- 3,987
- 3,641
That sounds more like Statistics Amplification for speed specifically
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That sounds more like Statistics Amplification for speed specifically
You're using a random gameplay encounter to try and scale BoS soldiers to the full output of the Securitrons, which makes no sense. However I will say that if you don't upgrade the robots in Yes-Man's ending they'll be able to hold onto Helios, meaning the base securitrons aren't enough to deal with a weakened chapter.Notably, the Securitrons don't even try to use the 9mm submachine gun against the Paladins, and the Paladins survive direct, repeated rocket and grenade fire, as well as sustained automatic laser fire in every battle.
Not only did the mini-nuke completely miss her and hit a rock she was standing on, a mere 100 foot drop crippled her. T-60 suits can't jump from Trinity tower without being destroyed, Danse's squad of power armor knights were killed by explosives, mines, and raider gunfire; and the Legion is cala le of killing the Brotherhood all indicates the armor is not as consistently good as you're suggesting.Power Armor tanking a rocket engine at point-blank in a scripted event, and Proctor Ingram surviving both a near-miss from a mini-nuke and her subsequent hundred foot fall with only a spinal injury. If
You're using a random gameplay encounter to try and scale BoS soldiers to the full output of the Securitrons, which makes no sense. However I will say that if you don't upgrade the robots in Yes-Man's ending they'll be able to hold onto Helios, meaning the base securitrons aren't enough to deal with a weakened chapter.
Not only did the mini-nuke completely miss her and hit a rock she was standing on, a mere 100 foot drop crippled her. T-60 suits can't jump from Trinity tower without being destroyed, Danse's squad of power armor knights were killed by explosives, mines, and raider gunfire; and the Legion is cala le of killing the Brotherhood all indicates the armor is not as consistently good as you're suggesting.
I'm okay with it being 9-A. But it's not utterly beyond convential weaponry. There's to many consistent low showings for that to be true.
But they're in-game stats that cannot be replicated in-game without use of those tools. Its also completely reliant on gameplay mechanics and has no lore backing for how it goes, other than unupgraded Securitrons being unable to dislodge the BoS from Helios.1. There is nothing random about what you see up there: those fights were arranged using developer tools: the stats of the units were not changed.
One of the triggers for a BoS-Helios ending in the Independent route requires them not to be upgraded, which is where my statement comes from.2. The Securitrons never attack Helios whether you upgrade them or not. The Brotherhood holding onto Helios is entirely unrelated to the Securitrons.
You countered none of them. You forgot to take into account inverse square law with the mini-nuke which rapidly decreases the 8-C explosive rating to 9-B within a few yards, being killed by lasers capable of cutting through a few feet of steel is not a 9-A feat, and everything else is contradicted by Power Armor being consistently overwhelmed by conventional weapons in-universeI've already directly countered this point
None of those matter, because none of those weapons are what killed BoS soldiers in my examples. Raiders with assaults' rifles and explosives killed an Enclave patrol in a scripted Fallout 3 event, the NCR which generally does not use energy weapons has repeatable defeated the BoS, the Legion has defeated Brotherhood factions out east and in an ending can dislodge and destroy the Mojave BoS chapter, and the Raiders that killed Danse's squad used standard mines and kinetic weapons.As I said before, these weapons are known for flash vaporizing armored foes en masse when they explode.
Most weapons under most factions uses bullets. Even if you assume Fallout bullets are stronger than IRL ones that still limits the armor heavily.
And that durability is inconsistent in-universe. With different means of attack crippling armor or outright killing the user. Stepping on a mine can kill a person in T-60 armor. PA cannot be universally strong, or they wouldn't run into these issues. They're either better with dealing energy attacks or they're inconsistent. Either option means I'm against some blanket scaling upgrade on them.Typical energy weapon ammo is shown in scripted scenes to disintegrates people into ash piles in a single shot, and in gameplay happens to things as large as bears. Surviving dozens of such shots implies durability sufficient to survive dozens of such shots.
But they're in-game stats that cannot be replicated in-game without use of those tools.
Its also completely reliant on gameplay mechanics and has no lore backing for how it goes, other than unupgraded Securitrons being unable to dislodge the BoS from Helios. (...) One of the triggers for a BoS-Helios ending in the Independent route requires them not to be upgraded, which is where my statement comes from.
