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Well fawk, Zero's screwed unless he uses the ice chip and just freezes Cloud. This is likely a stomp though since he can't hurt Cloud
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FF Cloud vs Zero Z-era
- Thread starter Blueblur24
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He doesn't need the ice chip equipped to use freezing techniques though. in Z4 he uses them as EX skills without need of having to equip any chip, much like in MMX.BruceTheBatman said:
The only thing chips do is turn all of his normal charged attacks into an elemental ones.
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Feel free to go ahead and remove the Link match if this is true, coming from the guy who made it.PaChi2 said:
Does Seph also have resistance?
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There are items and equipment in game that let him do that, but it was debatable if it was game mechanics or not.
Should Seph's loss to Horus also be removed? Tifas loss to Tamamo is still valid as she doesn't use that.
Should Seph's loss to Horus also be removed? Tifas loss to Tamamo is still valid as she doesn't use that.
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The problem is that unless those spells whow the same level of potency Zero's hax could very well still work.
Resistances aren't immunities.
Resistances aren't immunities.
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Thanks for all the answers, guys.
EDIT: Well, the Ribbon does say it protects against statuses and Cloud does get actual immunity to them, they don't work at all (similarly how Materia setups and some spells make Stop, Slow and Insta death stop working on him). Still debatable if it counts as gameplay only or not though (saying this mostly because I've never quite put my finger on what's the exact criteria for it =P)
@BrucetheBatman: His resistances to status and time manipulation aren't magic exclusive though, from what I get. Several enemy attacks in FFVII that aren't considered magic, merely special moves, are capable of inflicting status effects (the Supernova itself, for example, can Confuse, Silence and Slow the party). Magic Barrier and Reflect however seem to work only with what's exclusively considered magic, though. Cloud also canonically has the Ribbon equipped (in his arm) as seen in Advent Children, though the defensive properties aren't really addressed in the movie.
Cloud's Death Spells and Skills, Odin and Finishing Touch's insta kill do work on robotic enemies in FFVII. However, they fail if the target resists Instant Death in any way (or Odin and Finishing Touch, they just deal damage). So if Zero resists insta kill in some way he has this covered in his favour.
I got a bit confused regarding transmutation given Cloud's profile does list transmutation among his powers, precisely the Frog spell, and he can resist the Frog status with the Ribbon. It is different however if this resistance is just limited to that spell and doesn't cover all of Zero's other powers.
Sorry, silly question: you meant Zero is 3000 times weaker or the other way around?
@Gargoyle One: Well, in Cloud's flashbacks if you try to inflict status against Sephy they won't work, IIRC. Also, Safer Sephiroth is immune to most of them: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Safer%E2%88%99Sephiroth (Amusingly to Stop but not slow, he will always cure himself from it if put under that stat, though via DeSpell, and more amusingly Bizarro Sephiroth, his previous form, is immune to Slow)
EDIT: Well, the Ribbon does say it protects against statuses and Cloud does get actual immunity to them, they don't work at all (similarly how Materia setups and some spells make Stop, Slow and Insta death stop working on him). Still debatable if it counts as gameplay only or not though (saying this mostly because I've never quite put my finger on what's the exact criteria for it =P)
@BrucetheBatman: His resistances to status and time manipulation aren't magic exclusive though, from what I get. Several enemy attacks in FFVII that aren't considered magic, merely special moves, are capable of inflicting status effects (the Supernova itself, for example, can Confuse, Silence and Slow the party). Magic Barrier and Reflect however seem to work only with what's exclusively considered magic, though. Cloud also canonically has the Ribbon equipped (in his arm) as seen in Advent Children, though the defensive properties aren't really addressed in the movie.
Cloud's Death Spells and Skills, Odin and Finishing Touch's insta kill do work on robotic enemies in FFVII. However, they fail if the target resists Instant Death in any way (or Odin and Finishing Touch, they just deal damage). So if Zero resists insta kill in some way he has this covered in his favour.
I got a bit confused regarding transmutation given Cloud's profile does list transmutation among his powers, precisely the Frog spell, and he can resist the Frog status with the Ribbon. It is different however if this resistance is just limited to that spell and doesn't cover all of Zero's other powers.
Sorry, silly question: you meant Zero is 3000 times weaker or the other way around?
