ERROR!Sans VS Flandre Scarlet

[HyperSsonic]

Ok

 

[StrymULTRA]

Found this versio in OBW, is it fine?

 

[HyperSsonic]

That seems pretty good

 

[StrymULTRA]

Basing on that I can clearly say that Error one shots the verse, it has scans to provide at least his 2-A and Immensurable speed rating

 

[Planck69]

Found this versio in OBW, is it fine?

I have some problems with the 2-A justification and A LOT of problems with Low 1-C and Immeasurable speed. P&A seems fine, more or less.

 

[HyperSsonic]

Hey why was dimensional tiering given the axe?

 

[StrymULTRA]

2-A rating is because it's explained a LOT of times that he'll destroy all the AUs, that are confirmed to be a 2-A cosmology from the scans there.

Immensurable speed is because still in the 2-A reasoning one of the scans says that Ink!sans exists outside time and space and can reach immediately any timeline, and Error is his par in stats

 

[Planck69]

Hey why was dimensional tiering given the axe?

It was, for lack of better words, mathematically BS.

 

[HyperSsonic]

oof

 

[Planck69]

2-A rating is because it's explained a LOT of times that he'll destroy all the AUs, that are confirmed to be a 2-A cosmology from the scans there.
Immensurable speed is because still in the 2-A reasoning one of the scans says that Ink!sans exists outside time and space and can reach immediately any timeline, and Ink is his par in stats

Did it specifically say he'd destroy them all in one-shot? And being able to move to other timelines isn't an Immeasurable feat at all, you could do that with MFTL+ and good enough range. Same with the Anti-Void stuff, that doesn't even qualify for Infinite anymore.

 

[StrymULTRA]

2-A rating is because it's explained a LOT of times that he'll destroy all the AUs, that are confirmed to be a 2-A cosmology from the scans there.
Immensurable speed is because still in the 2-A reasoning one of the scans says that Ink!sans exists outside time and space and can reach immediately any timeline, and Error is his par in stats

>Immensurable speed is because still in the 2-A reasoning one of the scans says that Ink!sans exists outside time and space and can reach immediately any timeline, and Error is his par in stats

 

[Planck69]

Again, that doesn't even qualify for Infinite speed.

 

[HyperSsonic]

That is kinda true since the difference between immeasurable and infinite. is that immeasurable is impossible to measure while infinite is indefinably large, countlessly great; immense.

 

[Planck69]

Existing outside time and space is no longer a feat for Infinite speed unless it's made clear that this level of speed is necessary to move in it, much less Immeasurable speed. That needs one to be able to move anywhere and anywhen through time with raw speed, or possess multiple temporal dimensions.

 

[HyperSsonic]

I mean from everything I've seen some versions of Sans can barely move in between the aus (outisde space and time)

 

[RinneItachi]

Late, but I really suggest against using Undertale AU characters for battles. Their showings or statements are usually very vague, and they are somewhat inconsistent. Aside from cases where an AU character has concrete capabilities, with little to no inconsistencies, it'd be hard to make a semi-cohesive battle involving them. As for Error Vs. Flandre, well, Error only has some statements that'd be remotely noteworthy here, but they're either vague or don't fit well with the new tiering system. Although, if we go off of Underverse, Error does have a solid feat of casually destroy the multiverse in one move, but I don't think Jael intended for it to be multiversal+, based on the actual scene. I would say Error is, at peak, Low 2-C, with no hax that could pose much of a threat to Flandre, while Flandre could easily kill him. Error also has no actual speed showings that would allow him to prevent a blitz. And Flandre has low-godly, which Error has no counter for. Using the original Error Sans, I'd say Flandre stomps, most likely. Although this thread gave me a few ideas.

