Edo Period's Finest - Hajime Kashimo vs Ryu Ishigori

[Hiiilt]

Ryu cooks this guy.

Let’s start off with the idea that firstly, Ryu does have the AP advantage. His statement of having the highest CE output was made at 11:28, and Kashimo was already in the CG at this time, since at 12:00 they’re still planning to enter, specifically having Hakari encounter him. Important to note that this Kashimo barely sustains any physical injuries from Hakari, despite not only his sandpaper CE trait, but from his immense output. Therefore, in terms of output, we can conclude:

Ryu > Kashimo ~ Hakari.

This doubles in the fact that Ryu can just easily ignore his CE trait, making it useless. This isn’t to mention the massive range advantage Ryu has, being able to launch blasts like this, ones that home in on him, etc. Kashimo’s only wincon is Lightning Charge, which is a valid one, but Ryu has his own in his Domain Expansion. 120% Ryu cooks, and Kashimo’s only defense is HWB, which he absolutely needs to keep up with at all times, effectively rendering discharge useless since he can’t punch Ryu.

And yes, you do need to keep your hands clasped together, the panels where it was up after Reggie’s hands weren’t together clearly isn’t consistent with what Sukuna did, he kept his hands together for 3 chapters straight. Voting Ryu.

Ryu fra

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

But Millyrock laid out Ryu's win cons pretty well.

Also the HWB point, Sukuna bringing up how he needs to keep his hands and mouth to keep using HWB should be proof enough the hands gotta stay together. Even if I agree HWB doesn't need your hands clasped constantly, We're still shown Reggie got hit and lost HWB. So there's two options:

HWB requires your hands constantly clasped to keep it up. Or HWB can be deactivated from getting attacked disrupting it.
And I've addressed how both get countered even if you still disagree. Just like Jogo can use his ct in Domain, not a sure hit attack, or just how Megumi's domain wasn't imbued with a ct and could use his ct itself, Ryu would see HWB and know "Damn let me just use my ct itself".

This is just ignoring the arguments at this point. Even with Kashimo using HWB he can still damage Ryu enough to the point he would destroy his domain like Sukuna and Mahito. Also arguments is literally Contradicting when Ryu keeps the distance he wouldn't have the opportunity to spam domain
When he spams domain he would be in the range of the lightning discharge.
Also Kashimo can trace back the Lightining discharge from his staff to destroy outer barriers.
Gonna be real with you. You and other are keep bringing HWB arguments when Kashimo Wincons doesn't even stands on that. Ryu also lacks stamina to keep up his GB above 5mins canonically.

For more read what I said here

it doesn't matter as Lightning Discharge doesn't need hand signs to fire at Ryu. If he uses DE, he would be in the range of Kashimo. Also, make up your mind: if you say Ryu would maintain his distance and keep firing GB, he wouldn't be able to use DE. If he lets Kashimo get close, he would get hit by Lightning Discharge, so both DE and keeping distance strategies won't work in favor of Ryu. Long-distance GB shots can be dodged, unlike Lightning Discharge, which traces positive and negative charges in CE. We do know the homing attack of Ryu only works where he can visually see, not that it's going to do anything when the opponent hides, like Yuta going under the bridge and running around and dodging it. Ryu, with all of his GB blasts, lasts around 5 minutes more or less, while Kashimo's can keep fighting JP Hakari for around 2 DE, so stamina and efficiency go to Kashimo.

Kashimo can just trace back his lightining discharge from the staff to break Ryu's domain from outside. Which would just drain Ryu's CE.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Ryu fra

This is just ignoring the arguments at this point. Even with Kashimo using HWB he can still damage Ryu enough to the point he would destroy his domain like Sukuna and Mahito. Also arguments is literally Contradicting when Ryu keeps the distance he wouldn't have the opportunity to spam domain
When he spams domain he would be in the range of the lightning discharge.
Also Kashimo can trace back the Lightining discharge from his staff to destroy outer barriers.
Gonna be real with you. You and other are keep bringing HWB arguments when Kashimo Wincons doesn't even stands on that. Ryu also lacks stamina to keep up his GB above 5mins canonically.

For more read what I said here

I would like you to read others Arguments too if you could.

