Earthbound Downgrades

[Dark649]

So, what is the most safe rating for them?.

 

[Chrisras]

SOOOooooo..... At least 8-B, likely 7-C (Nuclear reactors seem legit)/ possibly Low 7-B (going by Dargoo's propositon)

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

I'm fine with that

Can we please put them at 8-C so I can put him up against Heaven DIO, Rohan, or other JoJo characters?

 

[Podonklos]

I agree with Arbitrary's proposition, he makes a good deal of sense.

Unless...

The guidebooks compared it to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima though

Dragon can source this? If this can be cited, I'd be fine with keeping them as-is.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I've read through several of the official canon earthbound guidebooks, I have no idea where this is mentioned. Most I got was that it nukes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It compares them to Nuclear Warheads; as it the bigger nukes such as the ones that range from 7-C to 7-B. If they were the 8-B "Portable Nukes", they wouldn't be called Warheads. Furthermore, it has been discussed countless times that anything below 7-C is too low for the Atomic Robots and Nuclear Robots. Still, based on the appearance however, they're more like Power Plants. And Power Plant detonations have been known to cause Magnitude 8 Earthquakes, which are 7-B actually, but even I may find that iffy.

I still prefer to keep them as Low 7-B.

 

[Podonklos]

Dark, you're talking about this guide, right? It doesn't mention anything about warheads, or the nukes on Hiroshima. The only thing it says about the Atomic Power Robots is:

The Atomic Power Robot is an early prototype of the Starman series. These robots will continue to function until they melt down.
	~ Earthbound Player's Guide​

The entry on the Nuclear Reactor Robot says:

This nuke will nuke everything in sight if it is defeated. The best strategy is to run from it. If it is with a companion, defeat the companion, then run.
	~ Earthbound Player's Guide​

The second entry is a little more helpful than the first, but we still don't know the yield of its "nuke".

Also, the Atomic Power Robots are nuclear powered... but... not all nuclear reactors have the same yields. Assuming a small, walking robot is equal to a massive, concrete power plant just because they both use the same energy source is fallacious.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was referring to a different guide that was in Japanese a while back that I think it was Saikou who provided it. It's also fallacious to use size based on "limitations due to game mechanics"; that's the most fallacious thing ever period in fact. There was also a quote mentioning Atomic Robots being powerful enough to nuke all of Fourside iirc. It's also arbitrary for super powered aliens that are considered a threat to the entire world to be weaker than modern day nuclear weapons; so 7-C is a lowball if anything.

Also, I'm personally getting really tired of debating the base keys of Earthbound; and really tired atm since I just got back from a rough day at work.

 

[Podonklos]

I'm sorry, but I don't think we can justify a stat just based on a quote you heard about from someone. If you could give a citation on the warhead quote or the Fourside quote, however, that would be perfect.

As for your other arguments, I'm not saying the robots are small based on limitations, I'm saying they are small because we are shown they are small. If the Atomic Robots were the size of real power plants, how would they fit within Stonehenge, as they do in game? How would multiple, large building sized robots fit within a single cave? Also, if the Atomic Robots are that huge, why didn't the game show it? It was capable of showing other enemies as being giant...

I also don't understand why a target has to be more powerful than a nuclear bomb to be a threat to the world. Nuclear bombs haven't been used for nearly a century, and it's not like the US would nuke its own cities just to get rid of a few robots...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Saikou is one of our most knowledgeable staff members here; and as mentioned above, been discussed numerous times. I'll dig for the source when I have more time and energy, but it was brought up in a previous thread back in 2017. It was a quote from Pokey or someone; there was mentioning of Mani Mani Statue leaving the Fourside residents distracted, and for an Atomic Robot to nuke it when they have the chance somewhere.

That's just how they appear on World Map; Dinosaurs also don't looks that big on the battlescreen. Actually Nuclear Robots being only several times bigger than a normal human wasn't the argument, but their explosions being smaller sized is merely game mechanics. They're still far bigger than those football sized nukes. So they should be roughly 8-A at bare minimum if you don't want to compare them to Little Boy or Fat Man.