You countered none of them. You forgot to take into account inverse square law with the mini-nuke which rapidly decreases the 8-C explosive rating to 9-B within a few yards, being killed by lasers capable of cutting through a few feet of steel is not a 9-A feat, and everything else is contradicted by Power Armor being consistently overwhelmed by conventional weapons in-universe
None of those matter, because none of those weapons are what killed BoS soldiers in my examples. Raiders with assaults' rifles and explosives killed an Enclave patrol in a scripted Fallout 3 event, the NCR which generally does not use energy weapons has repeatable defeated the BoS, the Legion has defeated Brotherhood factions out east and in an ending can dislodge and destroy the Mojave BoS chapter, and the Raiders that killed Danse's squad used standard mines and kinetic weapons. (...) Most weapons under most factions uses bullets. Even if you assume Fallout bullets are stronger than IRL ones that still limits the armor heavily.
"Singlehandedly destroying a Brotherhood of Steel bunker is quite an accomplishment. Platoons of NCR troops have died, trying to do the same." - Robert House, when the player destroys Hidden Valley
Elijah was a strange one. His even becoming Elder was highly questionable, seeing as how he was a Scribe. Typically, only Paladins are eligible. But an exception was made in his case, on account of him being a genius. Unfortunately, whatever scientific acumen he had didn't extend to tactics. Trying to defend HELIOS was a blunder of the worst kind, and many brothers lost their lives because of it. HELIOS was the worst goddamned action I've seen in a long, long career of fighting. - Paladin Hardin
I'm sure someone's told you all this before. Several years back, we were running our chapter out the HELIOS One solar power station. Our Elder at the time, Elijah, had some kind of obsession with the place. Which is the only reason we stayed as long as we did. That place was hardly defensible, and we knew the NCR was moving in on us, but the Elder refused to budge, insisting that he just needed "more time". We never found out what he needed the time for. Wave upon wave of NCR troopers hit us from all directions. We held out for a time, but we were grossly outnumbered, and they had more men than we had ammo. Eventually our positions collapsed. Elder Elijah was nowhere to be found, so McNamara took charge and led what remained of us on a counter-offensive west. - Paladin Ramos
"(Elijah) was our Elder when we came East. A wizard with technology, really. His mind just worked that way naturally. Learned a lot from him. But he started having disagreements with the other Elders. The Brotherhood's interest is in old technology. He wanted to explore developing new tech. And there were other ways he wanted to push. Other weapons. Ones with ethics questions attached. Rather than deal with him, they sent him East. (...) They sent him to look into the Dam. There was a time when I'd have begged to follow. Watch him at work. (...) On our way East he demanded we stop at HELIOS One to examine it. While we were there, we received word that the NCR had taken the Dam." - Veronica
The Courier: The Brotherhood of Steel knew about ARCHIMEDES?
Ignacio Rivas: They weren't here (At Helios One) for me to ask, but I doubt they were here for electricity.
And that durability is inconsistent in-universe. With different means of attack crippling armor or outright killing the user. Stepping on a mine can kill a person in T-60 armor. PA cannot be universally strong, or they wouldn't run into these issues. They're either better with dealing energy attacks or they're inconsistent. Either option means I'm against some blanket scaling upgrade on them.
That's still purely based on gameplay mechanics.No, actually, that's how powerful they are in the base game.
According to House even after being upgraded his Mark II's would lose to the NCR, it would just cost them a lot of people:Securitrons never wander near Hidden Valley in game, though House mentions one of his Securitrons being destroyed by a Paladin there. Point being, the Brotherhood fights equally against Mark II Securitrons, despite barrages of lasers, grenades, and missiles. Not mere rifle bullets.
Also an important thing to note here: The NCR is capable of defeating House's entire army of Mark Is while losing less than a thousand people. Mark IIs would be stronger but not enough to wipe them out.Courier: Wasn't the NCR's army big enough to defeat your Securitrons and the Three Families?
House: Indeed it was - and still is. But not without taking significant casualties. Would Kimball and Oliver have traded the lives of hundreds of soldiers for absolute control of Hoover Dam? Oh yes. They weren't afraid of me, they were afraid of Caesar - that attacking me would leave them vulnerable to a Legion offensive. And so they negotiated. Not out of the kindness of their hearts, as they try to make it seem. Because the calculus of power left no other choice.
