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Edelweiß vs Shiraori
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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Wdym?Moritzva said:
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Fear Hax is usually treated in fiction as "All enemies run away" which is decently contrary to what actually happens a lot of the time. Depending on the threat at hand.
Additionally, people always treat anyone being scared = fearhax.
Additionally, people always treat anyone being scared = fearhax.
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That's not the case though.
It's not like im treating "being scary = fear hax". I've explained the mechanics.
It's not like im treating "being scary = fear hax". I've explained the mechanics.
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Yeah, I'm voting Edel, her reasons seen more possible.
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Kumoko's clones are direct copies of Kumoko, including all of her powers and abilities, and stacked offensive abilities are directly multiplicative.
I don't understand the "knowing she will die" aspect of Edelweiss's powers. Does this mean that everyone who fights her will die, or does this mean that those who fight her are fated to die via Causality Manipulation? In either case Kumoko is known to fight her hardest if all escape routes are closed, her personality dictates if she has even a small chance of winning, she will gun for it. In this case, the Evil Eye of Serenity will allow her to remain calm while she fights at her absolute best ability, which includes literally an army of copies that all have the same strength and abilities as her.
Also, Kumoko has direct fear manipulation, as well, due to more Evil-Eye powers. Gravity Manipulation and even Death Manipulation are included in just her eyesight, and including her clones as well. Kumoko can also transfer her soul to any one of her clones at any point.
Would Eidelwiess's aura effect an immortal being that has faced her own death time and again before transcendence? In either case, due to their equal standing in power, I would think Kumoko would be highly resistant to fear effects from a being at equal levels of power, this goes vice-versa.
Also, if Edelweiss is a purely physical being, she can be disabled via injury. Kumoko's low-godly Regenerationn prevents this weakness, but I am not familiar with Edelweiss enough and her page does not indicate this aspect.
My vote is on Kumoko for sheer overwhelming force of numbers with equal offensive and defensive capabilities as herself.
I don't understand the "knowing she will die" aspect of Edelweiss's powers. Does this mean that everyone who fights her will die, or does this mean that those who fight her are fated to die via Causality Manipulation? In either case Kumoko is known to fight her hardest if all escape routes are closed, her personality dictates if she has even a small chance of winning, she will gun for it. In this case, the Evil Eye of Serenity will allow her to remain calm while she fights at her absolute best ability, which includes literally an army of copies that all have the same strength and abilities as her.
Also, Kumoko has direct fear manipulation, as well, due to more Evil-Eye powers. Gravity Manipulation and even Death Manipulation are included in just her eyesight, and including her clones as well. Kumoko can also transfer her soul to any one of her clones at any point.
Would Eidelwiess's aura effect an immortal being that has faced her own death time and again before transcendence? In either case, due to their equal standing in power, I would think Kumoko would be highly resistant to fear effects from a being at equal levels of power, this goes vice-versa.
Also, if Edelweiss is a purely physical being, she can be disabled via injury. Kumoko's low-godly Regenerationn prevents this weakness, but I am not familiar with Edelweiss enough and her page does not indicate this aspect.
My vote is on Kumoko for sheer overwhelming force of numbers with equal offensive and defensive capabilities as herself.
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Voting Kumoko for those reasons.
I doubt Kumoko's fear manip is gonna work, though.
I doubt Kumoko's fear manip is gonna work, though.
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Yeah, I was definitely considering that it would be a complete null fear wise on both sides. Kumoko had literally died multiple times before becoming a god, reduced to nothing but a flap of skin or less, and was even capable of escaping a soul-destruction attack that negated soul-resistance using a soul-transfer; both times making a complete recovery. This is before she even became a god, when she was gimmicking these tricks using the provided System. Transcending past that point, as she has, has allowed these powers to manifest easier than before, since she doesn't need to gimmick them, she just does them.
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I would also like to point out, furthermore, that Edelweiss has no direct way of attacking Kumoko's soul, as Edelweiss's soul manipulation seems to be purely based on her ability to manifest a weapon. (On top of this, Kumoko has retained her ability to protect her own soul deliberately) This means that Edelweiss would need kill Kumoko enough times to completely use up all her energy. Considering that the energy of Gods in Kumo Desu works similarly to Scion (Worm) from Parahumans, she would need to disintegrate Kumoko's real body enough times for her energy to run out... before getting physically wounded.
