Eternatus ain't 2-A and neither are the rest of the mons

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Busy work day so this might be the only response I’ll make until later today, but for now:

“A light flutter of its wings causes houses to to blow apart. Then flapping its wings causes 40-day storms.”
The difference between these two is literally thousands of times man. There is literally nothing about flapping wings is innately causal at all.

“Thousands of times” is an arbitrary huge stretch, but more importantly, this would have to do with the results of the feats having a difference, not the effort taken to unleash them. Someone can make a kick that’s 8-C, then put more seriousness into a punch that could obliterate a town, but that doesn’t mean 7-C requires them to go all out.

Birds fluttering wings, and then flapping them, as as “big of a difference” as someone walking and then going into running. The difference in effort taken is not that significant at all.

Not to mention the fact that Lugia also doesn’t need to continuously flap its wings for a 40 day length of time either for the generated storms to last that long, as the Pokédex never makes that detail, which would likely be the case if it really needed to exert that much effort into flapping its wings to make that feat happen.

“I already noted this out earlier. The protagonist simply training up their team over the course of the story”

Not to the point they defeat themselves times infinity. Growing generically stronger doesn’t mean “it makes sense when they fight themselves times infinite power”.

Look at half the cast of, say, Dragon Ball Super for example where characters jump from several tiers to 2-C with minimal training and say this again.

If the creation trio is fighting seriously they would just have your existence stop so the clearly innately aren’t. That’s in character, that’s what they did to Cyrus. If they don’t like you they delete you on the spot.

Putting aside, you know, existence erasure and hax that nothing in the verse sans Giratina and Arceus resists, no one is saying the trainer Pokémon scale above the full power of the CT either.

The point is that they aren’t infinitely superior to them simply for being creation gods.

 

[Arceus0x]

Honestly so far I feel like the digimon solution is the best, saying "A tier, up to B tier for the strongest ones".

At the same time I think if people don't like the vaires tier for the avatars (which i will let the mods decide) we could still just nuke the 2-A galar scaling for being inconsistent.

In the first place our legendary scaling has been outdated and hyper-reliant on the manga for some reason whilst ignoring Anime scaling which honestly has been more consistent.

 

[Mickey1940]

This suggestion was already brought up before and it would be a no. You can’t just nerf a version of a character or apply a random varied type of rating without an actual in-universe reason or narrative explanation provided in the series that presents the idea of the versions being weaker. The creation trios physical forms are never, in any way whatsoever, implied or even suggested to be weaker than their true forms. There’s literally no difference between them, besides one version obviously being the conceptual abstractions and the other being their physical avatars that they use for interacting with the multiverse.

The only reason given for nerfing the Avatars consists of “bad showings” when that has nothing to do with them being narratively weaker and has everything to do with, at worst, inconsistencies with their power. Without taking into account them being blown out of proportion with whatever’s considered “bad” and blatantly ignoring concepts like AP being a thing.

then what should we do about the rental pokemon in Gen 8?

the rental pokemon are all 2A from scaling to the Creation Trio's Dynamax forms, yet they use the same amount of effort and teamwork against every other legendary

but at the same time we can't equalize all legendaries due to @Arceus0x 's reasons

 

[Mickey1940]

I mean, the main reason why the rental pokemon, or any pokemon for that matter, can stand up to the creation trio is cuz base stats are a thing. It's not like Dialga has a base stat total of infinity just because it's infinitely stronger than a Charizard who has a bst of 534

Would it be reasonable to take base stats into account for other pokemon? I assume prob not but maybe?

 

[Mickey1940]

In the first place our legendary scaling has been outdated and hyper-reliant on the manga for some reason whilst ignoring Anime scaling which honestly has been more consistent.

what is the anime scaling? I only watched up to Gen 3 and I haven't gotten to any of the movies besides the Mewtwo movie yet

 

[Arceus0x]

what is the anime scaling? I only watched up to Gen 3 and I haven't gotten to any of the movies besides the Mewtwo movie yet

Just anime legendary and trainer scaling. There's been more feats and Interfighting between legendaries, there's ash who can be used as a point of orientation since he fully beat Tapu Koko, there's overall portrayal and more.
I think it's more consistent because it portrays legendaries as just that - legendaries. They're strong, really hard to beat and aren't getting solo'd by Delibirds like Dialga and Palkia did in the manga.

