• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Fallout Unfucking-Up Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
That sounds more like Statistics Amplification for speed specifically

No, that's far too simple:



^ The killing starts at 3:00.

V.A.T.S. works in three distinct stages:

1. It straightforwardly stops everything in motion, and highlights all available targets. This includes enemies you have no line of sight to, such as behind walls, or invisible enemies you can't see otherwise, and thrown objects (like grenades) in flight.

2. Once a target is selected, it displays a percentage chance of successfully shooting any particular enemy or body part. Targets can be deselected or re-selected as the user's discretion.

3. After that, when you choose to execute an attack (or series of attacks) it causes inhuman accuracy and precision in a short burst, attempting to hit all selected targets.

Add to this the fact that it's canonically a computer system, and you can see the problem with chalking it up to Speed Statistics Amplification. It also has no effect on movement speed at all.
 
It affects perception speed, that's what the VATS system amplifies. All the other abilities are just other abilities. Like seeing through walls: Enhanced Senses
Inhuman Precision and accuracy, that's also another stay amp though it would probably just be classified under skill.

The percentage bit isn't really a power or anything like that, it's just chance of success.

None of this points to time being manipulated at all
 
V.A.T.S doesn't just amp perception, it also seems to amp speed as well because of the player characters excluding the first two for obvious reasons being able to fire ridiculously fast shots while their perception of time is slowed down.
 
Notably, the Securitrons don't even try to use the 9mm submachine gun against the Paladins, and the Paladins survive direct, repeated rocket and grenade fire, as well as sustained automatic laser fire in every battle.
You're using a random gameplay encounter to try and scale BoS soldiers to the full output of the Securitrons, which makes no sense. However I will say that if you don't upgrade the robots in Yes-Man's ending they'll be able to hold onto Helios, meaning the base securitrons aren't enough to deal with a weakened chapter.


Power Armor tanking a rocket engine at point-blank in a scripted event, and Proctor Ingram surviving both a near-miss from a mini-nuke and her subsequent hundred foot fall with only a spinal injury. If
Not only did the mini-nuke completely miss her and hit a rock she was standing on, a mere 100 foot drop crippled her. T-60 suits can't jump from Trinity tower without being destroyed, Danse's squad of power armor knights were killed by explosives, mines, and raider gunfire; and the Legion is cala le of killing the Brotherhood all indicates the armor is not as consistently good as you're suggesting.

I'm okay with it being 9-A. But it's not utterly beyond convential weaponry. There's to many consistent low showings for that to be true.
 
You're using a random gameplay encounter to try and scale BoS soldiers to the full output of the Securitrons, which makes no sense. However I will say that if you don't upgrade the robots in Yes-Man's ending they'll be able to hold onto Helios, meaning the base securitrons aren't enough to deal with a weakened chapter.

1. There is nothing random about what you see up there: those fights were arranged using developer tools: the stats of the units were not changed.
2. The Securitrons never attack Helios whether you upgrade them or not. The Brotherhood holding onto Helios is entirely unrelated to the Securitrons.
3. I've already been through this with you, in many previous comments where you were trying to downgrade Power Armor to 9-A despite feats far beyond that:


I proved that to be impossible. Now you're just gunning for as low as you can possibly get.

Not only did the mini-nuke completely miss her and hit a rock she was standing on, a mere 100 foot drop crippled her. T-60 suits can't jump from Trinity tower without being destroyed, Danse's squad of power armor knights were killed by explosives, mines, and raider gunfire; and the Legion is cala le of killing the Brotherhood all indicates the armor is not as consistently good as you're suggesting.

I've already directly countered this point, and broke it down across multiple following comments. I'm not arguing the same points with you again. TL;DR: surviving a nuke at that close range is still a high feat, Danse himself survived a rocked engine to the face explicitly due to his Power Armor in a cutscene while tanking constant laserfire in the same scene, and Improvised Explosive Devices in the Fallout universe include fusion explosives made from Microfusion Cells - miniaturized nuclear fusion reactors.


As I said before, these weapons are known for flash vaporizing armored foes en masse when they explode. Typical energy weapon ammo is shown in scripted scenes to disintegrates people into ash piles in a single shot, and in gameplay happens to things as large as bears. Surviving dozens of such shots implies durability sufficient to survive dozens of such shots.

I'm okay with it being 9-A. But it's not utterly beyond convential weaponry. There's to many consistent low showings for that to be true.

I seem to recall asking: "What even is "standard" (conventional) in a world where basic ammo disintegrates a bear to a pile of ashes?" You never answered that question. You can buy ammo like this from a shop in Freeside. A slum.
 
For clarification:



^ That is Paladin Danse surviving a barrage of laser fire from synths, followed by a rocket engine blast, in a scripted event. Danse survives, the synths do not, and are reduced to ashes. This is directly comparable to my the gameplay examples I used in my first post:



^ Survives a minigun barrage at point-blank while humans hit with the same weapon disintegrate into flayed body parts.



^ Survives a point-blank rocket impact while the adjacent Radscorpions are blown to pieces.