I'm talking various enemies in Earthbound; not just the Nuclear Robots. Enemies such as the Sanctuary Guardians. The U.S. Army has had been willing to nuke areas in case the Loch Ness Monster for instance was actually real. Same with Alien invasions, they have nuclear missiles in case of those. Sanctuary Guardians are pretty much the equivalent of if the Kraken or Loch Ness Monster were actually real. Not saying that have to scale to Tsar Bomba, but I highly doubt the party is weaker than Tier 7. These are threats even every country's military on the planet put together considers a threat though.

 

[Podonklos]

You can't judge the dinosaur's size from the battlescreen, since there's no scale for reference. We don't know how far in the background the dinosaur is.

As for size, the problem is that we just don't know what it's like inside of the robots. There must be a great portion of its volume dedicated to the gears that move its body, as well as some extra space in there for the AI components. It's not reasonable to assume that a large portion of its volume is composed of uranium, and we don't have any evidence to prove it either way.

As it is, the Atomic and Nuclear Robots are just too vague. They are probably somewhere between 8-C and 8-A, but we don't know where. It's much safer to scale from the numerous, more quantifiable feats Arbitrary has provided, as there's less assumptions in those.

"The U.S. Army has had been willing to nuke areas in case the Loch Ness Monster for instance was actually real. Same with Alien invasions, they have nuclear missiles in case of those."

No offense but... this sounds like a conspiracy theory.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They've been on the same screen as enemies much smaller before; that's the point. That sounds like a pretty major knit pick, but they're still well intended to be pretty destructive nukes. The AI is probably in the head if they have any, plus they do have arms and actually, they're controlled by Giygas.

8-C is far too low, and even 8-A is a massive lowball; still generally decided to be 7-C. It was already discussed a long time ago here. Also, we already addressed a lot of the points Arbitrary pointed out in the OP in which he conceded with most of them. And actually, the protagonists should scale from the highest concrete feat as scaling the Tier 9 to 8-C stuff are literally the Goombas of the verse. The focus should scale from the best feat performed by any of the boss fights. Kraken is legit 8-B to 8-A via size and from their tornado feat. Thunder and Storm also has more in depth lore about their storm capabilities being more concrete. Also, all psychics in Earthbound are more like Jedi and Sith from Star Wars; they physical strength and durability scale from their psychic potential for many reasons. They can create Psychic and physical barriers using the exact same amount of power to enhance their durability. And they can also use psychic powers to enhance physical strikes,;so Thunder and Storm weaponizing the casual Low 7-B storms is also legit.

The Loch Ness Monster and Alien UFO's are just theories that weren't really true yes, but there were historical times where the army actually did believe those before.

Though, I forgot to mention that PK Starstorm is basically a legit meteor shower. Not sure if there's a general calc for causing meteor showers; but meteors in general have a tendency to be impressive.

 

[Podonklos]

As Arbitrary pointed out, the 7-B calculation is based on a false premise. We don't know how large the storm was, but it was small enough to fit in a cave. The Kraken feat is possibly valid, though we don't know the size of the tornado generated. Weekly's calculation assumes a tornado 1 km in radius, but if the Kraken generated a tornado that large then the ship the party is in would be utterly dwarfed and likely destroyed.

Going through the thread you linked, nobody presented an argument for the Atomic Robots being ranked as they are. They just agreed that it felt right... Not only is that an appeal to emotion, using it here is an argumentum ad populum.

Also, Arbitrary made many more arguments here than he did in there. Your claim that he's already conceded most of these points isn't true, as the only point he really argued in that thread was about the Atomic Robots.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Except, I already addressed that point. As well as the in depth lore, mentioned on another previous thread with evidence provided by Chrisras, that the storms are real. As well as the in depth lore mentioning that Thunder and Storm is powerful enough to create a country wide storm across Daleem. And as for Kraken, it's better said that party shielded the ship from the Kraken; it doesn't have to cause destruction for it to be legit. Tornado's still vary from 8-B to Low 6-B. There was another mention on another thread about Tornados require a 14 tons of TNT baseline.