There is a severe disparity in their Regenerationn and stamina. Furthermore, back to the clones, Kumoko's clones allow for multiple avenues of accelerated thought and multi-tasking. Yeah... the more I think about it, the more Edelweiss is at a disadvantage, even with her individual power. On top of this, Kumoko's heart bursting due to Edelweiss's Testament is nearly completely worthless, as Kumoko doesn't need a heart to function.
E: I haven't even touched on Kumoko's use of dimensional magic, either. Much more than just teleportation or battlefield displacement, Kumoko stores clones and opens rifts to personally made dimensions, allowing her to use her Evil Eye attacks 360 degrees from any number of her clones, on top of weaving her clothes using dimensional portals, creating nigh-indestructible thread. Not sure how a soul-weapon would interact with this, to be honest.
There is a severe disparity in their Regenerationn and stamina. Furthermore, back to the clones, Kumoko's clones allow for multiple avenues of accelerated thought and multi-tasking. Yeah... the more I think about it, the more Edelweiss is at a disadvantage, even with her individual power. On top of this, Kumoko's heart bursting due to Edelweiss's Testament is nearly completely worthless, as Kumoko doesn't need a heart to function.
E: I haven't even touched on Kumoko's use of dimensional magic, either. Much more than just teleportation or battlefield displacement, Kumoko stores clones and opens rifts to personally made dimensions, allowing her to use her Evil Eye attacks 360 degrees from any number of her clones, on top of weaving her clothes using dimensional portals, creating nigh-indestructible thread. Not sure how a soul-weapon would interact with this, to be honest.
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Bump with more information:
Kumoko only uses her eyes for her powers... because she thinks it's cool. She is perfectly capable of using these powers without her eyes and crafting them with thought. She is also a master of Dimensional Manipulation, outdoing a natural god almost a millennia older than her. (See: Chapter 330)
Oh? Kuro is preparing to teleport? Perhaps he's judged that so much distance has opened up between us that he won't be able to catch up without leaping through space? Eh? But, even so, that's a bad move you know?
Kuro activates the teleport. He's trying to link space to an area right in front of me.
ÒÇîGuhah!?ÒÇì
However, I interfere with the technique. Due to that the technique is disturbed, with the resulting distortion causing Kuro to take damage as he tries to jump through space. It's like he was about to jump through an open door, but then the door was locked shut and he carried on moving and collided with it. The situation is completely different, but it's something along those lines. Incidentally, the cause of the door being locked was my interference with the technique.
Not to mention her passive God Zone allows Kumoko to passively mess with physics within it. Edelweiss's use of Fate Manipulation may be able to stop this, due to also manipulating the world around them.
Kumoko only uses her eyes for her powers... because she thinks it's cool. She is perfectly capable of using these powers without her eyes and crafting them with thought. She is also a master of Dimensional Manipulation, outdoing a natural god almost a millennia older than her. (See: Chapter 330)
Oh? Kuro is preparing to teleport? Perhaps he's judged that so much distance has opened up between us that he won't be able to catch up without leaping through space? Eh? But, even so, that's a bad move you know?
Kuro activates the teleport. He's trying to link space to an area right in front of me.
ÒÇîGuhah!?ÒÇì
However, I interfere with the technique. Due to that the technique is disturbed, with the resulting distortion causing Kuro to take damage as he tries to jump through space. It's like he was about to jump through an open door, but then the door was locked shut and he carried on moving and collided with it. The situation is completely different, but it's something along those lines. Incidentally, the cause of the door being locked was my interference with the technique.
Not to mention her passive God Zone allows Kumoko to passively mess with physics within it. Edelweiss's use of Fate Manipulation may be able to stop this, due to also manipulating the world around them.
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No, her Fate Manipulation transcends the fate of her world.
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Nope, meaning hot spider beats hot swordswoman.
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Edel doesn't have anything outside of fear hax, but that is precisely her win cond here.
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Yeah, can't see it happening due to the previously mentioned points.
Kumoko can, will, and has fought to the death before on multiple occasions. She has died due to a fight with her mother, another to Ariel blasting her to smithereens physically, and being atomized by Abyss Magic, magic that ignores soul manipulation and resistance.