And it is consistent with what we see in the video with the Securitrons:



Any conventionally armored human wouldn't realistically survive standing between these combatants. Between the shrapnel, missile explosions, and flesh-disintegrating lasers, they'd just get blown to fragments or be reduced to cinders in an instant.
 
1. There is nothing random about what you see up there: those fights were arranged using developer tools: the stats of the units were not changed.
But they're in-game stats that cannot be replicated in-game without use of those tools. Its also completely reliant on gameplay mechanics and has no lore backing for how it goes, other than unupgraded Securitrons being unable to dislodge the BoS from Helios.
2. The Securitrons never attack Helios whether you upgrade them or not. The Brotherhood holding onto Helios is entirely unrelated to the Securitrons.
One of the triggers for a BoS-Helios ending in the Independent route requires them not to be upgraded, which is where my statement comes from.
I've already directly countered this point
You countered none of them. You forgot to take into account inverse square law with the mini-nuke which rapidly decreases the 8-C explosive rating to 9-B within a few yards, being killed by lasers capable of cutting through a few feet of steel is not a 9-A feat, and everything else is contradicted by Power Armor being consistently overwhelmed by conventional weapons in-universe
As I said before, these weapons are known for flash vaporizing armored foes en masse when they explode.
None of those matter, because none of those weapons are what killed BoS soldiers in my examples. Raiders with assaults' rifles and explosives killed an Enclave patrol in a scripted Fallout 3 event, the NCR which generally does not use energy weapons has repeatable defeated the BoS, the Legion has defeated Brotherhood factions out east and in an ending can dislodge and destroy the Mojave BoS chapter, and the Raiders that killed Danse's squad used standard mines and kinetic weapons.
Most weapons under most factions uses bullets. Even if you assume Fallout bullets are stronger than IRL ones that still limits the armor heavily.
Typical energy weapon ammo is shown in scripted scenes to disintegrates people into ash piles in a single shot, and in gameplay happens to things as large as bears. Surviving dozens of such shots implies durability sufficient to survive dozens of such shots.
And that durability is inconsistent in-universe. With different means of attack crippling armor or outright killing the user. Stepping on a mine can kill a person in T-60 armor. PA cannot be universally strong, or they wouldn't run into these issues. They're either better with dealing energy attacks or they're inconsistent. Either option means I'm against some blanket scaling upgrade on them.
 
But they're in-game stats that cannot be replicated in-game without use of those tools.

No, actually, that's how powerful they are in the base game. All the developer tools did was put them next to each other so they can fight: Securitrons never wander near Hidden Valley in game, though House mentions one of his Securitrons being destroyed by a Paladin there. Point being, the Brotherhood fights equally against Mark II Securitrons, despite barrages of lasers, grenades, and missiles. Not mere rifle bullets.

Its also completely reliant on gameplay mechanics and has no lore backing for how it goes, other than unupgraded Securitrons being unable to dislodge the BoS from Helios. (...) One of the triggers for a BoS-Helios ending in the Independent route requires them not to be upgraded, which is where my statement comes from.

You got that from the wiki, not the game itself. The Brotherhood endings are in fact not affected by the presence of the upgraded Securitron Army: only the relative power of the NCR and the Brotherhood at the end of the game as a result of player actions. I've seen the Brotherhood take Helios after I upgrade the Securitron Army. And the Securitron Army doesn't patrol Helios.

You countered none of them. You forgot to take into account inverse square law with the mini-nuke which rapidly decreases the 8-C explosive rating to 9-B within a few yards, being killed by lasers capable of cutting through a few feet of steel is not a 9-A feat, and everything else is contradicted by Power Armor being consistently overwhelmed by conventional weapons in-universe

1. A nuke is not 8-C. I've already countered this point, calling YOU out when you tried to use game mechanics to limit the mini-nuke's firepower despite it being directly comparable to a Davy Crockett in lore.
2. A laser that can cut through several feet of steel can definitely cut through a small building made of lesser material. The other feats provided are more than enough to obliterate a small building into fragments. It's established that the transparent eye lenses of Power Armor are bulletproof against 10mm auto - let alone the rest of the suit.
3. Power Armor was only ever canonically "overwhelmed by conventional weapons" when the NCR outnumbered the Brotherhood 20-to-1 at an indefensible location, and even then NCR couldn't finish the job.
4. You are refusing to acknowledge the existence of microfusion cell ammo and the damage it canonically does compared to conventional weapons, and the fact that they are used in IEDs.

None of those matter, because none of those weapons are what killed BoS soldiers in my examples. Raiders with assaults' rifles and explosives killed an Enclave patrol in a scripted Fallout 3 event, the NCR which generally does not use energy weapons has repeatable defeated the BoS, the Legion has defeated Brotherhood factions out east and in an ending can dislodge and destroy the Mojave BoS chapter, and the Raiders that killed Danse's squad used standard mines and kinetic weapons. (...) Most weapons under most factions uses bullets. Even if you assume Fallout bullets are stronger than IRL ones that still limits the armor heavily.