It is 8-C since you've never once provided evidence showing its better. In fact 8-C in of itself is questionable. The page you linked never compares them to the Crockett as well and the effects are far worse than what the Crockett could do IRL.1. A nuke is not 8-C. I've already countered this point, calling YOU out when you tried to use game mechanics to limit the mini-nuke's firepower despite it being directly comparable to a Davy Crockett in lore.
Yes, but that doesn't make it 9-A. The armor piercing round of a M1 Abrams tank is only 9-B+ and it can also punch through multiple feet of steel while over 500 meters away. They also died to this, so they're not scaling to its output2. A laser that can cut through several feet of steel can definitely cut through a small building made of lesser material.
They've been overwhelmed by3. Power Armor was only ever canonically "overwhelmed by conventional weapons" when the NCR outnumbered the Brotherhood 20-to-1 at an indefensible location, and even then NCR couldn't finish the job.
They exist, but the thing is none of the showing I mentioned used mico-fusion cells. Danse's crew was killed by frag mines and rifle rounds, the Enclave lost to raiders without energy weapons, and the Legion doesn't use microfusion cells.4. You are refusing to acknowledge the existence of microfusion cell ammo and the damage it canonically does compared to conventional weapons, and the fact that they are used in IEDs.
10mm auto has an energy of 900~ joules on average. Less than half the energy of most intermediate and rifle caliber ammunition.10mm auto - let alone the rest of the suit.
Or, the armor is not universally strong. Frag mines are not capable of replicating what the rocket did, but can disable and kill soldiers in power armor. Same with enough bullets and other explosives. You're assuming that because it resists one thing, it must have an equally good resistance to everything then are trying to upscale the universe based on that. When there's multiple counter examples for it.SO - if his squad was also wearing that same type of Power Armor, the raiders must have used firepower capable of breaching that armor where that rocket failed to do so
All you've done it just back my previous points and my point earlier in this comment. Paladins died, got overwhelmed, and could not handle the numbers. If their armor was 11,000 times more protective than their average weapons there's no way they could have lost that fight.All referencing the same battle, all involving the same chapter:
My version is the canon version. The BoS cannot deal with the NCR numbers and their weapons will eventually breach their armor. Something not possible if the armor has the capacity to tank kinetic damage rated over 11,000x times higher than the NCR's most common weaponYour version would result in this chapter being wiped out in minutes by standard gunfire. After all, they were being fired at by 20 guns per man.
Yes. Because bullets and explosives of far weaker levels than what you're suggesting have taken out entire squads and leaving them to destroy their suits or commit suicideReally? Because Proctor Ingram survived a near miss from a nuke in T-60 Power Armor with just a spinal injury, Danse survived a rocket engine to the face, and lasers that turn whole people directly to ash bounce clean off their armor in cutscenes, leaving nary a scratch. All of that is lore, and it's not all there is pointing to Power Armor being tougher than conventional weapons.
I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking and dismissel of canon events because they don't match your idea of what Power Armor can do.To be frank, I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking. You're just using the same low end outliers and deliberate misrepresentations over and over.
That's still purely based on gameplay mechanics.
According to House even after being upgraded his Mark II's would lose to the NCR, it would just cost them a lot of people: (...) Also an important thing to note here: The NCR is capable of defeating House's entire army of Mark Is while losing less than a thousand people. Mark IIs would be stronger but not enough to wipe them out.
It is 8-C since you've never once provided evidence showing its better. In fact 8-C in of itself is questionable. The page you linked never compares them to the Crockett as well and the effects are far worse than what the Crockett could do IRL.
(...) None of the above consistently uses high end weapons. Also this is important here, baseline 9-A is 20,920,000 joules. The .50 BMG hits with at least 18,000 joules and the ammo used for the NCR service rifle usually carries a force of 1,800 joules. That's a gap of to 11,622x to 1,162x. If they had universal 9-A durability that would mean they could not be damaged by the NCR and Legion weapons, in the same fashion that dozens of people with M-16s are going to damage Cold War era tanks or modern MBTs. Its obvious that they are not that tough consistently, or that wouldn't happen. (...)
They exist, but the thing is none of the showing I mentioned used mico-fusion cells. Danse's crew was killed by frag mines and rifle rounds, the Enclave lost to raiders without energy weapons, and the Legion doesn't use microfusion cells. (...) Or, the armor is not universally strong. Frag mines are not capable of replicating what the rocket did, but can disable and kill soldiers in power armor. Same with enough bullets and other explosives. You're assuming that because it resists one thing, it must have an equally good resistance to everything then are trying to upscale the universe based on that. When there's multiple counter examples for it.
