Few questions about Muhdoka

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Literally every concept transcendent reality depending on scale, since concept is like the most fundamental aspect of some verses.

What Madoka did wasn't destroying and recreating the Multiverse through AP, she took the "blueprint" which has anything including concept of witches and destroyed said concept, the Multiverse destruction and creation are merely side effect.

Type 2 concept is that if you affects some concept and the reality as whole changes in process. Type 3 is that if you affects some concept but the reality didn't change at all.

Magia Record blatantly showed when Touka attempted to gain some portion of Madoka's Law and it nearly ended with the Magia Record Universe getting destroyed and recreated into a new one, since the point of Madoka's Law is "No Witches" and Magia Record Universe still has the concept.of Witches in it.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Reality is affected if you do the same to a type 3 concept, though. I think you got them mixed a bit

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Reality is affected if you do the same to a type 3 concept, though. I think you got them mixed

Ummm, not really.

The likes of Mard Geer and Ichibei has type 3 concept manip and the reality doesn't change when they uses it. (Example: Ichibei took away Yhwach's name and the reality doesn't change one bit, only Yhwach's name that disappeared. The reality doesn't change evem when Ichibei gave Yhwach a new name).

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

They govern all of reality and are bound by it,so changing them would also affect reality itself, and changing them also affects the object they represent

"3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself."

The difference with Type 2 is that the latter wont be affected if the object they represent is gone

 

[Eganergo]

"These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept."

From the ongoing conceptual manipulation, it seems like this line will be added to type 2 as well.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

It was technically always like that anyway

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

They govern all of reality and are bound by it,so changing them would also affect reality itself, and changing them also changes the object they represent

"3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself."

The difference with Type 2 is that the latter wont be affected if the object they represent is gone

What I mean by the "reality getting affected as well" is that the worlds/universe/multiverse as whole are also getting affected, not just one object/person. If Madoka concept manip is type 3, only Witches that will disappear, the Multiverse itself wouldn't be destroyed at all.

But when Madoka destroyed the Concept of Witches, the Multiverse itself is getting destroyed and a new one with the new set of Law was born. That is type 2 as far as I know.

 

[Delta333]

ehh sinbad gains type 2 because rukhs links to litterally all things in reality,madoka concept manip is no different since the multiverse links to concept of witches got erased when madoka destroyed that concept

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pretty sure that anyone here has ideas confused on how the types work.

Type 3 embody parts of reality and are under its systems as law, causality, physics etc.

Type 2 instead not only embodies parts of reality but also extends beyond that, and thus, it's not under these systems.

Madoka is stated to be the absolute ruler of things as laws and is implied to be beyond the system of laws since she's on par with the Law of Circles, which is beyond the reality since it nukes the concept of Witches from the "main multiverse" and puts them in the non existent one, a thing that is Type 2 since is not bound from the laws of both multiverses since it is the one which dictates these systems instead, and thus, "transcending the reality".

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tho I think that her Type 2 CM Justification needs to be worded like this:

Madoka: (Type 2, Creation and Destruction. Can create concepts as the Law of Circles which are totally beyond the law and causality systems of both the Real and Nonexistent Multiverse and can erase said concepts as shown with the concept of witches, which was heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc)

Homura should have the "Concept Alteration" reworded to: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Same as Ultimate Madoka)

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I mean, if everyone is even bother to read her entire profile, you can clearly see how her Concept manip works on the "Notable Attack" section.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, if everyone is even bother to read her entire profile, you can clearly see how her Concept manip works on the "Notable Attack" section.

Nobody cares about notable Abilities section

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here in summary?

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

The OP questioned few things about Madoka abilities and has been answered above, so nothing should be done I guess.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What are the conclusions here in summary?

I'd say to change the Concept Manip justification to make them clearer, like this:

Tho I think that her Type 2 CM Justification needs to be worded like this:

Madoka: (Type 2, Creation and Destruction. Can create concepts as the Law of Circles which are totally beyond the law and causality systems of both the Real and Nonexistent Multiverse and can erase said concepts as shown with the concept of witches, which was heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc)

Homura should have the "Concept Alteration" reworded to: Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Same as Ultimate Madoka)

^

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

But said Justifications are already in her notable attack section.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you need to make a decision first.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But said Justifications are already in her notable attack section.