Also forgot to mention that the Kraken's size also dwarfs that of a nearby Volcano; which used to be what got them rated all the way to 7-A; but pixel scaling is inconsistent yes. But it was a scene of a ship travelling from country to country, so that gives the impression that the Island and Volcano were intended to be those size. Was mentioned on this thread about Krakens being said size, and the image of the Kraken being bigger than the Volcano is also shown in the save thread I linked in the first paragraph.

He still conceded above with fodder enemies being too low, and that protagonists should scale from any boss they fought along their journey. He also lacked a second back up argument and mostly just repeated the basic one regarding Thunder and Storm. But as mentioned above, maybe 7-A Kraken wasn't as crazy as it first sounded.

 

[Andytrenom]

@DDM Btw I'm pretty sure Saikou hadn't even played Earthbound when that thread you linked took place

 

[Chrisras]

To be fair, thunder and storm are in fact referenced as wheater makers in the player's guide, so they should have least the power for people to think they can change natural phenomena.

 

[Podonklos]

Dark, nobody is arguing the storms are illusions, we're debating the size of them. You're attacking a strawman.

Also...

"And as for Kraken, it's better said that party shielded the ship from the Kraken; it doesn't have to cause destruction for it to be legit"

I think this is the problem with your argument. Throughout the thread you've made excuses and theories as to why the Atomic Rockets, the storms, and the Kraken can all be high Tier 8s, but you never provided evidence that they were that scale in the first place.

It is extremely unfair, and illogical, to expect Arbitrary, me, DMUA, Darkanine, and GiverofthePeace to argue against an assumption that all of these events are "large", which is what this is. There's no evidence that the Atomic Robots have large explosions, so there's no reason to say the lack of them is just "game mechanics". It's on you to prove with evidence, not gut feeling and theory, that the Atomic Robots have 8-A or higher explosions. It's not on us to disprove an assumption made without evidence. It's not on us to disprove that the Kraken's tornado was 2 kilometers wide, it's on you to prove that.

Which, well, you can't...

There's no evidence for any of these things in Earthbound. I've been open to quotes about Hiroshima and Fourside, but you haven't provided any scans of these. It seems like 8-A/7-C feats in Earthbound are all based on assumptions without evidence.

 

[Demise0]

Arbitrary makes a good point, Earthbound's current rankings don't have enough evidence to back them up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You accuse me of creating a strawman, despite the strawman on your side.

It's very common sense for Vs debating; destructive capacity =/= Attack Potency. We can't just give Earthbound "Shabby Treatment," just because we don't see much destruction. Look at the ratings of other JRPGs; Final Fantasy VII for instance. Everyone in FFVII is 4-B based on Sephiroth's supernova calc despite it not destroying the Earth. So using that as an excuse for Earthbound is a massive double standard. And as mentioned above, Sanctuary Guardian fights actually take place in subconscious minds where nearly anything is possible. There's also plenty of other games like Chrono Trigger, Rain of Destruction busts the planet's surface in one blow, but when fought as a boss, there's no collateral damage and fight takes place in a temple; further proving the lack of destruction as a double standard.

That next paragraph is also very hypocritical as well as quantity over quality. On this site, Quality > Quantity; using appeal to popularity is all quantity and no quality. Anyway, I know some of those people well, but Arbitrary is the only one who gave elaborate details, but even those were argued against and hasn't brought up a concrete counter argument afterwards. Also, don't accuse me of being unfair, I actually know some of these people well and have full respect for them. Also, it's even more unfair to argue against only half my points and not the others; which I'll explain in the next couple of paragraphs.

First of all, I already brought up that 8-B is a baseline for tornado feats, and that 8-A is a baseline for "Nuke everything" statements. Furthermore, comparing Nuclear Robots to "Football sized explosives" such as the W54 warhead. The Davy Crockett is only the size of a football and wields 10 to 20 Tons of TNT; so that proves anything lower than 8-B is a borderline knit pick. Second, the W-54 is like 9 feet long and is narrow in width; and it yields a 250 Ton of TNT. The Nuclear Robots and Atomic Robots are about the same height as Starmen, who are roughly twice the size of a human; and are nearly as thick as they are tall. So just from eyeball analysis, the nuclear robots should be bigger than those; case closed.

