Exdeath vs Arale [Battle for 7th Strongest Smurf 2-A and 3rd Strongest Non-Smurf 2-A]

[Ss3micah]

Battle for 7th Strongest Smurf 2-A and 3rd Strongest Non-Smurf 2-A​

Character​	Key​
Exdeath​	Dissidia Exdeath
Arale Norimaki	Towale

Rules:
Speed Equalized
O.E Included
SBA for Everything Else

Votes:
Emissary of the Void:
Emissary of the Plot:
Emissary of Inconclusive:

 

[Ss3micah]

I'm gonna ask before anything else for all participants to keep this debate clean and simple
This debate is primarily for fun and enjoyment
So let's have a good time debating, matching wits, strategies and abilities of the characters in question
And win or lose, let's just have fun

I think it's important to say that first and foremost before anyone start

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Well before voting, i want to know what are exdeaths wincons and starting move.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I brief reminder that Exdeath is actually placeholder and the spot should just be characters from Final Fantasy also this guy kinda just exists and wins.

 

[Ss3micah]

I brief reminder that Exdeath is actually placeholder and the spot should just be characters from Final Fantasy also this guy kinda just exists and wins.

I knew none of this
Well Exdeath is the one on the list so……
Someone should change that

So should I switch Exdeath to him then?
Also what specifically does he have that makes you say he exists and wins?
And what defense does he have against Plot shenanigans?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I knew none of this
Well Exdeath is the one on the list so……
Someone should change that

So should I switch Exdeath to him then?
Also what specifically does he have that makes you say he exists and wins?
And what defense does he have against Plot shenanigans?

The Creator is composite classic FF so he has ALL the P&A displayed in those games thanks to these.

*The Creator is essentially IZ on steroids; as soon as the battles starts he passively is becoming one with the world which is accelerated by endlessly duplicating himself, alongside mutant AD and is innately bloodlusted too.

*He is accompanied by an army of space ladies who can summon these guys.

*Haxwise Arale gets: outranged (2-B Vs 2-A), will have no idea what The Creator's next move is (thanks to his type 2 acausality), will quickly get overwhelmed instantly (thanks to essentially fighting all of classic FF at once), will struggle to even affect The Creator (Thanks to his conceptual type 1 AE, acausality and various summons) and will likely get outsmarted too.

Tl;dr: The instant The Creator realises he can't kill Arale via conventional means, he'll use 2-A sealing on her for a quick incap which not even the 4th wall can stop.


Honestly I think this MU might be a stomp unless Arale's most potent stuff (most notable plot hax) has shown to affect type 1 AEs of type 1 concepts while also using it off the bat and doing so before she gets rocked.

 

[Ss3micah]

I brief reminder that Exdeath is actually placeholder and the spot should just be characters from Final Fantasy also this guy kinda just exists and wins.

Just to give you a VERY brief Idea of Arale's options and wincons here; be it against Exdeath or the Creator:

Arale's abuse of 4th Wall Hax allows her to exit the boundaries of the cartoon and animation and enter inside the 4th wall itself. While inside the 4th wall, Arale is completely invisible and undetectable to those who don't have 4th Wall Awareness and un-interactable to those who don't have 4th Wall Breaking. While inside the 4th Wall, Arale can oversee every event that occurs in the plot and she can even attack from inside 4th wall as well or simply spam plot manipulation. Neither Exdeath nor the Creator would be able to detect or affect Arale while she's in the 4th wall due to lack of 4th wall hax and while I will give it to them that they have the range necessary to affect Arale even while in the 4th wall, they would not know she's even their due to not being able to perceive the 4th wall at all.

Also due to her Multilocation, Arale simultaneously is present inside and outside of the 4th wall at the start. So while Exdeath / Creator would be focused on the Arale they see in front of them; the Arale that would be inside the 4th wall would be completely undetectable to them both. And while inside the 4th Wall, Arale can either just go full Plot Erasure and remove Exdeath/Creator from all points across the narrative (this would work as Neither character has High Godly Regen that covers Narrative scale) or she could just rewrite the plot of Final Fantasy 4 and 5, to make it so that the Creator died along with his race Eons ago or that Exdeath never escaped his seal.