What examples? I see 4 videos that I posted supporting my position, and zero that you posted supporting yours. Danse himself survived that rocket due to his Power Armor, explicitly: don't tell me that he only survived because he's a Synth when he dies in one shot without his armor:



^ At 22:28 in this video, one shot to the unarmored head with an ordinary gun, and he dies.

SO - if his squad was also wearing that same type of Power Armor, the raiders must have used firepower capable of breaching that armor where that rocket failed to do so - there's precedent for this in the fact that we see Raiders in Fallout 4 using both salvaged Power Armor and Plasma weapons. And then there's NCR's victory at Helios One, one of your favorite "anti-feats":

"Singlehandedly destroying a Brotherhood of Steel bunker is quite an accomplishment. Platoons of NCR troops have died, trying to do the same." - Robert House, when the player destroys Hidden Valley
Elijah was a strange one. His even becoming Elder was highly questionable, seeing as how he was a Scribe. Typically, only Paladins are eligible. But an exception was made in his case, on account of him being a genius. Unfortunately, whatever scientific acumen he had didn't extend to tactics. Trying to defend HELIOS was a blunder of the worst kind, and many brothers lost their lives because of it. HELIOS was the worst goddamned action I've seen in a long, long career of fighting. - Paladin Hardin
I'm sure someone's told you all this before. Several years back, we were running our chapter out the HELIOS One solar power station. Our Elder at the time, Elijah, had some kind of obsession with the place. Which is the only reason we stayed as long as we did. That place was hardly defensible, and we knew the NCR was moving in on us, but the Elder refused to budge, insisting that he just needed "more time". We never found out what he needed the time for. Wave upon wave of NCR troopers hit us from all directions. We held out for a time, but we were grossly outnumbered, and they had more men than we had ammo. Eventually our positions collapsed. Elder Elijah was nowhere to be found, so McNamara took charge and led what remained of us on a counter-offensive west. - Paladin Ramos

All referencing the same battle, all involving the same chapter:

"(Elijah) was our Elder when we came East. A wizard with technology, really. His mind just worked that way naturally. Learned a lot from him. But he started having disagreements with the other Elders. The Brotherhood's interest is in old technology. He wanted to explore developing new tech. And there were other ways he wanted to push. Other weapons. Ones with ethics questions attached. Rather than deal with him, they sent him East. (...) They sent him to look into the Dam. There was a time when I'd have begged to follow. Watch him at work. (...) On our way East he demanded we stop at HELIOS One to examine it. While we were there, we received word that the NCR had taken the Dam." - Veronica

It's no exaggeration to say the Brotherhood has no reason to care about a hydroelectric dam: not when their armor is producing 70 kilowatts for a hundred years and their guns are using miniature fusion reactors. In-game dialogue (and common sense) supports this:

The Courier: The Brotherhood of Steel knew about ARCHIMEDES?
Ignacio Rivas: They weren't here (At Helios One) for me to ask, but I doubt they were here for electricity.

Recap: a small, expeditionary chapter of the Brotherhood that was sent away for the sole purpose of getting rid of Elijah - a problematic Elder who was a tactical idiot - by putting him on a useless mission, which he failed by getting distracted. Then, while stuck in an exposed and indefensible position due to Elder Elijah's obsessions, this chapter was attacked by multiple platoons of NCR troops, swarming them from all sides, outnumbering the Brotherhood 20-to-1... and the NCR failed to destroy them, or even truly rout them. Instead, the NCR didn't have an answer when this poorly-led chapter just upped and smashed through the NCR lines instead of sitting around waiting to die, managing to escape to Hidden Valley after basically running out of ammo. A chapter sent out for battle, with better leadership, would have easily handled this situation.

Your version would result in this chapter being wiped out in minutes by standard gunfire. After all, they were being fired at by 20 guns per man.

And that durability is inconsistent in-universe. With different means of attack crippling armor or outright killing the user. Stepping on a mine can kill a person in T-60 armor. PA cannot be universally strong, or they wouldn't run into these issues. They're either better with dealing energy attacks or they're inconsistent. Either option means I'm against some blanket scaling upgrade on them.

Really? Because Proctor Ingram survived a near miss from a nuke in T-60 Power Armor with just a spinal injury, Danse survived a rocket engine to the face, and lasers that turn whole people directly to ash bounce clean off their armor in cutscenes, leaving nary a scratch. All of that is lore, and it's not all there is pointing to Power Armor being tougher than conventional weapons.

To be frank, I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking. You're just using the same low end outliers and deliberate misrepresentations over and over.
 
No, actually, that's how powerful they are in the base game.
That's still purely based on gameplay mechanics.
Securitrons never wander near Hidden Valley in game, though House mentions one of his Securitrons being destroyed by a Paladin there. Point being, the Brotherhood fights equally against Mark II Securitrons, despite barrages of lasers, grenades, and missiles. Not mere rifle bullets.
According to House even after being upgraded his Mark II's would lose to the NCR, it would just cost them a lot of people:
Courier: Wasn't the NCR's army big enough to defeat your Securitrons and the Three Families?