 

[Arceus0x]

Would it be reasonable to take base stats into account for other pokemon? I assume prob not but maybe?

Some of the rentals are unevolved starters if i remember correctly from the list. Base stats wouldn't work here.

 

[Mickey1940]

Some of the rentals are unevolved starters if i remember correctly from the list. Base stats wouldn't work here.

why not?

something like Squirtle has base stats like 3 or 4 times weaker than the likes of Groudon and Kyogre

yet rental pokemon in teams of 4 can deal damage to and fight legendaries

on paper this seems reasonable?

 

[Arceus0x]

why not?

something like Squirtle has base stats like 3 or 4 times weaker than the likes of Groudon and Kyogre

yet rental pokemon in teams of 4 can deal damage to and fight legendaries

on paper this seems reasonable?

If the stats allow Magikarp to downscale from Dialga that means the stats are unusable

 

[Hypertornado099]

I think we can scale the Hoopa movie Lugia to Zekrom, Reshiram and Rayquaza

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

then what should we do about the rental pokemon in Gen 8?

the rental pokemon are all 2A from scaling to the Creation Trio's Dynamax forms, yet they use the same amount of effort and teamwork against every other legendary

but at the same time we can't equalize all legendaries due to @Arceus0x 's reasons

I’m not too knowledgeable on the rental Pokémon thing, as honestly, I didn’t even know the Gen 8 legendaries were 2-A until very recently.

To let the record reflect, my arguments here is mainly about the generalized scaling of legendaries in general. When it comes to the SwSh legendaries case specifically, I’m moreso split and can see the arguments from both sides.

That being said, I have issues with Arceus’s arguments

In the first place our legendary scaling has been outdated and hyper-reliant on the manga for some reason whilst ignoring Anime scaling which honestly has been more consistent.

I really don’t agree with this. If it “looks” like we overly on the Manga, that’s simply because some legendaries have very little, if not, no appearances in other mediums to get a full sense or scope of their capabilities. Zygarde for example.

And as it was mentioned when we nuked the canon split, all the pokemon mediums are equally valid sources to help portray a Pokémon’s depicted capabilities.

Not to mention the scaled legendaries have next to 0 anti feats to make the scaling problematic.

 

[Mickey1940]

If the stats allow Magikarp to downscale from Dialga that means the stats are unusable

i mean, you can beat sword and shield with just magikarp

ik it sounds extremely ridiculous but right now several rental pokemon can compete with legendaries with levels alone, and that's exactly how they're scaled on the wiki

so why not make levels, and therefore other game mechanics like base stats, also account for their profiles?

obviously it pains me to say this but at the moment we're using some game mechanics and excluding others, I'm just proposing that we either use ALL game mechanics at face value, or use none of them at all and start back at square 1

 

[Keeweed]

“Dragon Ball Super for example where characters jump from several tiers to 2-C with minimal training and say this again.”

Worst example ever dragon ball either doesn’t have people scale or specifically goes hard out of their way to particularly say why someone is a god tier now even if the explanation is super poor.

There is nothing here, pokemon can grow stronger, yes, that doesn’t mean that is referring to them getting so strong they can fight the two things that literally are their existence from past, present, and future across the infinite multiverse. Again if those two are really fighting with effort, they would erase you. They specifically have the erasing moves in their kit and are programmed to use it in the game yet don’t erase you meaning they innately have to be hold back. Occam's Razor the god of existence didn’t want to obliterate a random 10 year old who just fought the guy trying to force them to do something against their will. Or, they actually are trying for some reason, despite the fact they didn’t try erasing you, when they will do so like with Cyrus who they obliterated the half second they got the chance, I think the former makes infinitely more sense.