Edit: Also wanna note that in the canon, original Errortale comic, Error struggled against Underswap Papyrus in direct combat, while also using Underswap Sans as both a hostage, and fighter against Papyrus. Underswap Papyrus isn't that far beyond classic Sans, who would be fodder to a very large portion of Touhou, let alone Flandre.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They're on the FCOC wiki for a reason

 

[Planck69]

Although, if we go off of Underverse, Error does have a solid feat of casually destroy the multiverse in one move, but I don't think Jael intended for it to be multiversal+, based on the actual scene.

We'd still consider it a 2-B to 2-A feat since the feat takes precedent over the author's intent. You could argue that it's an outlier unless he was amped or something but this is still a valid feat.

 

[RinneItachi]

We'd still consider it a 2-B to 2-A feat since the feat takes precedent over the author's intent. You could argue that it's an outlier unless he was amped or something but this is still a valid feat.

When I mentioned the author intent, I also meant to imply it's an outlier. Error has never performed an on screen feat of even remotely similar power in the entirety of Underverse, and is only stated to have destroyed universes occasionally in other cases, even then, we don't know how the process is done. Iirc, it's actually implied that he affects the universes code, corrupting it, and basically deletes it, possibly overtime, but doesn't destroy it with his actual, normal AP. It's also possible that Jael wasn't counting what would be considered universes as actually universes in the sense of a feat, since Error destroyed papers representing universes (26:47). I do know that feats like this are usually still considered legit, and that the feat still takes precedence over Jael's intent, I just wanted to mention it. Oh, and as for how impressive the feat would be in the tiering system, I'd guess 2-B. To clarify, each "Alternate Universe" actually counts as a multiverse, aside from AU's taking place in alternate timelines of the original universe, Undertale, which simply count as alternate timelines within the Undertale multiverse. Every unique AU separate from Undertale has it's own AU's, thousands of them according to Ink Sans (25:30). Since there are currently 350 documented AU's, this would mean at least a 6 digit number of universes that Error destroyed. Again though, this feat can easily be considered an outlier.

 

[Planck69]

Wouldn't each AU's AUs also scale to the hundreds to thousands of timelines in canon as a result of Flowey's constant resets? I can see it hitting the several millions range. And it would be an outlier if Error struggled with much lower feats or had proven to be unable to perform the same feat again. Otherwise he and everyone else would scale to 2-B and-

We should probably take this to our walls or FC/OC.

 

[RinneItachi]

Not every AU has Flowey's abuse of time manipulation, but yes, it could definitely increase the amount. Although I still think it would be better to just use Inks statement of thousands for a lowballed hundreds of thousands of timelines in the entire Undertale multiverse, if we don't use the infinity statement, which is still pretty solid 2-B stuff, although not countless or anything crazy, but it'd be enough to one shot Flandre, when talking about the original point of the post, although Error still gets blitzed and can't negate low-godly, or her just destroying his core. He somewhat struggles against versions of Sans that shouldn't be too far beyond classic/canon Sans, and as I said before, was having some trouble against Underswap Papyrus (5:38), in the original Errortale comic, who, again, is not far beyond classic/canon Sans, and only managed to pin down and almost defeat US Papyrus when angered, before his remaining emotions towards his Papyrus stopped him from finishing US Papyrus off. All of that, alongside only vague, possibly overtime, possibly hax based Low 2-C feats, having never, in any other situation, performed a 2-B feat, and I think it's pretty safe to call the feat an outlier. Error Sans is only Low 2-C at best, and even then, that's a highball.

Depends on how much longer you think the discussion will go on. I don't mind continuing it elsewhere though, and I've never talked on a message wall, so that'd be interesting.

 

[QuasiYuri]

One AU alone actually have infinite timelines based on some comics.

Also to support Low 1-C Error: Ink made the Doodle Sphere which encompasses every AUs; Error is an Out-Code character which is completely detached from the AUs, and he's constantly hunting Core!Frisk which is stated by its author to be 6/7D, with Error and Ink being one dimension below (and it's not like they're not above non-out code beings: in most case they're either toying with them or not wanting to go at full power).

