EBF: A simple proposed change

[Ebihara]

This will be pretty straightforward and simple. The point of this thread is to solidify on the pages that the characters can make decisions in battle without the player being present.


As it stands its being argued in effectively every Epic Battle Fantasy thread that without the player that the characters in combat are just making random choices and throwing out random moves. This is in itself isn't really supported in the current pages for the verse. There is no mention of this verse page or on the blog linked on User blog:Kaltias/Epic Battle Fantasy respect thread | VS Battles Wiki. Even on the character pages themselves the part that seems to be “supporting” this has no scans for it and what is stated doesn't even support the claim that they act entirely random. As well as it just doesn't have any scans for it. This statement is on every single one of the characters pages just with the characters name changed.

“However, as an avatar of "The Player", Anna doesn't actually fight by herself, but rather follows the orders and does what the Player tells her, even if it goes against her own will”

This to me is clearly implying that if the Player is controlling the Characters they don't act on their own, but in the absence of the player they would be able to control their own actions in combat. To assume otherwise needs significantly more proof to assume that a game mechanic such as enemies acting semi random is anything more than a game mechanic. Every other rpg/jrpg we don't make the assumption that npcs and random enemies that are incapable of making decisions in battle.

The changes that need to be made would be adding something to the verse page and probably add it to the character pages as well as a note.

“While the player is present Avatar characters dont fight by themselves but instead follow orders told to them by the player even if that command would go against the avatar characters' will. However in the absence of the player the avatar character are capable of making independent decisions in combat.”

I am open to changing the wording of this.


Agree: @Topaz404 @Nierre @Mr. Bambu

Disagree:

 

[Topaz404]

This is of course an agree from me, because this should really be obvious.....ah well

 

[Nierre]

obviously agree.

 

[Ebihara]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This would seem to be a standard assumption. I guess it can be added, although one feels it is so obviously self evident that it seems strange that there's a need for it. Regardless, put me down as an agree.

 

[Topaz404]

This would seem to be a standard assumption. I guess it can be added, although one feels it is so obviously self evident that it seems strange that there's a need for it. Regardless, put me down as an agree.

I really wish we didnt have to, but unfortunately it would be clear that it has to be added. This thread was the main thing that started it, hence why we are here.

 

[Ebihara]

This would seem to be a standard assumption. I guess it can be added, although one feels it is so obviously self evident that it seems strange that there's a need for it. Regardless, put me down as an agree.

I agree, but it has become an issue as topaz pointed out, there was an anna thread awhile ago that was voted incon cause of the assumption that the characters where acting randomly. So it has become a issue in 2 threads recently. This is meant to add clarification so this isn't argued over and over in every thread with these characters and we can have actual fun productive threads.

 

[Topaz404]

I agree, but it has become an issue as topaz pointed out, there was an anna thread awhile ago that was voted incon cause of the assumption that the characters where acting randomly. So it has become a issue in 2 threads recently. This is meant to add clarification so this isn't argued over and over in every thread with these characters and we can have actual fun productive threads.

Oh yeah, one small suggestion, bold staff/mod votes to ensure they're seen properly

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The revision proposal makes sense to me, but I have a question.

Due to the player's status as a canonical entity and due to The Devourer being a character who can interact with the cosmology as a simulation, I'm concerned that we might not be realizing we are looking at an Undertale situation where game mechanics are canon. Is there evidence that confirms, denies, or possibly implies this interpretation? I think this is an important factor to address even if no one disagrees with the revision proposal.

 

[Topaz404]

The revision proposal makes sense to me, but I have a question.

Due to the player's status as a canonical entity and due to The Devourer being a character who can interact with the cosmology as a simulation, I'm concerned that we might not be realizing we are looking at an Undertale situation where game mechanics are canon. Is there evidence that confirms, denies, or possibly implies this interpretation? I think this is an important factor to address even if no one disagrees with the revision proposal.

The issue is that there's no evidence to support the fact that they're canon fighting style is random bullcrap go. Sure, the Player being canon kinda throws a bit of a wrench into it, but lets take Demi-Fiend for an example

He's a playable character in SMT 3, of course, and then makes his return in SMT 5- and i believe you may also recruit him as well. Sure, the Player isnt canon in SMT, but it's widely accepted that outside of Player control and in a actual fight to the death, he can make his own choices when it comes to ending the fight. Such is also an example for any RPG enemy. What should be different for EBF? (hell, isnt there other RPGs where the player is considered "canon"?)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The issue is that there's no evidence to support the fact that they're canon fighting style is random bullcrap go. Sure, the Player being canon kinda throws a bit of a wrench into it, but lets take Demi-Fiend for an example

He's a playable character in SMT 3, of course, and then makes his return in SMT 5- and i believe you may also recruit him as well. Sure, the Player isnt canon in SMT, but it's widely accepted that outside of Player control and in a actual fight to the death, he can make his own choices when it comes to ending the fight. Such is also an example for any RPG enemy. What should be different for EBF? (hell, isnt there other RPGs where the player is considered "canon"?)

That makes sense to me. In other words, the burden of proof is on anyone claiming game mechanics are canon, which is standardized, and that burden of proof has yet to be fulfilled in this case, because the portrayals of the fourth wall in this series don't lead us to that conclusion and there isn't other evidence that makes this case more special than any other RPG game.

Alright, then the revision is good to go after the grace period.

 

[Topaz404]

Yeah, but i do want to at least hear Psycho's arguments first. Generally

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Yeah, but i do want to at least hear Psycho's arguments first. Generally

Yes, me too. Good idea.

[Text.]

[Text.]

Please ping @Psychomaster35 here with your staff powers.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not staff and consequentially have no powers.

@Psychomaster35

See? Nada.

 

[Topaz404]

So, how do staff votes really work with smaller stuff like this anyways? Whats the difference on required votes between something small and something large?

 

[Ebihara]

So, how do staff votes really work with smaller stuff like this anyways? Whats the difference on required votes between something small and something large?

yes 2 staff members is enough for this. we have to wait 48 hours though.

 

[Topaz404]

yes 2 staff members is enough for this. we have to wait 48 hours though.

in that case we still need another staff member, then

 

[Ebihara]

in that case we still need another staff member, then

thread mods count

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[Topaz404]

Oh, huh. Neat.

 

[Ebihara]

its been 48 hours since the staff vote that passed the thread. Looks like this can be applied, I have never edited the wiki at all so I will go read the relevant pages then edit this.


“While the player is present Avatar characters don't fight by themselves but instead follow orders told to them by the player even if that command would go against the avatar characters' will. However in the absence of the player the avatar character are capable of making independent decisions in combat.” going to have it as a note on the verse page and on the relevant character pages as stated in the op.

 

[Ebihara]

The proper edits have been made. I think I did them proeperly. I will probably make another CRT to make there intelligence sections better later as that is outside the scope of this thread.

Thank you all for your help.