 

[Keeweed]

Also super important dragon ball is even more unrelated example, nobody in dragon ball made everyone across time and the only person who can kill everyone across all space and time is the guy nobody scales to (Zeno) meanwhile the creation trio are just straight up are everyone’s space and time.

 

[Bananossauro]

i mean, you can beat sword and shield with just magikarp

ik it sounds extremely ridiculous but right now several rental pokemon can compete with legendaries with levels alone, and that's exactly how they're scaled on the wiki

so why not make levels, and therefore other game mechanics like base stats, also account for their profiles?

obviously it pains me to say this but at the moment we're using some game mechanics and excluding others, I'm just proposing that we either use ALL game mechanics at face value, or use none of them at all and start back at square 1

Even if I see the vision, don't think base stats could work because I fail to see a way to implement the physical/special split in a way that makes sense and thats whithout considering the quircky stuff they bring.
Like even, if you say they aren't linear, like DB power levels, we still have a lot of guys with higher stats than Arceus and the CT

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

“Dragon Ball Super for example where characters jump from several tiers to 2-C with minimal training and say this again.”

Worst example ever dragon ball either doesn’t have people scale or specifically goes hard out of their way to particularly say why someone is a god tier now even if the explanation is super poor.

So your saying characters like Krillin, Goten, Kid Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo, and more who barely, if not, don't get any sort of divine like amps like Goku and Vegeta get, can be 2-C strictly through minimal training and that's fine, but Pokemon trainers training their Pokemon up isn't?

Dragon Ball is also only the first verse to immediately come to mind, there's undoubtedly more (and probably better) examples of characters getting upgraded through strictly training being a thing as well.

There is nothing here, pokemon can grow stronger, yes, that doesn’t mean that is referring to them getting so strong they can fight the two things that literally are their existence from past, present, and future across the infinite multiverse. Again if those two are really fighting with effort, they would erase you. They specifically have the erasing moves in their kit and are programmed to use it in the game yet don’t erase you meaning they innately have to be hold back. Occam's Razor the god of existence didn’t want to obliterate a random 10 year old who just fought the guy trying to force them to do something against their will. Or, they actually are trying for some reason, despite the fact they didn’t try erasing you, when they will do so like with Cyrus who they obliterated the half second they got the chance, I think the former makes infinitely more sense.

For one, the bolded only goes for their true forms, not their Avatars, and even then at worst, Dialga and Palkia would be holding back (if at all) to just a lesser degree of 2-A, not several several levels of infinity lower, they have 0 reason to do that. Just because they aren't using time or space hax in this scenario, or their signature moves for instance, does not mean they aren't using 2-A power on some level against you. And then what about every other legendary in the games? Are they, wild creatures, just so choosing to not fight you with some level of their power too? Highly convenient and just a cop out. Not using your best abilities =/= not fighting in their tier.

The protagonist in every single game is narratively built up to rise to the level of fighting or catching the regional legendaries, it's literally a plot point for them to be strong enough to face them. Your only basis for "if they actually tried, they'd stomp" to begin with hinges on the skeptics of not wanting to believe the player can become that strong, and multiple times now it's been covered why sheer skepticism is a very bad argument to use against this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

i mean, you can beat sword and shield with just magikarp

ik it sounds extremely ridiculous but right now several rental pokemon can compete with legendaries with levels alone, and that's exactly how they're scaled on the wiki

To play devils advocate, I would just like to know, why would the rental Pokemon thing be game mechanics? Because as far as I understand, fighting Dmaxed versions of legendaries is acknowledged in-universe with the characters themselves saying the raids have Pokemon who don't normally exist in Galar be present there.

It's basically Sword and Shields versions of Ultra Wormholes, which obviously isn't game mechanics.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

And as always Pokémon being a disaster on this site.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Just anime legendary and trainer scaling. There's been more feats and Interfighting between legendaries, there's ash who can be used as a point of orientation since he fully beat Tapu Koko, there's overall portrayal and more.
I think it's more consistent because it portrays legendaries as just that - legendaries. They're strong, really hard to beat and aren't getting solo'd by Delibirds like Dialga and Palkia did in the manga.