 

[Ss3micah]

The Creator is composite classic FF so he has ALL the P&A displayed in those games thanks to these.

Wait what?
What do you mean?
He's like a composite of every classic Final Character ever?
Or does he simply have access to every magic ability ever used throughout the series?
Cause im not really seeing exactly where Crystal Hax covers everything

The Creator is essentially IZ on steroids; as soon as the battles starts he passively is becoming one with the world which is accelerated by endlessly duplicating himself, alongside mutant AD and is innately bloodlusted too.

Arale can just stop the plot then. It's like hitting pause on a Youtube Video. She would be able to see his spreading across the world happening due to Precog and Cosmic Awareness and just stop the Plot to prevent him from doing so. And while the Plot is stopped she has all the time in the world to try anything possible to beat Creator.

*He is accompanied by an army of space ladies who can summon these guys.

Those guys wont move in stopped Plot im sure. Also she can just passive social influence them and turn all of them against Creator. She can also just use her own Subjective Reality Hax to create exact duplications of them that will fight for her or just BFR all of them into a Virtual world since none of them resist Data Hax. Arale also has the capability to to create innumerable duplications of herself as well, Summon Gatchan who can also multiply dozens of times in an instant and use Mr. Time to call forth innumerable versions of herself across every point in time. And each would be just as haxy as the Original.

Haxwise Arale gets: outranged (2-B Vs 2-A), will have no idea what The Creator's next move is (thanks to his type 2 acausality), will quickly get overwhelmed instantly (thanks to essentially fighting all of classic FF at once), will struggle to even affect The Creator (Thanks to his conceptual type 1 AE, acausality and various summons) and will likely get outsmarted too.

Not sure exactly how CM1 is supposed to work in all hoesnty. Just going by the description (which is fair to do) the CM1 Hax is a Concept Creation type hax that is used to create all of reality and existence. Not sure how it could be used in an offensive manner.
Also Creator may have Acausal 2 but he is not unbound by the Plot. Arale's Precog, Cosmic Awareness and Info Analysis (all of which utilizes the 4th wall) works by directly taking a look into the events scripted to happen in the plot. Unless Creator is unbound by the plot as well then the plot still records his actions and every event concerning him which is exactly what Arale will see and use to her advantage
And IIRC, Causality Factors doesn't influence nor Impact Narrative/Metafiction Factors

Tl;dr: The instant The Creator realises he can't kill Arale via conventional means, he'll use 2-A sealing on her for a quick incap which not even the 4th wall can stop.

Thats true
If he goes for 2-A sealing Arale is done and 4th wall shenanigans cant stop that because the 2-A range is omnidirectional
Arale's only chance of winning would be to try some heavy hax like plot hax before Creator realizes that Sealing is only chance

Honestly I think this MU might be a stomp unless Arale's most potent stuff (most notable plot hax) has shown to affect type 1 AEs of type 1 concepts while also using it off the bat and doing so before she gets rocked.

Wait.....
The Creator is a Type 1 Concept?
I thought it was just the Crystals not the Creator himself?
Is Creator the Type 1 Concept or the Crystals?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Wait what?
What do you mean?
He's like a composite of every classic Final Character ever?
Or does he simply have access to every magic ability ever used throughout the series?
Cause im not really seeing exactly where Crystal Hax covers everything

He created the crystals to record and further the evolution of the classic game worlds as a result they assimilated the powers, memories, skills, etc of nearly every character in the first six games hence the composite.

Wait.....
The Creator is a Type 1 Concept?
I thought it was just the Crystals not the Creator himself?
Is Creator the Type 1 Concept or the Crystals?

He created the Crystals which are type 1 concepts and then absorbed their essence (which is conceptual) and become one with them via scaling to guy who did it (It also further explains why he is composite classic FF).