House: Indeed it was - and still is. But not without taking significant casualties. Would Kimball and Oliver have traded the lives of hundreds of soldiers for absolute control of Hoover Dam? Oh yes. They weren't afraid of me, they were afraid of Caesar - that attacking me would leave them vulnerable to a Legion offensive. And so they negotiated. Not out of the kindness of their hearts, as they try to make it seem. Because the calculus of power left no other choice.
Also an important thing to note here: The NCR is capable of defeating House's entire army of Mark Is while losing less than a thousand people. Mark IIs would be stronger but not enough to wipe them out.
1. A nuke is not 8-C. I've already countered this point, calling YOU out when you tried to use game mechanics to limit the mini-nuke's firepower despite it being directly comparable to a Davy Crockett in lore.
It is 8-C since you've never once provided evidence showing its better. In fact 8-C in of itself is questionable. The page you linked never compares them to the Crockett as well and the effects are far worse than what the Crockett could do IRL.
2. A laser that can cut through several feet of steel can definitely cut through a small building made of lesser material.
Yes, but that doesn't make it 9-A. The armor piercing round of a M1 Abrams tank is only 9-B+ and it can also punch through multiple feet of steel while over 500 meters away. They also died to this, so they're not scaling to its output
3. Power Armor was only ever canonically "overwhelmed by conventional weapons" when the NCR outnumbered the Brotherhood 20-to-1 at an indefensible location, and even then NCR couldn't finish the job.
They've been overwhelmed by
  • The NCR with 15-1 number advantages at Helois
  • The NCR at six different bunker locations
  • The Legion out East
  • Raiders in Boston and in DC
None of the above consistently uses high end weapons. Also this is important here, baseline 9-A is 20,920,000 joules. The .50 BMG hits with at least 18,000 joules and the ammo used for the NCR service rifle usually carries a force of 1,800 joules. That's a gap of to 11,622x to 1,162x. If they had universal 9-A durability that would mean they could not be damaged by the NCR and Legion weapons, in the same fashion that dozens of people with M-16s are going to damage Cold War era tanks or modern MBTs. Its obvious that they are not that tough consistently, or that wouldn't happen.
4. You are refusing to acknowledge the existence of microfusion cell ammo and the damage it canonically does compared to conventional weapons, and the fact that they are used in IEDs.
They exist, but the thing is none of the showing I mentioned used mico-fusion cells. Danse's crew was killed by frag mines and rifle rounds, the Enclave lost to raiders without energy weapons, and the Legion doesn't use microfusion cells.
10mm auto - let alone the rest of the suit.
10mm auto has an energy of 900~ joules on average. Less than half the energy of most intermediate and rifle caliber ammunition.
SO - if his squad was also wearing that same type of Power Armor, the raiders must have used firepower capable of breaching that armor where that rocket failed to do so
Or, the armor is not universally strong. Frag mines are not capable of replicating what the rocket did, but can disable and kill soldiers in power armor. Same with enough bullets and other explosives. You're assuming that because it resists one thing, it must have an equally good resistance to everything then are trying to upscale the universe based on that. When there's multiple counter examples for it.
All referencing the same battle, all involving the same chapter:
All you've done it just back my previous points and my point earlier in this comment. Paladins died, got overwhelmed, and could not handle the numbers. If their armor was 11,000 times more protective than their average weapons there's no way they could have lost that fight.
Your version would result in this chapter being wiped out in minutes by standard gunfire. After all, they were being fired at by 20 guns per man.
My version is the canon version. The BoS cannot deal with the NCR numbers and their weapons will eventually breach their armor. Something not possible if the armor has the capacity to tank kinetic damage rated over 11,000x times higher than the NCR's most common weapon
Really? Because Proctor Ingram survived a near miss from a nuke in T-60 Power Armor with just a spinal injury, Danse survived a rocket engine to the face, and lasers that turn whole people directly to ash bounce clean off their armor in cutscenes, leaving nary a scratch. All of that is lore, and it's not all there is pointing to Power Armor being tougher than conventional weapons.
Yes. Because bullets and explosives of far weaker levels than what you're suggesting have taken out entire squads and leaving them to destroy their suits or commit suicide
To be frank, I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking. You're just using the same low end outliers and deliberate misrepresentations over and over.
I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking and dismissel of canon events because they don't match your idea of what Power Armor can do.
 
Actually this thread's topic if for P&A additions to the Courier that was never applied for some reason. Since no one disagreed with them I'll just add it to the profile now.
 
That's still purely based on gameplay mechanics.

Sure kid sure: ignore all the lore I've given you - Paladin Danse surviving the rocket, Proctor Ingram surviving a near nuke and the following hundred-foot fall, that paladin tanking lore-proven man-vaporizing lasers to the chest at point-blank without a scratch: those were all lore, and scripted cutscenes... but it's just gameplay mechanics. (◔_◔)

According to House even after being upgraded his Mark II's would lose to the NCR, it would just cost them a lot of people: (...) Also an important thing to note here: The NCR is capable of defeating House's entire army of Mark Is while losing less than a thousand people. Mark IIs would be stronger but not enough to wipe them out.