I don't think that makes the anime more "consistent". Legendaries are not portrayed as being impossible to beat in general, it really depends on which legendary you're talking about. The anime has instances of legendaries being defeated by non-legendaries too

 

[Hypertornado099]

So what's gonna happen to Eternatus' tiering?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So what's gonna happen to Eternatus' tiering?

Personally I’m split because I can see the arguments from both sides when it comes to that in particular.

Maybe leaning towards keeping it? If the Dmaxed legendaries like the CT are acknowledged in-universe like how ultra wormholes are, they aren’t game mechanics, so that certainly can’t be used as an argument to get rid of the ratings.

Unless someone else has a better explanation or argument to use here.

 

[Keeweed]

“For one, the bolded only goes for their true forms, not their Avatars, and even then at worst, Dialga and Palkia would be holding back (if at all) to just a lesser degree of 2-A”
They get their 2-A from their true forms and if they are holding back there is absolutely nothing saying they are still 2A then. We know they are holding back because they don’t eradicate you with their basic attack when we know they absolutely can.

 

[Arceus0x]

I say - 3-C, likely High 3-A, up to 2-B, likely 2-A (honestly I wanna make the profiles plain High 3-A and 2-A at some point but I feel like there'll be pushback) with their normal forms. Origin forms scale to plain 2-B, likely 2-A and true forms are true forms.

 

[Mickey1940]

To play devils advocate, I would just like to know, why would the rental Pokemon thing be game mechanics? Because as far as I understand, fighting Dmaxed versions of legendaries is acknowledged in-universe with the characters themselves saying the raids have Pokemon who don't normally exist in Galar be present there.

It's basically Sword and Shields versions of Ultra Wormholes, which obviously isn't game mechanics.

fair enough

still very annoying to actually scale tho

Even if I see the vision, don't think base stats could work because I fail to see a way to implement the physical/special split in a way that makes sense and thats whithout considering the quircky stuff they bring.
Like even, if you say they aren't linear, like DB power levels, we still have a lot of guys with higher stats than Arceus and the CT

i mean for the physical special split, just make the pokemon with low base attack have low striking strength, meanwhile pokemon with high attack have both ap and striking strength

but base stats inherently are annoying so idk

 

[Mickey1940]

so wait... what's the conclusion

or are we just stuck

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

or are we just stuck

Considering that from the staff I called, only one voted (for option 1), well...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

They get their 2-A from their true forms

Uh, when has this ever been a thing?

 

[Mickey1940]

Considering that from the staff I called, only one voted (for option 1), well...

to nerf the gen 8 legendaries?

 

[Arceus0x]

to nerf the gen 8 legendaries?

Yes

 

[Arceus0x]

We ought to call Everything12 honestly he's so into 2-A Pokemon he has the arceus circle as his pfp half the time.

 

[Mickey1940]

Yes

wait

doesnt their 2A scaling come from upscaling from Leon and Raihan, of which Raihan could become a champion in any other region?

including the Gen 4 games, where Champion level trainers actually fight the creation trio in lore?

 

[Mickey1940]

Incorrect. It's the other way around. Leon is scaling to Eternatus because he considers Eternatus the strongest 'mon in Galar, which then we decided to extend that to the rental mons that battle Dynamax Dialga/Palkia. Raihan then downscales from Leon. The champions thing is merely for support.

oh then that's my bad

but wouldn't Leon's and Raihan's scaling to other champions make THEIR profiles impressive at all?

iirc a lot of the pokemon profiles havent been updated. How strong are champions treated on this wiki?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

oh then that's my bad

but wouldn't Leon's and Raihan's scaling to other champions make THEIR profiles impressive at all?

iirc a lot of the pokemon profiles havent been updated. How strong are champions treated on this wiki?

Nah, I was mistaken and deleted that comment. Misremembered the profiles. Leon it's upscaling from the rental mons that fight Dialga/Palkia, then Eternatus upscales.

However, the Raihan thing I would still say is supporting at best. We have nothing to gauge how he would compare to the Gen 4 champions, besides the rental 'mons. There's no "average champion level" besides upscaling from the strongest wild pkmn at least.