Also plot precog can bypass type 2 acasual? I haven't heard of that one before I might post Q&A thread about it later since that's a can of worms.

 

[Ss3micah]

He created them to record and further the evolution of the classic game worlds as a result they assimilated the powers, memories, skills, etc of nearly every character in the first six games hence the composite.

Someone should really make it so his profile properly reflects this because I did not see it mentioned anywhere on his profile

He created the Crystals which are type 1 concepts and then absorbed their essence (which is conceptual) and become one with them via scaling to guy who did it.

Oh Joy
The man is Type 1 Concept

Also plot precog can bypass type 2 acasual? I haven't heard of that one before I might post Q&A thread about it later since that's a can of worms.

Basically the ideology as I heard it comes the idea that:
For example as an Anology

Exdeath is a Type 2 Acausal being

You watch a long walkthrough of Final Fantasy 5 on Youtube and reach the part where Exdeath fights Galuf

Then you skip the Youtube video to the Final Boss fight where Exdeath faces Bartz and the warriors of light.

In both moments, (Exdeath vs Galuf and Exdeath vs Warriors of Light), Exdeath would be present in both moments of the video. You can move the video between both moments of the video and Exdeath would be present in both moments

The reason is because Acausal 2 only extends to Time/Causality but not the Metafictional aspects of the plot. While Time can’t record Exdeath’s actions the Plot still can because the plot operates on a different level that Exdeath ultimately still functions within as Exdeath is still bound by the narrative.


But yeah regardless
If this man is a Type 1 Concept then nothing Arale can do would phase him and due to Acausal 2, Time Travel shenanigans would do nothing to help either. And a plot manipulation has not feats with interacting with Type 1 Concepts.

So yeah, the only thing that would happen here is for Arale to patiently wait until the Creator realizes Arale has a counter for almost all his offensive arsenal and options and then just resorts to 2-A sealing

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Snip!

Yeah FF is still in the middle of revisions (there's lore that now gives some of the modern games classic era scaling and hax) and the relevant information (tho available) is scatter on different profiles, hopefully the pages will become more detailed when the FFXIII era revisions are out and complete (that's when the cosmology blog should be done) but it'll be awhile until then.

If it's any consolation, The Creator is probably the only type 1 AE FF character that would eventually use sealing IC (due to being bloodlusted) the rest Arale would likely incon (in 2-C) Also tbf she solos like 80% of the verse.

Intresting, I'm well aware of abilities having nuanced potency (E.g resistance to fire manipulation doesn't grant protection from supernatural or mystical flames or resistance to EE doesn't grant protection from concept or meta erasure) but I wasn't aware it also applied to acausality, tbh my planned Q&A thread is mainly about my concerns about hax potency vs hax application I've seen on CRTs and Vs threads that's led to many misconceptions.

Yeah her best NPI comes from crossing scaling with DBS with Goku, Vegata and Trunks using ki blasts to interact with IZ (a will/thought abstract) but that's pretty dubious at best when applying it to her hax.

Thanks for the debate (as short as it was).

 

[Ss3micah]

If it's any consolation, The Creator is probably the only type 1 AE FF character that would eventually use sealing IC (due to being bloodlusted) the rest Arale would likely incon (in 2-C) Also tbf she solos like 80% of the verse.

Creator should be the one at the 3rd 2-C position lolol
He definitely deserves it more than Exdeath

Thanks for the debate (as short as it was).

Yeah the Creator takes this
I shall request Deceived to make him have the 3rd Position instead
Btw I changed the combatants a bit lol

Now its for the 7th strongest Smurf 2-A and 3rd strongest Non-Smurf 2-A
And it's between the Forerunner of Final Fantasy Dissidia Exdeath and Towale

 

[StrymULTRA]

Exdeath FRB.

 

[Ss3micah]

Exdeath FRB.