^ See 1:15 in this video. Obviously, House was referring to his existing Securitrons at the Strip, not the entire Securitron army at Fortification Hill, which can literally chase NCR out of Vegas if you can't negotiate with General Oliver. You can also choose to "erase all trace of NCR from the area", which this video shows happening. Even NCR's Veteran Rangers don't stand a chance: you can see them start firing on the Securitrons... which casually tank their rifle fire for a little bit before casually disintegrating all of the Rangers to little ash piles, including their metal and ceramic Riot Gear. That's not game mechanics, by the way: they are scripted to disintegrate that way in that moment.

It is 8-C since you've never once provided evidence showing its better. In fact 8-C in of itself is questionable. The page you linked never compares them to the Crockett as well and the effects are far worse than what the Crockett could do IRL.

Yes I did, twice, because you are actually relying on game mechanics here. Your first denial came when I pointed out it's similarity to the Davy Crockett:



You decided to claim the warhead wasn't that powerful in lore because unlike the Davy Crockett - which weighs 50 pounds - the Fat Man only weighs two pounds, and that it only has a ~40 ton yield. Despite the fact that the Fat Man's extreme weight and firepower is directly mentioned in lore:


That lore - two soldiers totally vaporized by accident, struggles with the warhead being too heavy to launch far enough to be safe, the mere fact that it's a nuke - puts the Mini Nuke well above 8-C no matter how much you deny it. The Fat Man only weighs so little in gameplay because the player could hardly carry them otherwise, and the small blast radius is due to gameplay consideration and the known processing limitations of the Creation Engine. Considering your stubbornness, I'll have to keep rebutting this same nonsensical argument over and over, the same way, until this thread closes. Now, go on: assert that Mini Nukes are 8-C because of the size the explosion has in game mechanics, or it's in-game weight. Again. I will give you the same rebuttal. Again.

(...) None of the above consistently uses high end weapons. Also this is important here, baseline 9-A is 20,920,000 joules. The .50 BMG hits with at least 18,000 joules and the ammo used for the NCR service rifle usually carries a force of 1,800 joules. That's a gap of to 11,622x to 1,162x. If they had universal 9-A durability that would mean they could not be damaged by the NCR and Legion weapons, in the same fashion that dozens of people with M-16s are going to damage Cold War era tanks or modern MBTs. Its obvious that they are not that tough consistently, or that wouldn't happen. (...)

Okay, numbers then. The NCR service rifle usually carries a force of 1,800 joules.



It takes 2,990,000,000 joules to vaporize the water in an average-sized adult human body and leave behind a pile of ashes like this laser rifle does.



Look at that. Took the same model of laser rifle like a champ at point blank, multiple times. Wonder what a Service Rifle could do.



Look at THAT. Know how much energy it takes to put a space shuttle into orbit? 3,120,500,000 KILOjoules. Tanking any fraction of that is a feat well beyond tanking a Service Rifle, and he did that after tanking an unceasing barrage of lasers 2.99 gigajoule lasers. So, Power Armor tanks laser barrages, rocket barrages, minigun barrages, orbital rocket engine thrust, Mini Nukes (on a near-miss)... yet you expect Service Rifles to consistently defeat Power Armor. The outer composite coating of the T-51b - not the armor itself, which is titanium - can resist 2,500 joules of kinetic energy by itself, so your 1,800 joule Service Rifle couldn't even hope to scuff the paint. The beauty of this? None of this is game mechanics: all of it is scripted events, so the Brotherhood scales to them.

By the way, there's nothing indicating that the Legion ever defeated the Brotherhood in battle, for obvious reasons. I know what you're going to say: "Caesar says his Legion captured Brotherhood scribes in the east". That doesn't imply any military defeat:

Veronica_Santangelo.jpg


^ Veronica Santangelo is a Brotherhood Scribe: a "Procurement Specialist". She carries a 10mm pistol and a Power Fist, wears no armor at all, and works alone. Easy to capture and kill. There are others like her around the wastes, procuring supplies for the Brotherhood under assumed identities.

FO01_NPC_Rhombus_N.png


^ That's Rhombus, Head of the Paladins, who are the defense of the Brotherhood of Steel. I'd imagine Rhombus would be harder to kill... or capture. Let alone a hundred of him, presumably supported by robots, in an armored bunker.

LegionCenturionArmor.png


^ And I seriously doubt that a legionary, the best of whom wear this cobbled together hodgepodge armor and wield submachine guns, would stand a chance against a laser rifle. In fact, a random legionary just outside Nipton was reduced to ash by some scavenger who had a laser rifle. The Legion didn't even take it due to Caesar's silly Warrior-Luddite philosophy.

They exist, but the thing is none of the showing I mentioned used mico-fusion cells. Danse's crew was killed by frag mines and rifle rounds, the Enclave lost to raiders without energy weapons, and the Legion doesn't use microfusion cells. (...) Or, the armor is not universally strong. Frag mines are not capable of replicating what the rocket did, but can disable and kill soldiers in power armor. Same with enough bullets and other explosives. You're assuming that because it resists one thing, it must have an equally good resistance to everything then are trying to upscale the universe based on that. When there's multiple counter examples for it.