My version is the canon version. (...)
Yes. Because bullets and explosives of far weaker levels than what you're suggesting have taken out entire squads and leaving them to destroy their suits or commit suicide
I'm getting tired of your cherrypicking and dismissel of canon events because they don't match your idea of what Power Armor can do.
Ignore all the lore I given you, and ignore the Legion, the Raiders, the NCR consistently winning, and high fall disabling suits.Sure kid sure: ignore all the lore I've given you - Paladin Danse surviving the rocket, Proctor Ingram surviving a near nuke and the following hundred-foot fall, that paladin tanking lore-proven man-vaporizing lasers to the chest at point-blank without a scratch: those were all lore, and scripted cutscenes... but it's just gameplay mechanics. (◔_◔)
His dialogue line appears after you have upgraded the Securitrons. They leave for reasons House also mentions, that its not worth the causalities they'd get in defeating his army.Obviously, House was referring to his existing Securitrons at the Strip
They're using a mechanical catapult to launch the warhead, not a recoilless heavy rifle with a range of multiple miles. The range they launch it at isn't enough to compare it to the Crockett.That lore - two soldiers totally vaporized by accident, struggles with the warhead being too heavy to launch far enough to be safe, the mere fact that it's a nuke - puts the Mini Nuke well above 8-C no matter how much you deny it.
Well actually the thread is done. If you're feeling like upgrading the universe to be universally 9-A or upgrading the fatman you're allowed to make a new CRT.the same way, until this thread closes
Yes, because they've literally done that lore wise. I do not know how you keep missing this point.yet you expect Service Rifles to consistently defeat Power Armor.
The Legion Centurion you just posted has the helmet of a Super Mutant and the pauldron of T-45d armor. Both earned from killing something in combat. So yeah, they've killed armored BoS soldiers in the East, Caesar mentions being able to destroy the Mojave chapter at the cost of a lot of soldiers, and there's left over endings where they do just that. PA can be overwhelmed with enough people with enough guns, they are not utterly immune to bullets or the Brotherhood/Enclave would never lose an engagement against a force without energy weapons or a ton of heavy weapons, when they've lost to both for those reasons.^ And I seriously doubt that a legionary, the best of whom wear this cobbled together hodgepodge armor and wield submachine guns, would stand a chance against a laser rifle. In fact, a random legionary just outside Nipton was reduced to ash by some scavenger who had a laser rifle. The Legion didn't even take it due to Caesar's silly Warrior-Luddite philosophy.
For some reason you're under the assumption that the rocket feat means the multiple lower showings are invalid, when that's not true. You have to take a collective look at them, and lore wise Danse being 8-A durability wise makes no sense as that means the Brotherhood would be utterly immune to explosives and standard kinetic weaponry, when both of those things are obviously not true. Their armor is specially designed to handle lasers and heat so he's good at handling lasers and heat.So... Danse's Power Armor survived a rocket engine in a scripted event, and you are asserting that multiple equivalent armors to Danse's were killed by "rifles and frag mines" despite that scripted feat, and all the others mentioned above, which aren't even close to every feat supporting tough Power Armor. In that case, the burden is on you to prove that Danse's T-60 is significantly different from other T-60 suits. You can't: there's nothing in the game saying it's any different than any other T-60, in gameplay or otherwise.
They lost over half their chapter and are frightened at moving out and losing even more people. I'm not saying they were stomped, but they lost people and its obvious they aren't immune to NCR weaponry since they could just beat everyone to death with melee weapons if that was true.The Mojave Brotherhood survived the NCR's attack despite the extreme numerical disadvantage, in exactly the way the characters in the game described it.
Its not an outlier, when it happens multiple times and is stated to happen multiple times. Explosives like a modern artillery Howitzer (which as a reminder killed two BoS Paladins in Nellis) is only 9-B to 9-A on our system as well. So they've died to an attack according to your previous statement they should no sell.That gigantic crater they are in doesn't look like it was done with any rifle bullets. The fact that the armor is largely structurally intact after whatever caused that impact actually precludes Service Rifles from damaging them - a Howitzer is slightly more appropriate. Even if you had evidence this was done with rifles, it's a mere outlier compared to everything else here.