Kumoko has almost exclusively fought beings way stronger than herself, even as a god, with win conditions much lower than that of fighting Edelweiss. Here's the thing I see. Even if Edelweiss showed Kumoko a Death by energy loss, Kumoko would still be able to use the Eye of Serenity on herself via clones to calm herself, while clones in a pocket dimension, outside of Edelweiss's Aura, could formulate win conditions and strategies for the main body and send those over. Once Kumoko knows those strategies, she will go for a win no matter what. She only flees if there is a 0% chance of winning, and the pocket-dimension and parallel thought combo with her clones allows her to see a greater than 0 chance of winning.
I'm basing "not fleeing" part of her personality from... I think it's v6? Chapter title Baby Spider Beatdown.
Kumoko can, will, and has fought to the death before on multiple occasions. She has died due to a fight with her mother, another to Ariel blasting her to smithereens physically, and being atomized by Abyss Magic, magic that ignores soul manipulation and resistance.
Kumoko has almost exclusively fought beings way stronger than herself, even as a god, with win conditions much lower than that of fighting Edelweiss. Here's the thing I see. Even if Edelweiss showed Kumoko a Death by energy loss, Kumoko would still be able to use the Eye of Serenity on herself via clones to calm herself, while clones in a pocket dimension, outside of Edelweiss's Aura, could formulate win conditions and strategies for the main body and send those over. Once Kumoko knows those strategies, she will go for a win no matter what. She only flees if there is a 0% chance of winning, and the pocket-dimension and parallel thought combo with her clones allows her to see a greater than 0 chance of winning.
I'm basing "not fleeing" part of her personality from... I think it's v6? Chapter title Baby Spider Beatdown.
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Yeah but all of those are still not good enough to resist the Desperado passive.
Kurono Shinguuji is a top ranking member (before retiring) in the KOK-A League, a place where losing limbs or your life is commonplace. She still shat her pants in front of Edelweiss.
Stella Vermillio went into a fight prepared to kill or die when against her lover Ikki Kurogane, she still couldn't resist Edelweiss' passive.
Same could be said for Nene Saikyou who is a top ranking member in KOK-A League same as Kurono.
Kurono Shinguuji is a top ranking member (before retiring) in the KOK-A League, a place where losing limbs or your life is commonplace. She still shat her pants in front of Edelweiss.
Stella Vermillio went into a fight prepared to kill or die when against her lover Ikki Kurogane, she still couldn't resist Edelweiss' passive.
Same could be said for Nene Saikyou who is a top ranking member in KOK-A League same as Kurono.
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Even while feared, if it isn't resisted on Kumoko's side, Kumoko will fight to the last if she knows that she has a chance to win, which her combo of pocket dimension parallel thought with her clones will provide.
Kumoko has fought as nothing but a disembodied head. That's how she beat the Queen Taratect known as Mother.
It comes down to the question "Will Kumoko fight knowing that she will die?" and the answer is yes, she can, has, and will.
Kumoko has fought as nothing but a disembodied head. That's how she beat the Queen Taratect known as Mother.
It comes down to the question "Will Kumoko fight knowing that she will die?" and the answer is yes, she can, has, and will.
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That's the point, she has no chance of winning she knows that. Kurono has freaking EE at her disposal, she still didn't try to challenge edelweiss.
Ok but that's because she knows that she cannot die like that.
I believe none of the cases you provided prove any of that it is just "fight life or death battles" (which is not the same as i gave examples), "fight in very poor conditions" (like the just a head, which is similar to Ikki fighting while having a hole through every non vital organ and limb). None of the likes that would be required to fight off the fear of facing desperados which as i said is literally "throw your life away" (not just fight a life or death battle), all examples of it being resisted are "I don't want my life if i can't move further", "I will give up my life to save my sister" etc.
Ok but that's because she knows that she cannot die like that.
I believe none of the cases you provided prove any of that it is just "fight life or death battles" (which is not the same as i gave examples), "fight in very poor conditions" (like the just a head, which is similar to Ikki fighting while having a hole through every non vital organ and limb). None of the likes that would be required to fight off the fear of facing desperados which as i said is literally "throw your life away" (not just fight a life or death battle), all examples of it being resisted are "I don't want my life if i can't move further", "I will give up my life to save my sister" etc.