Now as mentioned above, Cruise Ships have at least High 8-C durability via sheer size, but completely shattering one is an 8-A to Low 7-C feat. Look at the size comparison between the Kraken and the ship; it's wayyyyy bigger than the ship, so there's no reason for the Kraken not to at least be capable of completely smashing the ship. Furthermore, you blatantly avoided my next point that on this image below...


You can see the Kraken slightly dwarf the size of the volcano. I know sprite scaling is inconsistent, but the sea travel scene was inherently expressing the travel from country to country; meaning those islands and volcanoes in this instance are intended to be real volcanoes; rather than pixel scaling gap, A > B > C size comparisons makes more sense. Additionally, read Chrisras's next point; he literally said that the official Japanese guidebook describes Thunder and Storm as effecting the planet's weather. There was also something about the Large Palm Leaf he mentioned. Which means he at the very least, they are capable of producing standard traditional storm feats that justify the Low 7-B rating. Which even that's a lowball if anything.

So in conclusion, they aren't based on "Assumptions", there are actually scientific facts and common sense on my side. It's also extremely unfair to just discredit mine, Chrisras, DaBigP, and Iapitus's points just because we happen to be "outnumbered"; elaborated details are just as vital scans. It's also narrow minded to say, "No evidence" when there could be some you haven't looked at. I agree that scans are important, but it's unfair to be inconsiderate my RL situation and health. And it also doesn't discredit my other points where I actually did give scans, or where the threads I linked contained scans. We can't just create a new double standard just to downplay Earthbound while nearly every other JRPG, as well as other verses such as Star Wars gets their justifications and even Discussion Rules arguing against downgrading those.

I'll dig for possible back up scans for the Foreside statement or Hiroshima nukes, ect when I have time or energy, but other points remain. Address, every single point and every single detail of those points, don't just say argue against one or two points or one or two details of other points and say "I gave no evidence." Also, if upper comments are edited, the new information brought up in the edited versions are also important.

 

[DMUA]

"Everyone in FFVII is 4-B based on Sephiroth's supernova calc despite it not destroying the Earth. So using that as an excuse for Earthbound is a massive double standard."

Said Supernova happened in a pocket dimension where it could not in fact destroy earth

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Edited that paragraph and added Lavos as another example with even more details.

 

[Podonklos]

Dark, the argument isn't that there's powerful feats but no destruction, so they must be weak. The argument is that these feats don't have anything to suggest they're 8-A or Tier 7 aside from assumptions and theories. Nobody would be arguing about the Atomic Robots if the Atomic Robots had an 8-A or Tier 7 calc, but they just don't. The Atomic Robots are Tier 7 just because... we said so. No proof. No evidence. We just felt like they should be that strong.

This isn't a good standard of evidence :/

"First of all, I already brought up that 8-B is a baseline for tornado feats, and that 8-A is a baseline for "Nuke everything" statements"

And you were wrong on these points. We don't know how big the explosion is, and we don't know how big the tornado is, so you can't calc this. It's all assumptions.

"Furthermore, comparing Nuclear Robots to "Football sized explosives" such as the W54 warhead"

The Nuclear Robots aren't normal warheads. They are robots with an unknown interior. They are powered by uranium, and they are capable of exploding, but that is where the similarities end. They do not resemble any real life weapon closely enough to make a strong analogous case.

You're still making assumptions and guesswork :/

"Now as mentioned above, Cruise Ships"

Well now you're fabricating things. That boat isn't a cruise ship, it's a small, personal boat carrying only five people.

"so there's no reason for the Kraken not to at least be capable of completely smashing the ship"

More guesswork and theories :/

A blue whale is bigger than a tank, but it can't shatter it to pieces.

"You can see the Kraken slightly dwarf the size of the volcano."

As you say yourself, the sprite sizes are inconsistent. Said volcanoes are also not much larger than the trees around it, which themselves are not much larger than the small boat the party is on.

"there are actually scientific facts and common sense on my side"

Your "common sense" argument about the Atomic Robot was that... they were a threat and the real life US might possibly nuke Nessie if it was real in a hypothetical scenario so the fictionalized Eagleland version of the US might maybe have nuked the robots which means the robots are Tier 7 for possibly having the ability to tank a nuke.