@Gargoyle One: Well, in Cloud's flashbacks if you try to inflict status against Sephy they won't work, IIRC. Also, Safer Sephiroth is immune to most of them: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Safer%E2%88%99Sephiroth (Amusingly to Stop but not slow, he will always cure himself from it if put under that stat, though via DeSpell, and more amusingly Bizarro Sephiroth, his previous form, is immune to Slow)
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Why should they be questionable when they're equipment?
We can't arbitrarily write off abilities as game mechanics or not, because we might as well remove all abilities from both sides nad have them slug it out with wall+ level attacks.
We can't arbitrarily write off abilities as game mechanics or not, because we might as well remove all abilities from both sides nad have them slug it out with wall+ level attacks.
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Well, good news for Zero, he has at least TWO ways to kill cloud.
He is not resistant to Matter Manipulation or Absolute Zero, so these are the ways for him to hit cloud and kill him instantly.
Same can be said for Cloud: He has Death Manipulation, Petrification and Transmutation. Everything else is irrelevant since they either counter eachother's hax or it is basic abilities like elemental manipulation that wont matter.
Giving him enemy skill materia, he also has sleep inducement and transmutation via Frog Song.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Skill_Materia
I will concede that Cloud's Resistance to Time Manipulation is super basic, but honestly, he should still take this.
He just has more ways to kill Zero.
Higher ap? (I think). Death Manipulation, Petrification and Transmutation etc.
He has generally speaking, better resistances that matter (Cant get his soul ripped out and basically every status effect under the sun)
Yes Zero has both Absolute Zero and Matter Manipulation, but Clouds superior ap and more versatile hax should be enough to enable him to not use any at that start.
He should take this with high diff imo.
He is not resistant to Matter Manipulation or Absolute Zero, so these are the ways for him to hit cloud and kill him instantly.
Same can be said for Cloud: He has Death Manipulation, Petrification and Transmutation. Everything else is irrelevant since they either counter eachother's hax or it is basic abilities like elemental manipulation that wont matter.
Giving him enemy skill materia, he also has sleep inducement and transmutation via Frog Song.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Skill_Materia
I will concede that Cloud's Resistance to Time Manipulation is super basic, but honestly, he should still take this.
He just has more ways to kill Zero.
Higher ap? (I think). Death Manipulation, Petrification and Transmutation etc.
He has generally speaking, better resistances that matter (Cant get his soul ripped out and basically every status effect under the sun)
Yes Zero has both Absolute Zero and Matter Manipulation, but Clouds superior ap and more versatile hax should be enough to enable him to not use any at that start.
He should take this with high diff imo.
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Cloud should take this for the reasons above.
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- Thread starter
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Cloud-2
Zero-1
Zero-1
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Zero fra.
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This is ridiculous. Zero has like 4 attacks that can kill Cloud.
Close this, Zero has no chance of winning at all when he's 3000x weaker. Even though both might use hax a lot, they also fight with their actual weapons in a more conventional manner, and Zero can't sense power so he has no idea how powerful Cloud.
This is a stomp with speed unequalized too since Zero is too damn fast
Close this, Zero has no chance of winning at all when he's 3000x weaker. Even though both might use hax a lot, they also fight with their actual weapons in a more conventional manner, and Zero can't sense power so he has no idea how powerful Cloud.
This is a stomp with speed unequalized too since Zero is too damn fast
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Speed's equalized, and Cloud often doesn't lead with hax.
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I sent that by accident.
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Well, actually, on second though, if Zero has the Ice Chip on, most of his attacks will freeze anything it hits
Might vote Zero just for that, among other things I've said.
Jeez this is hard for me
Might vote Zero just for that, among other things I've said.
Jeez this is hard for me
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I know, but he has absolute Zero (hehe) in about a fourth of his moveset with the Ice ChipJs250476 said:
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Cloud-2
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I honestly think his time manipulation might be better then cloud's resistance.BruceTheBatman said:
It is not like it is that good anyway.
So there is that to add.