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Firephoenixearl said:
So, Edel's win-con is her fearhax, and you say that won't work... what's the word for this?NoGround said:
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Ok, so if I'm understanding correctly, the Desperado Passive makes Edelweiss seem invincible within her extremely large aura, right? If I'm understanding this correctly after your explanation, a counter to this, one would either need to throw their life away, but in the end the Desperado Passive here is an illusion. When you get right down to it, that's all fear manipulation is.
If that is the case, Kumoko can dispel it. With Kumoko's clones being in a pocket dimension, which is outside the reach of Edelweiss's aura, Kumoko can be force fed information that directly counteracts the illusion of the Desperado Passive. That's the thing. Kumoko doesn't need to have to throw her life away because she knows she can win. It's not resisting it, it's directly dispelling it
If that is the case, Kumoko can dispel it. With Kumoko's clones being in a pocket dimension, which is outside the reach of Edelweiss's aura, Kumoko can be force fed information that directly counteracts the illusion of the Desperado Passive. That's the thing. Kumoko doesn't need to have to throw her life away because she knows she can win. It's not resisting it, it's directly dispelling it
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It's not precisely "dispelling". People experience their deaths due to the Desperado's fate. The way it is portrayed and explained is messed up, but people see how they're going to die due to feeling a Desperado's fate. So a desperado's fate leads them to the end of their fate. (If you don't get it don't worry, it took me quite a while to understand this too).
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Yeah it's really confusing. I don't see how it would work on Kumoko due to her being a meta-physical being with a ridiculous amount of passive pure life energy and the ability to defend her own soul with conscious magecraft. There is no concept of "fate" in Kumo Desu Ga. I'm gonna chalk it up to votes in this case. I've provided extra info for Kumoko beyond DontTalkDT and you've made your points for Edelweiss. Votes are something like this right now, including our own. Let me know if this is a miscount. There are some who have commented but not voted yet.
4 - Kumoko
2 - Edelweiss
4 - Kumoko
2 - Edelweiss
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I'm setting my vote on the spider, btw. Edelweiß's only wincon is trying to scare Shiraori, and like, it's pretty obvious how that's not enough. If Stella was able to shrug it off through sheer ego and drive to get stronger no matter the cost, then the girl who has quite literally died before has no problem.
Basically what I'm saying is that Stella could bypass it and her reason to die was shallow as f*ck.
Basically what I'm saying is that Stella could bypass it and her reason to die was shallow as f*ck.
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Okay yeah, had a small miscount. The current vote is
4 - Kumoko
2 - Edelweiss
After The real cal howard's vote
4 - Kumoko
2 - Edelweiss
After The real cal howard's vote
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@Cal how is the reason being shallow an argument?
Shallow or not she literally decided she did not want to live if she couldn't become a despeardo. Something kumoko cannot do.
@NoGround
A metaphysical being? Wot?
Shallow or not she literally decided she did not want to live if she couldn't become a despeardo. Something kumoko cannot do.
@NoGround
A metaphysical being? Wot?
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Because pretty much any hero can do that. Many characters in fiction have stronger ideals being willing to die than Goku syndrome, and if that's all it takes to survive, it's not nearly as hard as you're making it seem. Take Superman for example. The dude is willing to die for his city if it comes to it. No way in heck is fearhax that couldn't drive off someone willing to die protecting their sister, or worse, willing to die to get stronger, would work on him. Shiraori straight up isn't scared of death. Been there, done that.
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Spider-Woman FRA
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Alright, that's 7 votes in.
Kumoko wins 5-2. Thank you for your participation! I'm in mobile, if someone else could edit the respective character pages (or I will when I get home), would be much appreciated.
(or should we wait a bit for more opinions? I'm not that familiar with closing threads)
Kumoko wins 5-2. Thank you for your participation! I'm in mobile, if someone else could edit the respective character pages (or I will when I get home), would be much appreciated.
(or should we wait a bit for more opinions? I'm not that familiar with closing threads)
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,393
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Spider FRA.
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You need 7 votes on a single side for it to be considered a win. Alas, 5-2 isn't a win, 7-2 is.NoGround said:
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Kumoko FRA
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Now THAT is Grace.
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Can Edelweiss even affect her?
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Supposedly with fearhax.
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NoGround said fearhax won't work at all on Kumoko.
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