There's been ridiculous amounts of guesswork going on here. This would not pass for any other verse.

"I'll dig for possible back up scans when I have time or energy, but other points remain."

All of which rely on similar amounts of guesswork, misinterpreting of arguments, or outright fabrication.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's a baseline size that Tornadoes are hundreds of meters in order for a Tornado to happen in the first place; otherwise, it wouldn't be called a Tornado. There doesn't have to be imagery if lore is enough.

For the robots, you said it yourself that the details inside the robots are unknown. But they resemble power plants yes. But they still fight as if they're living nukes and their detonations are still formadiable. Again, that's like assuming lasers that have no calc are 10-C. Itoi himself still considers the robots fairly big nukes; and I already brought up the Lavos point. Furthermore, the Onett Army was pretty much completely wiped out by aliens in the games intro; and with even their strongest missiles being described as useless.

The "Boat" is another game mechanic. The Sailor said ship, and it's located at a dock full of warships. And, how does a boat travel from country to country with ease without sinking, when small boats aren't designed to handle the oceans waves?

Blue Whales are different; they're slow, and not very flexible. The Kraken as tentacles that could simply squeeze the ship, or even the jaw could chew the ship. In addition to have some Tornado feats to boot.

Yes, but the game developers didn't technology to make scenery 100% accurate. Traveling from an Island Country to Country located on another continent would take days, but cinematic timeframe makes it look more like a few minutes minus the Kraken fight. Volcanoes that small don't even exist on Earth; the smallest Volcano on Earth is 508 meters tall. Volcanoes on screen have the image of an active volcano given the lava on the cap. I too am iffy on 7-A, but it's not an impossibility.

Still haven't addressed Chrisras' point about Thunder and Storm at all I see.

Guesswork isn't always fallacious if there's reason to back it up. Also, Street Fighter's 7-B's come from a City busting satellite laser statement for instance. Plenty of verses that have tactical nukes describe those nukes as Tier 7 with or without calcs. The High 6-A's of Sonic the Hedgehog scale from a character who's described as a surface buster. That's also despite the fact that Sonic only ever fought a weakened version of Ifrit

Forgot about yet another feat; Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog triggers Earthquakes throughout Lost Underworld; said quakes cause giant geysers and are stated to be capable of triggering active volcanoes. Which according to this article Magnitude 6 Earthquakes, which are Town level, are a baseline requirement for minor eruptions. But the major ones require Magnitude 8, which are 7-B.

Considering Thunder and Storm literally endangers the entire country of Daleem with their Thunder Storms, and Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog threatens the Tenda village, and pretty much most of Lost Underworld with their quakes and volcanoes; I doubt Tier 7 is as questionable as what's being stated.

 

[Podonklos]

"There's a baseline size that Tornadoes are hundreds of meters in order for a Tornado to happen in the first place; otherwise, it wouldn't be called a Tornado"

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

A tornado is defined by its shape and wind speed, not by it's size.

And even if it was, the calc assumes a tornado massively larger than average. Weekly's calculation is for a tornado 2000 meters in diameter, but the average tornado in the US is only 150 meters across.

"Itoi himself still considers the robots fairly big nukes; and I already brought up the Lavos point. Furthermore, the Onett Army was pretty much completely wiped out by aliens in the games intro; and with even their strongest missiles being described as useless"

Dark, you keep making claims that would allow us to quantify the Atomic Robots at least slightly without ever sourcing them. This is somewhat frustrating, as it comes across as if you're just making stuff up based on something you might've heard from somewhere.

But let us assume these sources both exist and are in context. Even if we assume the Atomic/Nuclear Robots are both Tier 7, they still would not fully scale to the Chosen Four. Remember, explosions only impact people with a fraction of their full yield. Unless Ness smothers an Atomic Robot like a grenade, which he doesn't, then he wouldn't scale to the entirety of the blast.

And it's not like we can quantify how much of the blast he'd scale to anyways, as we don't know any of the conditions when Ness takes one of those explosions. The whole scene is unquantifiable and relies on assumptions at every corner.