 

[Planck69]

Being stated to be 6 or 7-D on it's own doesn't warrant Low 1-C.

Existing outside something =/= transcending it.

I can see 2-A from this but higher seems iffy.

 

[RinneItachi]

Agree with what Planck said, but also, CORE Frisk was stated to be 7.5 dimensional by it's author, don't know what to make of that, though. But yeah, with the new and better tiering system, just being 6th dimensional is no longer considered enough for a tier of that level, unless it's blatantly obvious that higher dimensional beings are practically infinitely above lower dimensional beings in the verse. And considering the fact that CORE Frisk, a 7.5 dimensional being, actually has physical strength below that of an average human, with literally no directly offensive abilities as stated by their author (only being capable of destroying the Anti-Error's by manipulating their components while they were being created), and Error Sans in the Anti-Void (where he's supposedly a 6th dimensional being) still occasionally having trouble against other Sans' who should be 3D beings with finite 3D power, and not being capable of just destroying the multiverse as a 6D being...yeah, not looking so good.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Core's bodies are weak yeah, but it doesn't really prevent him for creating timeline and suchlike. It's more like avatars which are weaker than the essence.

However I don't remember Error struggling against regular Sans(es)' since even Ink is stated to hold back to not mess AUs, and he still can stomp others Sans.

Btw, wouldn't Ink's powers fit for Low 1-C? Since it's litteraly what's used by the Creators, who have a reality-fiction difference with AUs.

 

[Planck69]

Has Ink shown to affect reality in a similar way though?

 

[RinneItachi]

I don't recall CORE creating timelines, and unless it's shown or stated that the creation scales to CORE's AP, they're still weaker than an average human. And wdym the essence, I know CORE is omnipresent and can only manifest avatar's, but I don't think anything implies the true CORE Frisk is superior to it's avatars, in regards to power. I also don't think the creator would directly say CORE Frisk has no offensive capabilities, if their AP was universal+, if not higher.

Error struggles against regular Sans' fairly commonly. I won't deny that he's usually toying with them, but as I've stated and linked before, the original Errortale comic, which should be considered the most accurate source of info, has Error Sans struggling against US Papyrus, before getting serious. The fact that he can even have some trouble against 3D beings with low level finite 3D power, regardless of whether or not he's holding back, heavily suggests that Error is also 3D with finite 3D power. And I don't recall him showing any actual impressive feats in the Anti-Void, let alone anything that would place him at a Low 1-C level. The only thing I recall worth noting, is that he directly states "Time loses meaning here pretty fast", but this still doesn't qualify for infinite speed, as it implies that time does exist there, it just doesn't flow naturally. Underswap Sans can also move in it just fine.

Maybe, but his powers don't scale to AP, I'm pretty sure. And I think they are reliant on his paint brush.

 

[RinneItachi]

Although, if cross-verse summoning was allowed, CORE Frisk could have a solid 2-B key for summoning Giratina against Error Sans in a joke comic, which the author said was, while stupid, completely plausible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Core created the Omega Timeline as stated by the author. Also what I mean is that Core is weak physically, but not really in term of power.

I don't recall Error Sans struggling against US Papyrus, do you have the comic/page for this please? He's pretty constantly overpowering even "OP" Sanses and he's higher than beings that completely stomp US Papyrus (X!Chara, I'm looking at you).

His paintbrush is just used to concentrate his own powers, which are the essence of his existence so his AP should scale to it. Also his author pretty much stated that: He made the Doodle Sphere, fight beings that can change the scenario of AUs, and that he saw AUs as just stories.

"At least 2-A" or "possibly Low 1-C" doesn't like a bad alternative imo.

 

[Planck69]

I guess that's fine. Lol, we should be discussing this on FC/OC.