So... Danse's Power Armor survived a rocket engine in a scripted event, and you are asserting that multiple equivalent armors to Danse's were killed by "rifles and frag mines" despite that scripted feat, and all the others mentioned above, which aren't even close to every feat supporting tough Power Armor. In that case, the burden is on you to prove that Danse's T-60 is significantly different from other T-60 suits. You can't: there's nothing in the game saying it's any different than any other T-60, in gameplay or otherwise.

My version is the canon version. (...)

No it is not. My breakdown of the Battle of Helios One, which you just ignored and rejected despite every point I made being directly supported by multiple in-game statements, is the canon version. The Mojave Brotherhood survived the NCR's attack despite the extreme numerical disadvantage, in exactly the way the characters in the game described it.

Yes. Because bullets and explosives of far weaker levels than what you're suggesting have taken out entire squads and leaving them to destroy their suits or commit suicide

Is this a joke? That gigantic crater they are in doesn't look like it was done with any rifle bullets. The fact that the armor is largely structurally intact after whatever caused that impact actually precludes Service Rifles from damaging them - a Howitzer is slightly more appropriate. Even if you had evidence this was done with rifles, it's a mere outlier compared to everything else here.

I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking and dismissel of canon events because they don't match your idea of what Power Armor can do.

It's not cherrypicking when you have an overwhelming amount of canon cutscenes and scripted events on your side, like I clearly do. Even if I gathered every Power Armor feat in the franchise, you'd ignore them all and re-post "Danse's squad got killed by rifle bullets".
 
Sure kid sure: ignore all the lore I've given you - Paladin Danse surviving the rocket, Proctor Ingram surviving a near nuke and the following hundred-foot fall, that paladin tanking lore-proven man-vaporizing lasers to the chest at point-blank without a scratch: those were all lore, and scripted cutscenes... but it's just gameplay mechanics. (◔_◔)
Ignore all the lore I given you, and ignore the Legion, the Raiders, the NCR consistently winning, and high fall disabling suits.
Obviously, House was referring to his existing Securitrons at the Strip
His dialogue line appears after you have upgraded the Securitrons. They leave for reasons House also mentions, that its not worth the causalities they'd get in defeating his army.
That lore - two soldiers totally vaporized by accident, struggles with the warhead being too heavy to launch far enough to be safe, the mere fact that it's a nuke - puts the Mini Nuke well above 8-C no matter how much you deny it.
They're using a mechanical catapult to launch the warhead, not a recoilless heavy rifle with a range of multiple miles. The range they launch it at isn't enough to compare it to the Crockett.
the same way, until this thread closes
Well actually the thread is done. If you're feeling like upgrading the universe to be universally 9-A or upgrading the fatman you're allowed to make a new CRT.
yet you expect Service Rifles to consistently defeat Power Armor.
Yes, because they've literally done that lore wise. I do not know how you keep missing this point.
^ And I seriously doubt that a legionary, the best of whom wear this cobbled together hodgepodge armor and wield submachine guns, would stand a chance against a laser rifle. In fact, a random legionary just outside Nipton was reduced to ash by some scavenger who had a laser rifle. The Legion didn't even take it due to Caesar's silly Warrior-Luddite philosophy.
The Legion Centurion you just posted has the helmet of a Super Mutant and the pauldron of T-45d armor. Both earned from killing something in combat. So yeah, they've killed armored BoS soldiers in the East, Caesar mentions being able to destroy the Mojave chapter at the cost of a lot of soldiers, and there's left over endings where they do just that. PA can be overwhelmed with enough people with enough guns, they are not utterly immune to bullets or the Brotherhood/Enclave would never lose an engagement against a force without energy weapons or a ton of heavy weapons, when they've lost to both for those reasons.
So... Danse's Power Armor survived a rocket engine in a scripted event, and you are asserting that multiple equivalent armors to Danse's were killed by "rifles and frag mines" despite that scripted feat, and all the others mentioned above, which aren't even close to every feat supporting tough Power Armor. In that case, the burden is on you to prove that Danse's T-60 is significantly different from other T-60 suits. You can't: there's nothing in the game saying it's any different than any other T-60, in gameplay or otherwise.
For some reason you're under the assumption that the rocket feat means the multiple lower showings are invalid, when that's not true. You have to take a collective look at them, and lore wise Danse being 8-A durability wise makes no sense as that means the Brotherhood would be utterly immune to explosives and standard kinetic weaponry, when both of those things are obviously not true. Their armor is specially designed to handle lasers and heat so he's good at handling lasers and heat.
The Mojave Brotherhood survived the NCR's attack despite the extreme numerical disadvantage, in exactly the way the characters in the game described it.
They lost over half their chapter and are frightened at moving out and losing even more people. I'm not saying they were stomped, but they lost people and its obvious they aren't immune to NCR weaponry since they could just beat everyone to death with melee weapons if that was true.
That gigantic crater they are in doesn't look like it was done with any rifle bullets. The fact that the armor is largely structurally intact after whatever caused that impact actually precludes Service Rifles from damaging them - a Howitzer is slightly more appropriate. Even if you had evidence this was done with rifles, it's a mere outlier compared to everything else here.
Its not an outlier, when it happens multiple times and is stated to happen multiple times. Explosives like a modern artillery Howitzer (which as a reminder killed two BoS Paladins in Nellis) is only 9-B to 9-A on our system as well. So they've died to an attack according to your previous statement they should no sell.
It's not cherrypicking when you have an overwhelming amount of canon cutscenes and scripted events on your side, like I clearly do. Even if I gathered every Power Armor feat in the franchise, you'd ignore them all and re-post "Danse's squad got killed by rifle bullets".
You're ignoring more evidence than just that and its in my favor.