"The "Boat" is another game mechanic. The Sailor said ship, and it's located at a dock full of warships. And, how does a boat travel from country to country with ease without sinking, when small boats aren't designed to handle the oceans waves?"

This is still completely untrue.

Nothing says the boats are "warships", that's something you made up. You're also wrong about small boats being unable to handle ocean waves. Sven Yrvind has literally made a career of travelling across oceans in boats only large enough to hold a single person, much less five.

"Volcanoes that small don't even exist on Earth; the smallest Volcano on Earth is 508 meters tall."

I was not arguing that the volcano is small, I am saying that the sprites are too inconsistent to make a conclusion off of.

Why scale the Kraken off the volcano when it can be scaled from the boat, or the trees? You can't cherrypick your evidence here. The scale makes too little sense to be seriously used.

"Still haven't addressed Chrisras' point about Thunder and Storm at all I see."

Chrisras' point was that Thunder and Storm can form weather phenomena, which does not help quantify the scale, as weather is not based on size. Clouds can be small enough to fit in a single room, and rainclouds can be only a few meters across. We don't know how large the magic, psychic weather cloud is. We know it is small enough to fit in a cave, and that's all.

"Forgot about yet another feat; Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog triggers Earthquakes throughout Lost Underworld; said quakes cause giant geysers and are stated to be capable of triggering active volcanoes"

"Considering Thunder and Storm literally endangers the entire country of Daleem with their Thunder Storms"

I'm going to have to ask you for scans of this... again.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know how tornadoes work; I'm a college graduate, I've studied physics, and I've been here longer than you have. I won't use the last point as a highlight, but the "No you're wrong" attitude is getting rude and obnoxious. Anyway, there is a baseline speed for a Tornado with X diameter to even form a tornado in the first place, which for 150 meters, it's 8-B as another user mentioned above.

That's literally Intro to Earthbound. There's a war against Giygas, and mankind has lost; the chosen 4 are the world's only hope. Chuggaconroy also mentioned these stuff about Itoi's statements all the time and even showcases evidence. So perhaps watch his recent Re LP if you have time. And I thought I already told you that I'm going through RL issues and don't currently have time or energy to dig for every clue.

The Nuclear Robots are still point blank range, and it only chip damages them if they have high level and/or good fire resistant armor. All Earthbound fights take place at relatively close range like arms length at most; so they'd scale regardless.

Sailor still says ship, mentions taking entire crowds, but also mentions the all dying to the Kraken and he barely escaped. It says it destroys every ship that passes by with ease. But fair point about the traveller then.

I said possibly, not firmly. It's unfair to be firm one way or the other. So possibly 7-A makes sense. We discussed the scaling being inconsistent, but same thing could be said for almost any game. But still, A > B > C scaling is generally more highlighted than exact pixel scaling if it's off. It doesn't matter if he's 4x bigger than the ship/boat or 1000x bigger, the fact is Kraken is bigger. Same with the volcano, doesn't matter if he's twice as big or just a hair bigger, the fact is Kraken is bigger.

Well the fact is, it wouldn't be much of a "storm" if it was that small. Especially if that's the same entity that endangers a country. Scan here for the leaf mentioning country wide storms. It's in Japanese, but it is there. Which Thunder and Storm possesses; it could be much higher than Low 7-B for all we know.

The Sanctuary Guardians are the ones affecting various events throughout the Earth. The Earthquakes can be seen when you visit the Lost Underworld, and it is on the peak of an active Volcano when you fight the Diamond Dog. And again, all sanctuary guardians have psychic territories that cover massive distances with all 8 of them together affecting the entire planet. Also, Volcano eruptions are more like magnitude from a distance feats, meaning they could be higher than what's shown on the Earthquake Power Chart.

Anyway, the Japanese scan is probably the most highlighted thing sufficed thing so far.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Chuggaconroy also mentioned these stuff about Itoi's statements all the time and even showcases evidence. So perhaps watch his recent Re LP if you have time

Just as a minor thing here, asking someone to watch a 61 part series with every episode being at least 20 minutes to find one quote is a bit unresonable too ask of someone. You're supposed to provide evidence to back your claims, not ask your oppoent to find the evidence for you.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know that, but people are once again, people are unaware that I'm busy IRL and going through anxiety related issues. Plus, that's only addressing the minor parts, when I received a new source from Chrisras that has the real concrete evidence. I also have been giving other sources throughout the thread.