 

[RinneItachi]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Omega Timeline, but was it stated how they did that, or was it just said that they did? Without context, it doesn't seem very reliable. I get that, my point was that their AP is still below human level. I do agree that they're fairly haxed, but the fact that they're so weak, they can't even lift a small rock, despite being a 7.5 dimensional being, is just strange, and suggests that being higher dimensional in this case doesn't equate to a higher tier, let alone a position anywhere in tier 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYRWUZP9xRs (5:38). Yes, he overpowers, and blatantly stomps most versions of Sans, but you're missing my point. I'm not saying he's equal to, or even comparable to them, I'm saying that if they, 3D beings with finite 3D power, can actually make him use even some slight amount of effort, that automatically means he shouldn't be considered to even have low 4D power, which would be infinitely superior to the levels of said characters, let alone something ridiculous like 2-A, or even Low 1-C.

Can I see those statements, for context? Iirc, the Doodle Sphere contains every universe, which would include at least hundreds of thousands, to potentially infinite universes, so that a solid 2-A feat if accurate, I think. The scenario, as in plot? If the context is that Ink viewed them as something infinitely lower than himself, then maybe it's noteworthy.

Honestly, from what I'm seeing, this just looks like a bunch of inconsistent things thrown together. Some fights, statements, or feats try to balance Error and Ink, others try to portray them as gods for Undertale AU standards, etc.. This is really why I don't like debating about Undertale AU characters.

 

[RinneItachi]

Actually, I just went back to the official Error comic (Ask Error ), and realized that Error directly stated he tried to destroy Underswap, then stopped specifically because of US Papyrus.

Anonymous asked:

Isn't underswap a universe that shouldn't exist? Why don't you delete them too?

"I tried! I almost eradicated that abomination of a universe!"

"But..."

"When I was there...I encountered a bit of a problem." (Underswap Papyrus is shown on panel)

"...I'll deal with Underswap later..." (Error Sans has sweat dripping down his face)

If anything, this pretty much confirms that Underswap Papyrus can fight with Error, if the actual fight wasn't enough.

Also, this implies that he can only destroy universes after clearing out the people in it. Which is, for some reason, how people think Chara destroys universes. So...

 

[RinneItachi]

Have been reading through it still, and Error, explaining the multiverse, said "near infinite amount of alternate existences", he's referring to alternate universes. So we have hundreds of thousands to potentially millions or something similar, near infinite, and infinite. I'm sure there's much more I'm forgetting or missing. Yeah, inconsistencies everywhere. This topic should probably just be dropped, and however strong these characters are can be left up to interpretation, but they shouldn't be used in battles. I know everybody stopped talking a while ago, aside from me, but I just wanna end this, since I don't think we'll ever reach a solid conclusion, otherwise.

Edit: Error goes on to say that the number is so high, it's basically impossible to count them all, then goes on to say that every decision someone makes, creates a new universe, and that every conceivable version of every person exists somewhere. I could go on and on about this, but I think my point still stands.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Aren't comics not on Crayonqueen blog non-canon to the character?

 

[RinneItachi]

Aren't comics not on Crayonqueen blog non-canon to the character?

I never heard that. I know CrayonQueen is the same person as Lover of Piggies. And in what I'm seeing, there's even the comic for Error's origin, on the same page as Error Vs. Underswap, and everything else I've mentioned. So I'm pretty sure it's canon. Regardless, even if that's the case, I don't retract my point. Trying to make sense of everything for each relevant AU character, to an extent where we can make accurate profiles and the like for them, let alone Error, would be between extremely hard, to impossible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It seems fine then, though somewhat incoherent with some parts. For example Error needing to clear people from an AU to destroy it (which isn't really a question of being able, but more of wanting) is clearly contradicted in The Truce and Underverse where we see X!Chara being able to destroy the AU without first clearing the characters.

However Error doesn't seems to fear Papyrus in term of power or anything, but more in relation to his trauma; which seems more coherent with the character and his actions.

