lines, NT spends half the plot with Terra looking for the new World B's summons to assist them since she remembers using them prior. And for argument of Atomos never using his full Power....what reason in any circumstance would he have not to? Or that he can control what he breaks down?

Chaos manipulation is a possibly at best, it's too many assumptions to say it's 1 to 1 with Mako/Spirit Energy and Aether.

Fine with these.

Those Crystals are made from Spiritus and Materias power, same as the previous Crystals were from Cosmos.

Scans of them being made from their power? Don't remember seeing that anywhere. Materia doesn't even have the powers of Cosmos either

No it doesn't need to go, it already clearly states their Immortality stems from Ardyn's use of the Crystal Core on their profiles

This only applies to people in that universe and isn't something that applies even with verse equalization. You're not gonna give someone fire manipulation because they went to a planet that bestows everyone fire manipulation but only if they're on that planet right? Its not similar to type 8 immortality where someone is blessed to be reborn by someone else always. For example we don't give Naruto type 8 immortality because he was resurrected by Hagoromo. If you think this is type 2 immortality, everyone who regularly gets resurrected by someone else should have type 8 immortality too.

The fact that Ultimecia and Caius couldn't resist it proves that not every character can resist it. Caius also states he can't dispel it alone. Only characters who have shown to use it to resist the darkness should get it. The warriors resist Ardyn's darkness and evil will because they travel with other warriors that have the light in them. Jecht and Kuja for example only get it for travelling with Materia's warriors

Atomos is a summon in Dissidia, 012, and an enemy in Opera Omnia. They can survive his attacks both when he's summoned and when he's fought as a monster. And before you suddenly say "Summons aren't Canon" or something along those lines, NT spends half the plot with Terra looking for the new World B's summons to assist them since she remembers using them prior. And for argument of Atomos never using his full Power....what reason in any circumstance would he have not to? Or that he can control what he breaks down?

You don't see it crushing everything on a molecular level in its boss fights right? That implies they only do it right before they suck people into them, which is stated in the scan. Atomos doesn't do that in any game, it just absorbs other people's bravery

 

[HST_Master]

Scans of them being made from their power? Don't remember seeing that anywhere. Materia doesn't even have the powers of Cosmos either

She's verbatim.stated to be born from Cosmos' Will, She's literally Cosmos Reincarnated

This only applies to people in that universe and isn't something that applies even with verse equalization. You're not gonna give someone fire manipulation because they went to a planet that bestows everyone fire manipulation but only if they're on that planet right? Its not similar to type 8 immortality where someone is blessed to be reborn by someone else always. For example we don't give Naruto type 8 immortality because he was resurrected by Hagoromo. If you think this is type 2 immortality, everyone who regularly gets resurrected by someone else should have type 8 immortality too.

......hence the point of a Dissidia Key. 80% of what they do in Dissidia is only in Dissidia. And the Naruto example is terrible, Ardyn isn't actively reviving people. The Crystal Core is preventing anyone from dying.

The fact that Ultimecia and Caius couldn't resist it proves that not every character can resist it. Caius also states he can't dispel it alone. Only characters who have shown to use it to resist the darkness should get it. The warriors resist Ardyn's darkness and evil will because they travel with other warriors that have the light in them. Jecht and Kuja for example only get it for travelling with Materia's warriors

And what are you even arguing this for? Not only did no one say that everyone had this resistance it's specifically only on Warriors of Materia and before you even try to argue "Well only those characters on screen" every single character summoned by Materia has a will of light. Hell all characters summoned afterwards by the planet itself are categorized into whether they have a Will of Light or Darkness. No one said Jecht or Kuja could resist and specifically states no Spiritus Warrior can resist.

You don't see it crushing everything on a molecular level in its boss fights right? That implies they only do it right before they suck people into them, which is stated in the scan. Atomos doesn't do that in any game, it just absorbs other people's bravery

Dude Bravery is a game mechanic. And again Terra remembers using the summons previously since her 1st thought is to look for them, can't arbitrarily choose which summons she can and can't use to suit your argument. On top of that OO characters blatantly survive being sucked in.