Staff members aren't servants to normal users. We're people with RL stuff like anyone else.

 

[Podonklos]

"That's literally Intro to Earthbound. There's a war against Giygas, and mankind has lost; the chosen 4 are the world's only hope."

I know, but Giygas and his UFOs aren't relevant to the strength of the people the Chosen Four are scaling to. Giygas is only fought at the very end of the game, and the UFOs are never encountered.

"All Earthbound fights take place at relatively close range like arms length at most; so they'd scale regardless."

Still only to a fraction of the full blast. An explosion does not stop when it encounters a body, regardless of how durable that body is. It keeps travelling around the body, not imparting its full energy into the object.

"Same with the volcano, doesn't matter if he's twice as big or just a hair bigger, the fact is Kraken is bigger."

I can accept this, though we still need evidence the volcano is active. I can't see any lava in that picture, which muddles that.

If we're going to go with A < B < C here, though, we'll need to remove Buzz Buzz's High 8-C ranking, as it's based on assuming the oak trees around Ness are about 10 feet thick when said trees are slimmer than Ness is.

"Scan here for the leaf mentioning country wide storms. It's in Japanese, but it is there"

Can you... point to the line that says that?

I understand you're busy, but it would be very preferable for you to take a break, compile your evidence, and then return with that. It's difficult to address your claims when you're unable to provide the evidence to be questioned.

Well, I guess you provided it in this case, but not many people can read Japanese.

"The Earthquakes can be seen when you visit the Lost Underworld, and it is on the peak of an active Volcano when you fight the Diamond Dog."

There are indeed earthquakes in the Lost Underworld and the fight does take place on a volcano.

Why are you scaling the Diamond Dog to the earthquakes, though? I can't find any dialogue that implies they're anything but natural events. They just happen sometimes.

"And again, all sanctuary guardians have psychic territories that cover massive distances with all 8 of them together affecting the entire planet."

Same response here as the above. While I understand that you're busy, it would be very ideal if you could take a break, compile your evidence, and then return. I don't know how to argue this claim when I don't know what the evidence backing it is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The UFO's that are piloted by starmen are actually weaker than the starmen piloting them; since the Chosen 4 also fights some of those same UFOs in game.

It is actually possible to keep explosions confined technically speaking, such as with a forcefield or if the bomb detonations inside a confined space made of an extra durable element such as Adamantium.

By A > B > C logic, I generally mean overall objects rather than individual parts; though that calc is highballed for other reasons. And I think Buzz Buzz's official size was around the size of Ness's hand according to some canon manga.

I believe it's the section that says "Windy: swag palms." It was mentioned to be loosely translated that somewhere, but Chrisras said he might ask someone who can read Japanese for better clarification.

That's pretty much the game's lore as well as stuff mentioned by Buzz Buzz near the beginning. The Sanctuary Guardians are among Giygas. He makes mention about them representing the 8 of them altogether having influence over the entire world. And it's also showcased in the game, when you defeated the Sanctuary Guardian, the areas their psychic territory cover get warped. For example, Onett becomes more peaceful after the first Guardian. Twoson, Peaceful Rest Valley, and the Happy Happy Village all become more peaceful after the 2nd one.

First two may be simplistic, but Thread for instance has all the zombies and ghosts vanish after the 3rd Guardian's defeat, as well as the who dark 24/7 theme vanishing. And same with the plagues caused by Master Belch, they're all cured. Don't really have much for the 4th and 5th other than the 4th Guardian covers the country of Winters and the 5th influences Fourside. In which they both get peaceful with their guardians defeated. But 6th Guardian has the legit storm potential mentioned above; just need a proper translation is all. 7th Guardian, don't got much other than it covers Lumine Hall and Deep Darkness with its territory.

Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog does also has influence of the Lost Underworld in similar patterns. He's the one that controls the dinosaurs for instance, and once defeated, the Earthquakes do become a lot less frequent. But I guess that's a bit too vague and should wait for the storm translation.