Ryu supporters not addressing the issue of

• Kashimo dodging GB when Ryu keeps his distance and fires from longer distance
• Kashimo can destroy the outer barriers with lightning discharges
• Kashimo can one shot Ryu when he uses DE due to being in the range
• Ryu has feat for continuous spam of GB and DE only for 5mins while Kashimo was continuously fighting JP Hakari and used an explosion after 2 DE Which is 4:11s *2 which is 8:22s. In other words stamina and efficiency goes to Kashimo. So Kashimo outlasts him.

So mind pointing out which Wincons of Ryu has highest chances than Kashimo's? Higher AP means nothing when it wouldn't land on Kashimo.

 

[Hiiilt]

I would like you to read others Arguments too if you could.

Ryu supporters not addressing the issue of

• Kashimo dodging GB when Ryu keeps his distance and fires from longer distance
• Kashimo can destroy the outer barriers with lightning discharges
• Kashimo can one shot Ryu when he uses DE due to being in the range
• Ryu has feat for continuous spam of GB and DE only for 5mins while Kashimo was continuously fighting JP Hakari and used an explosion after 2 DE Which is 4:11s *2 which is 9:22s. In other words stamina and efficiency goes to Kashimo. So Kashimo outlasts him.

So mind pointing out which Wincons of Ryu has highest chances than Kashimo's? Higher AP means nothing when it wouldn't land on Kashimo.

makes sense, i'm changing my vote to kashimo

 

[Quantu]

4-2 currently in favour of Kashimo!

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Kashimo solos

Should we count your vote to Kashimo also?

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Should we count your vote to Kashimo also?

sure, If you want, you can think that I said "Kashimo fra" here

 

[Arkenis]

This is just ignoring the arguments at this point. Even with Kashimo using HWB he can still damage Ryu enough to the point he would destroy his domain like Sukuna and Mahito. Also arguments is literally Contradicting when Ryu keeps the distance he wouldn't have the opportunity to spam domain
When he spams domain he would be in the range of the lightning discharge.
Also Kashimo can trace back the Lightining discharge from his staff to destroy outer barriers.
Gonna be real with you. You and other are keep bringing HWB arguments when Kashimo Wincons doesn't even stands on that. Ryu also lacks stamina to keep up his GB above 5mins canonically.

We've already been over this... HWB needs to be kept up, it can't if they're getting attacked or they break hand sign. He won't be damaging anything in domain. And you really aren't following the point of these arguments: It is not contradicting if Ryu keeps his distance, he has the opportunity to do domain when Kashimo gets in close, which is several meters and likely higher. There's nothing contradicted in the argument.

You understand this lightning discharge requires Kashimo to get several hits in to charge up the shot right? SBA range is 4km or in our case Ryu has hundreds of meters so Kashimo is starting at a major disadvantage where Ryu can spam GB like he does in character. And saying he'll dodge is funny, Yuta still got hit several times and had to do acrobats, and trick Ryu to get in close.
I'll be real with you, the only reason this HWB point is still being talked about is because you're so adamant on arguing it, just drop it. I've offered several counters and we've gone back and forth on how it works and proven its not how you're arguing it to be. When did Ryu struggle with stamina above five minutes? After the domains break, Ryu's still ready to fight and can always put out the same amount of power, power still above Rika's resupplied ce.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

ok this whole point with range and GB is pointless because its shown time and time again that anyone on the same scale of speed, strength and durability as yuta in base (which kashimo should be above for all intense and purposes due to him being faster, stronger and more durable than hakari in JP)

I mean here I've compiled each time Ryu uses a GB

yuta has shown time and time again that it is not just possible to dodge granite blast with little to no difficulty but he also managed to dodge multiple scatter shots without being hit once and kashimo is on this same scale of speed and reaction time (above it since base yuta was dodging them pretty easily) and the only times that GB actually did hit yuta or anyone else was either when dodging wasn't possible due to being mid air (which yuta still managed to deflect mind you) or by taking the person of guard due to them focusing on another opponent (and even then rika managed to turn around and deflect it same goes for yuta in the end of the fight) and this is a 1v1 there is no taking off guard here.