But this thread is done. The topic from the OP has been applied. If you want to upgrade the Fatman to 8-B or 8-A feel free to make a new CRT, same thing with a PA durability upgrade. If its the latter I recommend that you make a list on who scales to what if its accepted though, to make editing easier since it'd likely be a verse wide upgrade.
 
Ignore all the lore I given you, and ignore the Legion, the Raiders, the NCR consistently winning, and high fall disabling suits.

I didn't ignore anything: all your points have been addressed above, and then some. Literally every single point you bring up in this reply has been directly addressed with lore, cutscenes and scripted events. Legion, NCR, Raiders... and you keep ignoring that Ingram's fall happened right after a nearby nuke impact, which has a blast, radiation, and fragmentation to consider, in addition to hundred foot fall, all in one feat.


Well actually the thread is done. If you're feeling like upgrading the universe to be universally 9-A or upgrading the fatman you're allowed to make a new CRT. (...) But this thread is done. The topic from the OP has been applied. If you want to upgrade the Fatman to 8-B or 8-A feel free to make a new CRT, same thing with a PA durability upgrade. If its the latter I recommend that you make a list on who scales to what if its accepted though, to make editing easier since it'd likely be a verse wide upgrade.

No it's not, because the thread starting post says:

So our Fallout profiles are like, laughably horrendous, don't link anything, missing abilities AND important profiles, have garbage formatting down to 3rd grade grammatical errors and are fugly. This is a thread for assistance towards unfucking it up.

This issue falls into that broad category, whether you like it or not, just like before, when you falsely claimed I was getting off topic. And stop hyperbolizing: Fallout isn't universally upgraded to 9-A just because it's strongest canonical armor gets upgraded.

The Legion Centurion you just posted has the helmet of a Super Mutant and the pauldron of T-45d armor. Both earned from killing something in combat. So yeah, they've killed armored BoS soldiers in the East, Caesar mentions being able to destroy the Mojave chapter at the cost of a lot of soldiers, and there's left over endings where they do just that. PA can be overwhelmed with enough people with enough guns, they are not utterly immune to bullets or the Brotherhood/Enclave would never lose an engagement against a force without energy weapons or a ton of heavy weapons, when they've lost to both for those reasons.

The Legion never defeats the Brotherhood without the Courier (the Player) directly assisting them:

During the fight for Hoover Dam, the Brotherhood took HELIOS One, inflicting heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, but it was a pyrrhic victory. Once The Strip was secured, Caesar's forces overwhelmed and eventually routed the Brotherhood from HELIOS One and Hidden Valley

This ending is triggered by this:

During Render Unto Caesar, do not destroy the Hidden Valley Bunker. Instead, kill all members of the Brotherhood inside. Complete the endgame quest Veni, Vidi, Vici for Caesar's Legion.

See that? Even after killing most of what's left of the already weakened chapter at Hidden Valley, they STILL HAVE ENOUGH STRENGTH to "inflict heavy damage on retreating NCR forces" and they only get defeated by the Legion due to being virtually exterminated already. as for Legion armor, the NCR has salvaged suits of T-45 Power Armor - which is made of steel - and the Legion is at war with NCR. The Legion's T-45 shoulder pauldron has no Brotherhood decals on it, unlike the Brotherhood T-45 armor, which does. The Mojave Chapter of the Brotherhood isn't even using T-45 in Hidden Valley: they universally use T-51, which is canonically a superior model. The NCR has no T-51 suits anywhere. Do the math. The Legion isn't going to take on and defeat the Brotherhood alone. They can't.

For some reason you're under the assumption that the rocket feat means the multiple lower showings are invalid, when that's not true. You have to take a collective look at them, and lore wise Danse being 8-A durability wise makes no sense as that means the Brotherhood would be utterly immune to explosives and standard kinetic weaponry, when both of those things are obviously not true. Their armor is specially designed to handle lasers and heat so he's good at handling lasers and heat.

Meanwhile, you just showed me Brotherhood T-60 armor suits scattered around a blast crater:

fallout_4_bos__recon_squad_artemis_battlefield_by_spartan22294_dd7b5xw-pre.jpg

And said they'd committed suicide after being attacked by rifles. Which is true: what we can see with our own eyes, or your deliberate misrepresentation?

Its not an outlier, when it happens multiple times and is stated to happen multiple times. Explosives like a modern artillery Howitzer (which as a reminder killed two BoS Paladins in Nellis) is only 9-B to 9-A on our system as well. So they've died to an attack according to your previous statement they should no sell.