After Cal's thread tho, it greatly varies. Gen 1 Red/Blue/Elite 4 could scale from the legendary birds (edit: hell, you can upscale them even earlier, from the moment you get Surf, which is after Koga). Gen 2 could upscale from Lugia/Ho-Oh (which also upscales Kanto). Gen 3 upscales from Groudon/Kyogre in Ruby/Sapphire, but in Emerald you don't fight them until post-game and are treated as unstoppable besides calling for Rayquaza (so upscaling is iffy there, despite the fact you can technically catch Ray before the Elite 4). Gen 4 is were the things go off the chart, with direct fights against Dialga/Palkia in D/P, and Origin Forme Giratina in Platinum. Etc etc

 

[Mickey1940]

Nah, I was mistaken and deleted that comment. Misremembered the profiles. Leon it's upscaling from the rental mons that fight Dialga/Palkia, then Eternatus upscales.

However, the Raihan thing I would still say is supporting at best. We have nothing to gauge how he would compare to the Gen 4 champions, besides the rental 'mons. There's no "average champion level" besides upscaling from the strongest wild pkmn at least.

After Cal's thread tho, it greatly varies. Gen 1 Red/Blue/Elite 4 could scale from the legendary birds. Gen 2 could upscale from Lugia/Ho-Oh (which also upscales Kanto). Gen 3 upscales from Groudon/Kyogre in Ruby/Sapphire, but in Emerald you don't fight them until post-game and are treated as unstoppable besides calling for Rayquaza (so upscaling is iffy there, despite the fact you can technically catch Ray before the Elite 4). Gen 4 is were the things go off the chart, with direct fights against Dialga/Palkia in D/P, and Origin Forme Giratina in Platinum. Etc etc

have any of the champions or champion-level trainers fought each other before through crossovers?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

have any of the champions or champion-level trainers fought each other before through crossovers?

In B/W 2 during the World Tournament, which they already have a key for. Iffy to scale Raihan to that, tho.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah unless I’m mistaken, Sword and Shield is too self contained when it comes to champions comparing to each other.

Game Leon isn’t like the anime where it outright has a world tournament via the Masters 8.

If anything the only thing you could do is say Leon and Raihan upscale from or are at least comparable to Cynthia, since Gen 4 has her =< the Protag who, before facing her, fought the CT. Meanwhile, the Dmaxed versions of them are fought by rental mons, who both Raihan and Leon are superior to.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Meanwhile, the Dmaxed versions of them are fought by rental mons, who both Raihan and Leon are superior to.

This is the exact thing the OP is revising.

And I 100% disagree with arbitrarily scaling to Cynthia just cuz. What part of the champion quote refers to her? At the absolute best, it would be a "possibly", but I wouldn't support such. Nothing connects that quote to Cynthia or any specific champion at all.

 

[Mickey1940]

Yeah unless I’m mistaken, Sword and Shield is too self contained when it comes to champions comparing to each other.

Game Leon isn’t like the anime where it outright has a world tournament via the Masters 8.

If anything the only thing you could do is say Leon and Raihan upscale from or are at least comparable to Cynthia, since Gen 4 has her =< the Protag who, before facing her, fought the CT. Meanwhile, the Dmaxed versions of them are fought by rental mons, who both Raihan and Leon are superior to.

isn't cynthia 2A for fighting the player after they fought giratina

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is the exact thing the OP is revising.

And I 100% disagree with arbitrarily scaling to Cynthia just cuz. What part of the champion quote refers to her? At the absolute best, it would be a "possibly", but I wouldn't support such. Nothing connects that quote to Cynthia or any specific champion at all.

No I know.

That’s why I said “if anything”

Personally I’m split, because the rental mons shouldn’t be game mechanics or anything. On the other hand, yeah as you said, it’s kinda arbitrary.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Personally I’m split, because the rental mons shouldn’t be game mechanics or anything. On the other hand, yeah as you said, it’s kinda arbitrary.

I'm kind of the same with the rental stuff, yeah.