As for back up feats, there is still PK Starstorm; which is basically a meteor shower. Note, people are trying to treat it as a High 4-C and Massively FTL+ feat, which that is what I'd call an vague assumption. Or even Solar flares, but that's also vague. However, meteor feats do have a history of being impressive. Which now that I think about it, it sounds like it would make more sense to calc the kinetic energy of that meteor Buzz Buzz came from rather than the destruction value. Now to mention the low end didn't quite do the math right. The low end radius should be 99.2 cm not 49.7. So it might need a recalc either way. Same with a standard feat for meteor showers getting a better calc.

There's also PK Ground, an Earth Tremor that at least knocks people off their feat; another back up Tier 7 feat. But I will come back in a couple hours. But I will say, thank you for at least debating in a more friendly tone.

 

[Podonklos]

"The UFO's that are piloted by starmen are actually weaker than the starmen piloting them; since the Chosen 4 also fights some of those same UFOs in game."

To my knowledge, you fight a "Lil UFO" in the game, but never the "giant" UFOs seen in the intro.

"That's pretty much the game's lore as well as stuff mentioned by Buzz Buzz near the beginning. The Sanctuary Guardians are among Giygas. He makes mention about them representing the 8 of them altogether having influence over the entire world."

I just watched a video to double check. Unless I missed something, Buzz Buzz only says that there are 8 Guardians around the world. He doesn't say that the 8 Guardians each control 1/8th of the planet.

"There's also PK Ground, an Earth Tremor that at least knocks people off their feat; another back up Tier 7 feat."

This doesn't require Tier 7 energy. I see where you're coming from, as you're modelling it like an earthquake, but earthquakes and the ground shaking are two very different things. I've been knocked off my feet by the force from a tree hitting the ground near me, for example.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wasn't pokemon's downgrades because magnitude couldn't be proven a real earthquake? Why should we assume here that this is a legitimate earthquake? Is it ever outright confirmed in the games or guides?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure the Lil UFOs are still made of the same technology, but fair enough I suppose.

For the Sanctuary Guardians, don't quite necessary mean each of them individually control an 8th of the world; each one is inherently stronger and controls greater portains than the last. But each one does still control each territory/location they are met at, as well as a few other nearby locations.

It does say it triggers an Earthquake in the guidebook description as seen on the PK ground page. I'm not too invested in Pokemon, but I need to hear more context for why and how it's not considered "Real Earthquake." Magnitude 4 or 5 would only tickle people at best and do no damage; and in order for a tremor to actually hurt someone, it would at least have to be Magnitude 6, which is Town level.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Alright can it be shown where in the guidebook it says this?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

This is kind of a derail but shouldn't the "Shaking the stars" statement in the guidebook mean something? I just googled the math for it, shaking the sun, even at 1 cm per minute, is very high end Low 6-B+.

My guess is that it means shaking the stars and making little bits of them drop onto the earth. Kind of like a cloud dropping rain, or apples falling out of a tree if you shake it hard enough. It doesn't make sense when you take into account gravity and how the tiny drops of plasma would just get pulled back in, but fiction tends to value what looks cool over what makes sense.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Actually I don't see the description for Starstorm anywhere in the guidebook. Or anywhere, for that matter. Nevermind.

 

[Chrisras]

All the English information we have about starstorm is that is an attack, so yeah RIP.

Also Numbers, what do you think about this scan?


This Scan is taken out of a Japanese PLayer's guide for the game (There are around 6 Japanese player's guide to the game, every single one with new information about everything, compared to America's 1) The part about Wheater Report. The Windy : Swang Palms seems to be a clear reference to Thunder and Storm's design, about their Palm leaf creating storm in the japanese mythology and all that. And also, some rough translation to the text talks about the changing direction of the entirety of the wind of eagleland to chommo, which should be what [this] image is referencing. It also mentions strenght enough to blow off trees if that helps see the strenght of the storm.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Starstorm is too vague to quantify, but the information regarding the palm leaf pretty much justifies that Thunder and Storm's Low 7-B rating is easily solid and could be much higher than that if anything.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

I agree with Dark

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Yeah I can agree with Low 7-B as well.

 

[Chrisras]

Nice.