Also higher D beings using efforts (even when holding back) against 3D beings doesn't necessary mean that it's an anti-feat for their tier. For example K3 characters weakened themselves to absurb levels to fight Eastern Expedition, but we don't consider them being tier 1 as innacurate (it's a shitty example cuz I can't think of a good one rn, but it's not the only one).

I remember comics saying the same about the Multiverse and then saying that it's infinitely branching; it's like how's comp DB's Multiverse, which would give 2-A.

I do think that giving a tier to Out-code characters is possible, mainly from using what each author made (mainly Dream/Nightmare, Error/Fresh, Xtale, and Ink's one); otherwise there's just soo many content with some being just weird fanfic without any real plot.

 

[RinneItachi]

Yes, contradicted, because they're inconsistencies. And nothing implies that he simply "wants" to kill everyone before erasing it. There are multiple things implying that Error must kill every Underground person before eradicating a universe, it wasn't just in regards to Underswap.

I agree with that, but Papyrus did still fight with an Error that was somewhat trying. And it's implied that Underswap Papyrus may have severely harmed him with his final attack, which was supposed to be a killing blow.

If Error was even at the bare minimum of 4D power, he would be infinitely superior to Underswap Papyrus, but still needs to try against him, and can potentially be harmed by him, I'd say that's pretty blatant evidence he isn't on that level, let alone beyond it, in any case.

Yes, and some Undertale AU comics say different things. Thus proving the point that it's inconsistent.

If we only used the original versions for each character, that'd be the best way to do it, but we would need to treat them all as if they were in their own version of the Undertale AU multiverse, as many authors disagree with each other on the multiverse, and the power of certain characters. If we do it in a way that completely separates the AU characters from each other, meaning we don't use feats or statements from one author's character, and apply it to another author's character. That is the only way this can be done, from the looks of it. And even then, it may still be difficult. Which is why I keep saying this should just end. There are cases where this can be maneuvered around, like the SCP verse pages, where we use "Article Canon" and "Extended Canon", but it simply can't work here because of the numerous inconsistencies. If we really wanna make an Error Sans profile, I suggest we purely use anything made by CrayonQueen, and count absolutely nothing else for Error Sans. From what I'm seeing, that comes out like this:

Attack Potency: At least Small Building level, likely far higher (can easily defeat characters who should be comparable to the canon Sans), possibly Low 2-C (is capable of destroying entire universes, however the exact process is unknown)

Speed: At least Supersonic, likely far higher (should be much higher than the canon Sans)

As for powers and abilities, he should have all of canon Sans' abilities, plus BFR (can send opponents to the Anti-Void), universal/dimensional travel (via portial creation), and string manipulation (which can grab souls).

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that Low 2-C would be a big lowball, especially considering that characters comparable to Error have feats above this. And I mean, he did one shot multiples universes created by Ink, so it's not like the process is unknown.

However I agree that doing a real profile is kinda impossible, but I think that only using the works commonly considered as the "main ones" should be fine (Underverse, Xtale, Epictale, Error/Fresh stuff, Ink stuff, Dreamtale, Underfell) . It's kinda like SCP but with some inconsistencies like you said (even if imo, SCP shouldn't have anything but the canon on this wiki because of "extended canon" being basically fanfic anyone can add, but that's another thing).

 

[RinneItachi]

Is any of that in the original Error comic? If not, it can't be applied. Error should just be Low 2-C at best for vague universal destruction, which is the most consistent thing for him when it comes to tier 2 stuff, including in his original comic.

True. Then there isn't much to discuss here. If we actually wanna make or change profiles on FC/OC Battles Wiki, we should go there, like Planck asked, before.

 

[HyperSsonic]

I mean Error in the basics could have been without any effort to destroy a Alternate universe. Before underestimating this feat, the Alternate universe in Undertale au was not a universe It is even closer to a alternative multiverse. And in the reverse vacuum the error is able to erase all the parallel universes, which makes it somewhere in the 6D or at least 5D.