Do you see any Paladins dying to rifle bullets in my examples? No you do not.

You're ignoring more evidence than just that and its in my favor.

Sure, kid, sure. (◔_◔) Like I said before, even if I gathered every Power Armor feat in the franchise, you'd ignore them all and re-post "Danse's squad got killed by rifle bullets".
 
“Sure, kid”

Don’t use snarky language. It always make someone’s points look bad, even if there points are clearly 100% facts.

I will say, unrelated to my previous part of this comment, I still think the power armor being defeated bullets would be the outlier here. The weakest part of the armor is stated to be bulletproof. The Courier didn’t say they were only bulletproof to 10mm, he said they are bulletproof in general. Yes they were talking about a 10mm before hand but that’s the reason the courier got so annoyed with the guy. Claiming that such a weak gun could be anything to power when even the weakest part of it is immune to bullets. Plus fallout constantly always screams the numbers of the opponents the brotherhood face, like they are outnumbered 15 to 1, they don’t talk about the weapons and always talk about the numbers. This means the writers believe the numbers was the most important part.

When you mentioned people in pa dying from falling 1) Last I checked armor in real life doesn’t work good against falls in general (if a tank fell 50 feet it’ll break for example), 2) some of the people were power armor did survive the intense falls so it is already inconsistent. I need to take a test soon, but I really want to try and calc the rocket feat dense survive because that vaporized like 6 robots (you said it incinerated them but every other vaporization feat I’ve seen this past month has counted ash as vaporization).

I’ll be back later.
 
“Sure, kid”

Don’t use snarky language. It always make someone’s points look bad, even if there points are clearly 100% facts.

I'll try to be more civil. In my defense, It's kinda hard to remain civil when dealing with someone who insists on using the same debate points over and over, ad nauseam.

I will say, unrelated to my previous part of this comment, I still think the power armor being defeated bullets would be the outlier here. The weakest part of the armor is stated to be bulletproof. The Courier didn’t say they were only bulletproof to 10mm, he said they are bulletproof in general. Yes they were talking about a 10mm before hand but that’s the reason the courier got so annoyed with the guy. Claiming that such a weak gun could be anything to power when even the weakest part of it is immune to bullets. Plus fallout constantly always screams the numbers of the opponents the brotherhood face, like they are outnumbered 15 to 1, they don’t talk about the weapons and always talk about the numbers. This means the writers believe the numbers was the most important part

Exactly. The exchange goes like this:

Ricky: "I was walking along, minding my own, and up pops one of them Brotherhoods. He yells {imitate authoritarian voice} "Hand over that laser rifle, asshole!" So I hand it over, just to make him think I'm scared! But really I'm not! I never am! Before he knows what hit him, I draw my 11mm{millimeter} machinegun and BAM! BAM! Right through the eyeslit in his helmet! D.O.A.!"

Courier: "What a load of crap. The eyeslits of T-series power armor are bullet-proof!"

Ricky: {startled, no idea what you're talking about} "Then I guess this dumb ******'s armor musta been... D-series or something! All I know is, he died up real dead when I killed him, okay?"

This dialogue only appears if the Courier has Power Armor training. No mention of larger bullets being able to damage the armor, at all, not even an implication. As for Ricky, he just so happens to be high on Psycho. Above link goes directly to the dialogue file.

When you mentioned people in pa dying from falling 1) Last I checked armor in real life doesn’t work good against falls in general (if a tank fell 50 feet it’ll break for example), 2) some of the people were power armor did survive the intense falls so it is already inconsistent. I need to take a test soon, but I really want to try and calc the rocket feat dense survive because that vaporized like 6 robots (you said it incinerated them but every other vaporization feat I’ve seen this past month has counted ash as vaporization).

I’ll be back later.

The very reference he uses for Power Armor "not being able to handle" long falls records a successful Prydwin-to-ground drop with unmodded Power Armor:

McLaren got his suit wiped out trying to drop from the top of Trinity Tower, so the current record holder is still Petris with his Prydwen-to-ground drop. Remember, no leg armor mods allowed, just a clean jump with standard T-60 and you have to be able to walk away. No exceptions.

There isn't any evidence that McLaren died, and it's contextually obvious that Petris landed with both himself and his suit intact. This is clearly a competition with a record holder, making this a matter of personal skill, rather than the suit being unable to survive the fall - Paladin Daryll said Power Armor is "so finely constructed to such exacting specifications that it feels like an extension of the blessed one's own body", so it makes sense that individual skill would be a major factor in the suit's performance. Add that to Ingram's feat, surviving a hundred foot fall after a nuke explosion. Using these feats to say Power Armor "can't survive" long falls like this is just extremely disingenuous.
 
I'll try to be more civil. In my defense, It's kinda hard to remain civil when dealing with someone who insists on using the same debate points over and over, ad nauseam.
It goes both ways, with you ignoring to multiple low showings in favor of inconsistent durability ratings.

But this thread is done. Feel free to make the previously mentioned upgrade threads when you get the chance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top