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Actually, the Ribbon doesn't protect Cloud from the Stop or Slow. However, with the right Materia setup (such as Added Effect + Time in his armor) or his Resist Spell, which blocks all status effects, he can render himself immune to Time Stop and Time Slows.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Resist
I guess I'll go with Cloud on this one. Mainly because they seem pretty even when it comes to hax, both have a couple ways to one shot the other and cancel a good amount of each other's haxy abilities, but Cloud keeps a big power advantage (and also durability it from what I get). Both seem to go for close combat as well; if Zero's AI is to go by he will go for insta-kills after being pushed or if things drag on (then again it could be just typical boss battle behavior). An scenario in Cloud's advantage seems more likely, is what I mean.
And, dunno if it counts, but Cloud does have armors that prevent Ice damage such as the Ziedrich, Dragon Bangle which halve it or the Aurora Armlet which absorbs it (he recovers health when hit by Ice attacks).
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Resist
I guess I'll go with Cloud on this one. Mainly because they seem pretty even when it comes to hax, both have a couple ways to one shot the other and cancel a good amount of each other's haxy abilities, but Cloud keeps a big power advantage (and also durability it from what I get). Both seem to go for close combat as well; if Zero's AI is to go by he will go for insta-kills after being pushed or if things drag on (then again it could be just typical boss battle behavior). An scenario in Cloud's advantage seems more likely, is what I mean.
And, dunno if it counts, but Cloud does have armors that prevent Ice damage such as the Ziedrich, Dragon Bangle which halve it or the Aurora Armlet which absorbs it (he recovers health when hit by Ice attacks).
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Cloud 3
Zero 2
Zero 2
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I think Tarta already voted
Anyway, thinking more, this should be closed as a stomp since Cloud is.immune to damn near everything Zero has
Anyway, thinking more, this should be closed as a stomp since Cloud is.immune to damn near everything Zero has
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As outlined above, matter manipulation and absolute zero still work on cloud. So there is that.BruceTheBatman said:
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Hmm. Idk
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What's the actual range for special attacks in FF? If they're really single target only his Cloud's timestop resistance is only good against timestopper which is localized timestop, but not against dark hold or cyber elf timestop that works over a large area of effect instead.
Does cloud have the ability to neg intangibility too?, because zero can become intangible if necessary to avoid damage.
Does cloud have the ability to neg intangibility too?, because zero can become intangible if necessary to avoid damage.
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The page is vague regarding Cloud himself, but it does state is much higher than standard melee range with magic. However, I'd say it's pretty long given that he can do things such as summon small meteors from space with the Comet Spells (unless this is wanking him, of course). Summons do seem to have huge range, though, Bahamut Zero is able to shoot it's Tera Flare to the target from outer space. https://youtu.be/zhmO9NOFHfo?t=22
Slow and Stop protection also seems works against larger scale attacks such as Stigma as seen here https://youtu.be/XL2MPKBL8DE?t=455 or the Supernova itself (which also inflicts Slow on targets). Other Enemy Attacks do seem to have an AOE in inflicting these status, such as the Dance skill. Sorry for the lack of footage, finding the precise monster and its use is pretty hard.
Zero's intangibility is a good possibility for him, but I am confused about a something: his profile lists he can learn Soul Body and that technique creates a clone and also makes Zero invulnerable while he uses the technique.However, he only uses Soul Body during his Boss fight in X5 for a sneak attack on X when already defeated, otherwise, he doesn't learn the technique per se in the games. At least with X in X4 Soul Body makes clone can be damaged and dispelled by hitting it (and it seems X can be hit when using it) or after a brief time passes. The charged version makes the user immune, effectively, but it only can use basic attacks and disappears after a while (you can't seem to be able to switch to other weapons and can't use charge shots). Zero does have his own similar techniques in Sougenmu and Shippu, but Sougenmu makes the clone intangible and hitting Zero will dispel it, while Shippu sends out a clone to attack and disappears. I looked up but I didn't find similar techniques. I guess I am missing something. Do the Cyber Elves have this effect? I looked at the list of them but none seem to make Zero invincible.
Slow and Stop protection also seems works against larger scale attacks such as Stigma as seen here https://youtu.be/XL2MPKBL8DE?t=455 or the Supernova itself (which also inflicts Slow on targets). Other Enemy Attacks do seem to have an AOE in inflicting these status, such as the Dance skill. Sorry for the lack of footage, finding the precise monster and its use is pretty hard.