Those reasons were not for Exdeath
Those were for the creator

As Axiom said…. Exdeath is more or less a placeholder while the real forerunner for the 2-C spot is the Creator

Anyways
I’ve already asked Deceived to remove Exdeath from the 2-C spot and place the Creator instead since he might as well be Exdeath plus all the other final bosses of the classic Era

The OP has since been edited And new combatants have been selected
This is now for 2-A and it’s between Dissdia Exdeath and Towale
So new arguments will need to be brought to the table

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do you know what FRB mean m8?

 

[Ss3micah]

Do you know what FRB mean m8?

Yeah
For reasons below (which have not been stated but whatevs lol)
I just think it’s fair to get the air cleared for anyone else who may come to this thread and still think it’s between 2-C Exdeath and Arale given the initial comments

 

[StrymULTRA]

Man so much text for a troll comment, then y'all wonder why I hate DB supporters.

 

[Ss3micah]

Thanks for the debate (as short as it was).

Well Axiom
If your ever up for more I'd like to here some arguments for Dissidia Exdeath

As for Towale, here arguments pretty much hold up the same PLUS extra:

4th Wall Hax abuse now works on a level beyond baseline 2-A range so Towale in the 4th Wall is completely unperceivable, undetectable and unreachable due to Exdeath only having Baseline 2-A range and lack of 4th wall awareness/interaction.
Also due to Multilocation Hax allowing Towale to be present inside and outside of the 4th Wall simultaneously, Exdeath can never truly win here as he can never perceive nor reach the Towale in the 4th Wall

The Towale would also know of Exdeath's full capabilities as Neo Exdeath (I.E. his Incorporeality and NEP) due to her abuse of 4th Wall Cosmic Awareness, Information Analysis, Precognition and Retrocognition. And just resort to Plot Hax (since Exdeath doesn't lack Narrative) and either just remove him from the narrative (and since his High-Godly doesn't cover narrative he likely cant come back from that) and assuming that is not enough to kill him then she can just rewrite the plot of FF5 to make it so that Exdeath never escaped his seal in the first place or just Social Influence him into being her friend or just rewrite his character to make him non-hostile and benevolent

Speed also would have the speed advantage to do so relatively quickly btw because she can amp her speed by at least x50 and at most x5000

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Snip... again

Meet Garland 1 and Garland 2 both have the same crystal shenanigans as mentioned above, they lack the range to reach the demon robot lady fusion but she can't affect them nor touch them, one massive incon it seems.

Exdeath is actually pretty mid in the FF food chain and tbh it was the old NEP standards that carried him in retrospect, he's still very haxxed to be sure but he's nowhere near as powerful as other FF characters plus if future revisions go as planned well there's a reason FF is often seen as the child of DnD but I will say no more.

Also I'm far from the most knowledgeable about FF but hopefully with FFXVI coming out, the other supporters will become more active in these threads.

 

[Ss3micah]

Meet Garland 1 and Garland 2 both have the same crystal shenanigans as mentioned above, they lack the range to reach the demon robot lady fusion but she can't affect them nor touch them, one massive incon it seems.

So Demon Robot Lady cant affect Type 1 Concepts and Based AF Chaos Man lacks Range
Yeah this is an Incon if I have ever seen one

Exdeath is actually pretty mid in the FF food chain and tbh it was the old NEP standards that carried him in retrospect, he's still very haxxed to be sure but he's nowhere near as powerful as other FF characters plus if future revisions go as planned well there's a reason FF is often seen as the child of DnD but I will say no more.

At this point I must question Dafuq was Exdeath doing on the list lolol. Clearly just taking up space for more deserving characters

Also I'm far from the most knowledgeable about FF but hopefully with FFXVI coming out, the other supporters will become more active in these threads.

Meh, I care only to have fun debates with interesting individuals. Doesn't matter to me where or not your knowledgeable so long as you can make interesting points and arguments


Anyways
Regardless, It seems like I'll need to ask Deceived to remove Exdeath from the Top 10 list and replace him with Garland (since he's more OP) and ask him to have the spot shared with Arale

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

there's a reason FF is often seen as the child of DnD but I will say no more.

It's thanks to that Tolkien ancestry