Also when it gets to close quarters Ryu loses on the spot because he doesn't start spaming GB in CQs

and this is going to be an issue for Ryu since while he does have the output he lacks quanitity which was pointed out by kashimo

to be the reason as to why kinji was able to flat out ignore his cursed trait and while ryu will be able to resist it he won't be able to ignore it like kashimo which puts him at a massive disadvantage in CQs against kashimo and the moment he takes just a few hits this will happen

which will end either how it did with hakari and Ryu loses an arm or with his head poping like an over ripe water-melon in either case leading to his loss and considering that in CQs kashimo will have a clear advantage due his more CQs focuse fighting style, expirence and CE trait Ryu will lose in no time at all the moment the distance between them is closed which it will be

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will respond soon.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

We've already been over this... HWB needs to be kept up, it can't if they're getting attacked or they break hand sign.

I Already Said Multiple times this isn't even his only wincons.

He won't be damaging anything in domain.

Already sent the scan Kashimo using Lightning without using his hand and he always goes for the head. Ryu gets cooked the moment he activates his domain.

And you really aren't following the point of these arguments: It is not contradicting if Ryu keeps his distance, he has the opportunity to do domain when Kashimo gets in close,

When he gets close Kashimo would have 2 shots of Lightning Discharge read below for why he would have that. So DE wouldn't be doing anything to Kashimo even if his hands are busy with HWB he can still use one of his shots of lightining without hand signs

which is several meters and likely higher. There's nothing contradicted in the argument.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here.

You understand this lightning discharge requires Kashimo to get several hits in to charge up the shot right?

It's Headcanon. It never stated he needs to get hit by opponents to charge it up. He can charge one shot around 2min timeframe in his own. Narrative states he is the one who Manipulating charges and creating lightning not his opponents hitting him.
Also he has an already charged shot in his Staff. So thats 2 shots hittable if he wants

SBA range is 4km or in our case Ryu has hundreds of meters so Kashimo is starting at a major disadvantage where Ryu can spam GB like he does in character.

SBA would be hundreds of meters and Ryu would get his CE depleted due to energy blast until Kashimo gets close to him.

And saying he'll dodge is funny, Yuta still got hit several times and had to do acrobats, and trick Ryu to get in close.

Brother Yuta got hit when he was too close to Ryu. Also its not got hit directly. Yuta was able to block them. Kashimo has staff he should be able to deflect the close range blasts. Yuta dodged long range shots that's a fact.

I'll be real with you, the only reason this HWB point is still being talked about is because you're so adamant on arguing it, just drop it. I've offered several counters and we've gone back and forth on how it works and proven its not how you're arguing it to be.

I'm gonna be real with you didn't addressed all of my point so I don't take it as what you said as proof. but okay because that's not even necessary if he has hands signs on or not.

When did Ryu struggle with stamina above five minutes?

I said around 5mins it may be 6 or 7.
Let's go Ryu spams few blasts in the beginning before Yuta activated his ring. Later after the domain fight He was able to fire one blasts on Uro/Kuro , One blast to intercept Rikas blast, One blast against Yuta again one blast on Rika? May be 4-5 blasts. You think he was fighting for another 5mins after Domain?
Around 5mins is rough estimated. If we go by the same logic Kashimo was fighting someone else before he started Fighting panda. Then he spammed lightning on panda then Hakari comes in with JP he also fought him for one chapter then again fought Base Hakari then 4:11s Jackpot Hakari, Then 4:11s JP Hakari then big bang explosion. So obviously even if you give Ryu ten minutes of stamina against Yuta level opponents Kashimo should have more Logically speaking.

After the domains break, Ryu's still ready to fight and can always put out the same amount of power, power still above Rika's resupplied ce.

Putting out same output ≠ Same storage

 

[speedster352]

Kashimo fra

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I mean here I've compiled each time Ryu uses a GB

You’ve seem to cut a fair amount of context in these. If we agree that Kashimo ~ Yuta in stats, well, despite the fact it came from miles away, and Yuta even noticed it, he literally couldn’t escape this blast. Importing to note that unlike Kashimo, Yuta has direct statements of reducing any and all damage to a minimum, and even despite that, Ryu deduces he’s been using RCT to heal from GB. Kashimo just outright doesn’t have the defenses nor healing to survive GB, so this is a moot point.

and this is going to be an issue for Ryu since while he does have the output he lacks quanitity which was pointed out by kashimo

Bit of an odd claim, Ryu can unleash a Domain Expansion, one of the most taxing techniques to ever utilize on your CE quantity, and then still charge a max output blast capable of overpowering Yuta’s, then fire one more. That is a tremendous amount of CE, far greater than what Kashimo has shown, so that’s not really working in his favor either way.