You're ignoring more evidence than just that and its in my favor.It's not cherrypicking when you have an overwhelming amount of canon cutscenes and scripted events on your side, like I clearly do. Even if I gathered every Power Armor feat in the franchise, you'd ignore them all and re-post "Danse's squad got killed by rifle bullets".
Ignore all the lore I given you, and ignore the Legion, the Raiders, the NCR consistently winning, and high fall disabling suits.
Well actually the thread is done. If you're feeling like upgrading the universe to be universally 9-A or upgrading the fatman you're allowed to make a new CRT. (...) But this thread is done. The topic from the OP has been applied. If you want to upgrade the Fatman to 8-B or 8-A feel free to make a new CRT, same thing with a PA durability upgrade. If its the latter I recommend that you make a list on who scales to what if its accepted though, to make editing easier since it'd likely be a verse wide upgrade.
So our Fallout profiles are like, laughably horrendous, don't link anything, missing abilities AND important profiles, have garbage formatting down to 3rd grade grammatical errors and are fugly. This is a thread for assistance towards unfucking it up.
The Legion Centurion you just posted has the helmet of a Super Mutant and the pauldron of T-45d armor. Both earned from killing something in combat. So yeah, they've killed armored BoS soldiers in the East, Caesar mentions being able to destroy the Mojave chapter at the cost of a lot of soldiers, and there's left over endings where they do just that. PA can be overwhelmed with enough people with enough guns, they are not utterly immune to bullets or the Brotherhood/Enclave would never lose an engagement against a force without energy weapons or a ton of heavy weapons, when they've lost to both for those reasons.
During the fight for Hoover Dam, the Brotherhood took HELIOS One, inflicting heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, but it was a pyrrhic victory. Once The Strip was secured, Caesar's forces overwhelmed and eventually routed the Brotherhood from HELIOS One and Hidden Valley
During Render Unto Caesar, do not destroy the Hidden Valley Bunker. Instead, kill all members of the Brotherhood inside. Complete the endgame quest Veni, Vidi, Vici for Caesar's Legion.
For some reason you're under the assumption that the rocket feat means the multiple lower showings are invalid, when that's not true. You have to take a collective look at them, and lore wise Danse being 8-A durability wise makes no sense as that means the Brotherhood would be utterly immune to explosives and standard kinetic weaponry, when both of those things are obviously not true. Their armor is specially designed to handle lasers and heat so he's good at handling lasers and heat.
Its not an outlier, when it happens multiple times and is stated to happen multiple times. Explosives like a modern artillery Howitzer (which as a reminder killed two BoS Paladins in Nellis) is only 9-B to 9-A on our system as well. So they've died to an attack according to your previous statement they should no sell.
You're ignoring more evidence than just that and its in my favor.
“Sure, kid”
Don’t use snarky language. It always make someone’s points look bad, even if there points are clearly 100% facts.
I will say, unrelated to my previous part of this comment, I still think the power armor being defeated bullets would be the outlier here. The weakest part of the armor is stated to be bulletproof. The Courier didn’t say they were only bulletproof to 10mm, he said they are bulletproof in general. Yes they were talking about a 10mm before hand but that’s the reason the courier got so annoyed with the guy. Claiming that such a weak gun could be anything to power when even the weakest part of it is immune to bullets. Plus fallout constantly always screams the numbers of the opponents the brotherhood face, like they are outnumbered 15 to 1, they don’t talk about the weapons and always talk about the numbers. This means the writers believe the numbers was the most important part
When you mentioned people in pa dying from falling 1) Last I checked armor in real life doesn’t work good against falls in general (if a tank fell 50 feet it’ll break for example), 2) some of the people were power armor did survive the intense falls so it is already inconsistent. I need to take a test soon, but I really want to try and calc the rocket feat dense survive because that vaporized like 6 robots (you said it incinerated them but every other vaporization feat I’ve seen this past month has counted ash as vaporization).
I’ll be back later.
McLaren got his suit wiped out trying to drop from the top of Trinity Tower, so the current record holder is still Petris with his Prydwen-to-ground drop. Remember, no leg armor mods allowed, just a clean jump with standard T-60 and you have to be able to walk away. No exceptions.
It goes both ways, with you ignoring to multiple low showings in favor of inconsistent durability ratings.I'll try to be more civil. In my defense, It's kinda hard to remain civil when dealing with someone who insists on using the same debate points over and over, ad nauseam.