Zero's intangibility is a good possibility for him, but I am confused about a something: his profile lists he can learn Soul Body and that technique creates a clone and also makes Zero invulnerable while he uses the technique.However, he only uses Soul Body during his Boss fight in X5 for a sneak attack on X when already defeated, otherwise, he doesn't learn the technique per se in the games. At least with X in X4 Soul Body makes clone can be damaged and dispelled by hitting it (and it seems X can be hit when using it) or after a brief time passes. The charged version makes the user immune, effectively, but it only can use basic attacks and disappears after a while (you can't seem to be able to switch to other weapons and can't use charge shots). Zero does have his own similar techniques in Sougenmu and Shippu, but Sougenmu makes the clone intangible and hitting Zero will dispel it, while Shippu sends out a clone to attack and disappears. I looked up but I didn't find similar techniques. I guess I am missing something. Do the Cyber Elves have this effect? I looked at the list of them but none seem to make Zero invincible.
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There is the cyber elf that's a direct reference to sting chameleons charged attack which makes zero turn into a rainbow and become intangible in MMZ.
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Ah, I see. The one called Jackson. I missed because the list described its effect as "Hold down for supremacy" which made it easy to overlook.
EDIT: Found footage of it https://youtu.be/Bn2hXV2kO0g?t=61 a small charge time and grants around 9 seconds of invincibility. I don't remember much about the Zero games (played them back in their day) but does this ability have a limit of uses?
EDIT: Found footage of it https://youtu.be/Bn2hXV2kO0g?t=61 a small charge time and grants around 9 seconds of invincibility. I don't remember much about the Zero games (played them back in their day) but does this ability have a limit of uses?
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Also, supernova only seems to inflict that status in the overseas version of the attack, but the japanese one that's actually used as the basis for clouds AP here doesn't seem to, is it assumed it has the properties of both?
Stigma does seems like an attack that has to connect first to take effect though.
Stigma does seems like an attack that has to connect first to take effect though.
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Yup, you're right, the Supernova inflicts status effects only in the international versions, but not the original japanese one (I don't know if the site uses a composite Supernova or not, sorry). However, I was listing it (along with Stigma) as an example of AOE attacks that can inflict time based status effects. I am a bit confused about your point regarding Stigma having to connect first, I mean it's true, yes.
I looked up info about Jackson, Cyber Elves seem to be usable once and then are lost... Jackson included? Because, a bit off topic: that's a huge waste given how hard it is to unlock him >_>
EDIT: A bit off topic, but found a funny bit regarding Dark Hold. It seems to be more efficient for Zero than for X, given if you change weapons the effect ends, but given Zero doesn't use different weapons as much as special moves without changing them he can take more advantage of the time stop.
I looked up info about Jackson, Cyber Elves seem to be usable once and then are lost... Jackson included? Because, a bit off topic: that's a huge waste given how hard it is to unlock him >_>
EDIT: A bit off topic, but found a funny bit regarding Dark Hold. It seems to be more efficient for Zero than for X, given if you change weapons the effect ends, but given Zero doesn't use different weapons as much as special moves without changing them he can take more advantage of the time stop.
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Well, if it needs to hit to connect the AoE is limited to the area the beam covers, much like timstopper except this one is an energy ball instead.
Dark Hold or Cyber elves like Stoccue ( the cyber elf page lists him as stunning, but the actual use of it the attack in-game freezes every opponent and you can hear a clock ticking, which means its effect is an actual timefreeze instead) can freeeze the whole area, which means cloud may still be somewhat affected by it.
Jacksons dies after being used, but it gives you the ability forever but obviously needs to be turned on command.
Dark Hold or Cyber elves like Stoccue ( the cyber elf page lists him as stunning, but the actual use of it the attack in-game freezes every opponent and you can hear a clock ticking, which means its effect is an actual timefreeze instead) can freeeze the whole area, which means cloud may still be somewhat affected by it.
Jacksons dies after being used, but it gives you the ability forever but obviously needs to be turned on command.
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Zero FRA 
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Bump
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Zero FRA
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Cloud 3
Zero 5
Zero 5
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I think I'm gonna stick with Zero just barely, if my vote hasn't been counted yet.
This is really hard for me still tho
This is really hard for me still tho
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