They need to be in power section too, since, imo, it's more a direct way to tell how a power works

 

[Jinsye]

This wouldn't be an issue if people read the Notable Attacks & Techniques section

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

This wouldn't be an issue if people read the Notable Attacks & Techniques section

My sentiment exactly

 

[OriginFox]

I read the notable section and it's too vague as to how erasing witches and creating the concept of wraith on a multiversal+ scale is type 2. The page justification should be changed to be more clear.

 

[First_Witch]

The issue here seems that people are pointlessly hung up on what trancendend means. It dosn't mean that the concept has to be 4D compared to its 3D reality, it just means that it is unbound by said reality. Type 2 Concepts exist regardless of wether the objects they represent exist or not, while Typ 3 concepts exist because their objects exist. A typ 3 Sword concept exist because humans forged a sword for the first time and decided to call it a sword, while a type 2 sword concept has always existed independently, the first sword ever made came to be because humans happend to access the already existing idea of it.

Madoka erasing the concept of witches throughout the multiverse in past, present and future is blatanly type 2, because the erasur of that concept at a singular point of time (The moment she did it), affected the multiverse throughout time. Something that a type 3 concept can't do. You cant erase a type 3 concept before it was born, thats like paradoxing a human before the human race existed.

Like damn, people where so gung ho about Plato (Back when people used him to justify 1A everything through a single mention of his name) and now people seem to barely remember his basic concept theory

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Hey Witch, I thought you're leaving the wiki.

It's nice to see you again.

 

[First_Witch]

Yahallo, am gone.

I just use my spare time on weekends to lurk the wiki, i didn't leave it because i wanted to lol.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Glad to hear that. Come visit whenever you can.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, glad to hear such, What about this new justification for Godoka's CM, to cover the vagueness on her profile?

Type 2, Creation and Destruction. Can create concepts as the Law of Circles which are totally beyond the law and causality systems of both the Real and Nonexistent Multiverse; able to erase concepts from all the possible points of the space-time as shown with the concept of witches, which was heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc

 

[Antvasima]

Welcome back First_Witch.

Also, I will unsubscribe to this thread. You can send me a message after you have reached a consensus conclusion.

 

[Delta333]

agree with first witch,I've never seen any characters use type 3 concept manip to affect concept through past,present,future and before it was born

 

[First_Witch]

agree with first witch,I've never seen any characters use type 3 concept manip to affect concept through past,present,future and before it was born

You have never seen it because it can't happen. It goes against the very definition of type 3. You can't erase something before it exists.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, glad to hear such, What about this new justification for Godoka's CM, to cover the vagueness on her profile?

Type 2, Creation and Destruction. Can create concepts as the Law of Circles which are totally beyond the law and causality systems of both the Real and Nonexistent Multiverse; able to erase concepts from all the possible points of the space-time as shown with the concept of witches, which was heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc

successfully ignored

 

[Regidian]

successfully ignored

Lol

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

successfully ignored

 

[Delta333]

Type 2, Creation and Destruction.Madoka can erase the concept of witches throughout past,present and future,even before it was born.Heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc
How about this shorter and simpler explanation?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Type 2, Creation and Destruction.Madoka can erase the concept of witches throughout past,present and future,even before it was born.Heavily implied in the original series but outright confirmed in the Wraith Arc
How about this shorter and simpler explanation?

The part of Law of Circles is necessary to make her Type 2 rating even more solid

 

[SomebodyData]

It just sounds like y'all didn't read the profile and are trying to make it sound vague as an excuse lol, especially since everything brought up already is on the profile.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It just sounds like y'all didn't read the profile and are trying to make it sound vague as an excuse lol, especially since everything brought up already is on the profile.

Why not making it more precise to prevent episodes like this from happening?

 

[SomebodyData]

You can't really force people to read the profile. Not to mention, the profile already explains that three times, it's a bit absurd to have it for a fourth time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can't really force people to read the profile. Not to mention, the profile already explains that three times it's a bit absurd to have it for a fourth time.

Just explaining how it is Type 2 in the Concept Manip justification should be enough tho. That's why I suggested such.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You can't really force people to read the profile. Not to mention, the profile already explains that three times, it's a bit absurd to have it for a fourth time.

Or better, what about adding another note alongside the existing ones to make it more specific then?

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Or better, what about adding another note alongside the existing ones to make it more specific then?

I got a better suggestion for you.

Read. The. Whole. Damn. Profile