CQC legit just isn’t in favor for Kashimo, considering he can literally blow people away, and this is someone with far more CE than Kashimo, and who’s reducing his damage to the absolute minimum. This isn’t even mentioning the fact that at his weakest, low CE, used domain, literal skull cracked open, he can one-shot a relatively healthy Awakened Rika, who even normal Rika Ryu considered ~ to Yuta. I just see no reason why Ryu doesn’t punch through this guy.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

You’ve seem to cut a fair amount of context in these. If we agree that Kashimo ~ Yuta in stats, well, despite the fact it came from miles away, and Yuta even noticed it, he literally couldn’t escape this blast.

dude, the blast already fired and we see yuta turning around last second (hence the illuminated pannel) this goes into the taken off guard category that I've mentioned cuse later we see that yuta doesn't get hit once if he is focusing on ryu with the exeption of losing his hand due to him punching ryu in the head, every other time he either flat out dodges all the blasts coming his way or deflects them when dodging isn't an option.

Importing to note that unlike Kashimo, Yuta has direct statements of reducing any and all damage to a minimum, and even despite that, Ryu deduces he’s been using RCT to heal from GB. Kashimo just outright doesn’t have the defenses nor healing to survive GB, so this is a moot point.

yeah and uro after she got her hand ripped off, fired off a domain and was taken off guard also survived a GB, it wasn't just GB's yuta was healing from, he was flat out healing everything from kurorushi, uro and ryu it wasn't just everything single granite blast considering that we see him flat out tank a couple of those.

kashimo by the sheer fact that we scale him to the same level as yuta in base has the durability to withstand granite blasts, unless you want to argue that low 7-C is not actually gonna scale to anyone cept yuta and ryu (good luck with that)

Bit of an odd claim, Ryu can unleash a Domain Expansion, one of the most taxing techniques to ever utilize on your CE quantity

that doesn't say anythign about CE amount but about CE efficency, cuse look at sukuna the man opened 4 domains, used a massive amount of RCT and used 2 CT's and DA and he cut through barely half of his CE supply while yuta ran through his in not even a quarter of what sukuna did meaing his CE efficency is rather low in comperison, Ryu has never been stated to posses an overly massive amount of CE and saw yuta's as an absolutely massive quanitity so we can assume that he is nowhere near that amount (likely half of yuta's CE which isn't too much by special grade standards) the person that was able to mostly ignore kashimo's CE effect had more CE than yuta at the time so i'd say it is more than likely that Ryu won't be able to ignore it quite as well as mr. infinite RCT and CE, also if you may be caught up on my phrasing or something I am not saying that each hit is gonna stun Ryu more so that he will be effected by the stun for at least a split second and won't be able to ignore it like hakari in JP

, and then still charge a max output blast capable of overpowering Yuta’s, then fire one more. That is a tremendous amount of CE, far greater than what Kashimo has shown, so that’s not really working in his favor either way.

this is why it isn't linked to his CE amount but to his trait of maximum ouput dependless of CE or CT.

CQC legit just isn’t in favor for Kashimo, considering he can literally blow people away,

that happened literally one single time through the rest of the battle we never seen ryu just blast a person away like that.

and this is someone with far more CE than Kashimo, and who’s reducing his damage to the absolute minimum. This isn’t even mentioning the fact that at his weakest, low CE, used domain, literal skull cracked open, he can one-shot a relatively healthy Awakened Rika, who even normal Rika Ryu considered ~ to Yuta.

I just see no reason why Ryu doesn’t punch through this guy.

cuse he is low 7-C much like yuta my good man and consider this: JP hakari=> Yuta in stats, Kashimo> JP hakari in stats (I mean he was literally ripping him apart in their fight) so Ryu isn't one tapping kashimo nor is kashimo doing that to him with pure hands

 

[Arkenis]

I'll respond to the major points of this thread so I can just refer to it all when someone brings it up again.

Ryu's Domain

Kashimo's main counters to this is HWB and purposely keeping his staff away from the fight to connect its neg charge with a pos to destroy the domain from outside. The HWB point has been addressed already but just for a recap, HWB requires one to continue keeping their hands together to keep the HWB up, Sukuna says as much. In domain one can still attack with their ct itself, ignoring the sure hit counter of HWB, and also it would make the person vulnerable as they can't block attacks as easy without their hands. Kashimo's staff being able to destroy the domain is fine, but then this means Kashimo's lost an extra way of landing his lightning strikes on Ryu. Plus even after this, Ryu still can output the same ce blast as GB.

Kashimo's Charges

In order to do connecting pos and neg charges on a target Kashimo has to land hits on them to put the charge in their body. This is basic understanding of Kashimo's ability. The more hits he does the greater the charge becomes, this is why Kashimo goes "I've charged up enough", this is after Kashimo and Hakari engaged in h2h for a short time never once letting off a discharge randomly. So keep in mind when arguing the lightning strikes conditions.

Ryu's Stamina (Idek why this is brought up)

Ryu has never gotten his ce depleted in the entirety of the series from using GB. He's fired well over 5 GB in the Sendai fight alone, and he was fighting Uro, Kuro, and Dhruv, with them having to come to a stand off. More than this, Ryu seems to have relative ce reserves to Yuta. Able to fight him, Yuta's ce was drained from rct, Yuta gets his ce resupplied, Ryu fights him and Uro again, Ryu does Domain, still wants to fight Yuta and has output greater than Rika could handle. So Ryu's reserves seem to be just as great as Yuta's.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll respond to the major points of this thread so I can just refer to it all when someone brings it up again.

Ryu's Domain

Kashimo's main counters to this is HWB and purposely keeping his staff away from the fight to connect its neg charge with a pos to destroy the domain from outside. The HWB point has been addressed already but just for a recap, HWB requires one to continue keeping their hands together to keep the HWB up, Sukuna says as much. In domain one can still attack with their ct itself, ignoring the sure hit counter of HWB, and also it would make the person vulnerable as they can't block attacks as easy without their hands.

Kashimo is good with legs alone. Atleast he should be able to dodge the attacks and land one hits on Ryu who isn't all that good at CQC and release the lightning discharge.

Kashimo's staff being able to destroy the domain is fine, but then this means Kashimo's lost an extra way of landing his lightning strikes on Ryu. Plus even after this, Ryu still can output the same ce blast as GB.

If Ryu is on the range it's not hard for Kashimo to land his hits. Also he can track back the attack through alongwith his barriers. Lightining which is accumulated in the staff comes back to Kashimo. Ryu getting his stomach blasted would just die. Also Ryu don't know this technique so he shouldn't be able to tell what is happening. He would get off-guard nonetheless.

Kashimo's Charges

In order to do connecting pos and neg charges on a target Kashimo has to land hits on them to put the charge in their body. This is basic understanding of Kashimo's ability. The more hits he does the greater the charge becomes, this is why Kashimo goes "I've charged up enough", this is after Kashimo and Hakari engaged in h2h for a short time never once letting off a discharge randomly. So keep in mind when arguing the lightning strikes conditions.

This one is done without what you are saying. Also Kashimo here is manually doing the attack and locking the position "I will pinpoint" even if that's the case what stopping Kashimo to land one or 2 hits on Ryu if Ryu let's Kashimo closer? Anyway if Ryu keeps Kashimo away then Ryu would eventually gets tired of firing GB and his CE storage will run out.

 

[Quantu]

Bump. Let's wrap things up.

I'm voting Kashimo FRA so it's now grace.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Bump. Let's wrap things up.

I'm voting Kashimo FRA so it's now grace.

actually as an op I don't think you can vote.

However it has been over a week since the start of the thread and the lead is clearly in kashimos court and if there is no participation for over a week the thread goes into grace for what ever character was wining by a large margin, so this can be added in a bit of time.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

actually as an op I don't think you can vote.

However it has been over a week since the start of the thread and the lead is clearly in kashimos court and if there is no participation for over a week the thread goes into grace for what ever character was wining by a large margin, so this can be added in a bit of time.

OPs can vote in their own vs threads

 

[Sir_sun_man]

eh its grace one way or another