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Earthbound Downgrades

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The Low 7-B feat for Thunder and Storm is invalid, as the feat assumes the storm is 8 kilometers tall with an area of 20 km^2 (that's almost 3,800 football fields, mind you), which obviously isn't true, as the battle is confined within a cave.

We cannot assume Tier 7 results every time "storm" is mentioned. The storm could've only been this big and we'd have no way of truly knowing because it is not visually represented due to how vague RPG battle descriptions tend to be.

At most, I'd say this feat gets Tier 8 results, but I'm going to have to calc it first. Until then, we're going to go about the profiles as follows:

In Earthbound, Ness and co. fight:

  • Bears (9-B)
  • Large cavemen (At least 9-C)
  • Sentient Oak Trees that can kamikaze attack by exploding (9-B)
  • Sentient Taxis that attack by revving up and accelerating (At least 9-B)
  • Thunder and Storm can summon lightning bolts from storms (8-C+)
    • The Electro Specter and the Carbon Dog should both be superior, making 8-C+ a bit more consistent
  • The Kraken of the Sea, who dwarfs a ship, and can attack by creating tornadoes (9-A, possibly 8-A)
In Mother 3, Lucas and the other protags fight:

  • A giant mechanical gorilla with wrecking balls on chains for hands (At least 9-B, likely 9-A)
  • The Natural Killer Cyborg, which practically takes up an entire room and should be far, far superior to pretty much every boss Lucas and the gang have fought up to this point, save for the Pig King Statue (At least 9-A)
It's also worth mentioning that when you compare the animations of the explosives such as the running bomb or the pencil rocket, to that of even the weakest PK attacks used by Lucas and Kumatora, you can see that the blast radii of the PK attacks cross a larger distance that even goes off the screen. Thus, it can be assumed that even their weakest PK attacks are stronger than that of the explosives, if we assume they're comparable to pipe bombs or molotov cocktails. This would be at least 9-B.

So in summary, Tier 9 and 8 are far more consistent than Tier 7, which renders the 7-C feat moot in terms of consistency, and that's assuming that the vague statement of "nuke that will nuke everything" isn't hyperbole.

8-C+ also has a good case to be made as its only about 9 times that of mid end 9-A (Which is where I presume most of the feats lie), and each sanctuary guardian that is defeated after Thunder and Storm should be increasingly stronger, but 8-A is out of the question as that feat is almost another 300x higher than that, and it comes before Thunder and Storm.

Also, I believe it would be optimal to create separate keys for the cast, since they learn stronger PSI attacks as they progress, and the casts of both games mentioned here don't consistently start fighting Tier 8 opponents until later in the game.

I haven't played the original Mother, so I don't know how the characters in that game would get affected by this.

In this thread we can discuss which downgrades and rankings apply to whom.

Also, Low 2-C Ness stays. I have no complaints with that feat.

TL;DR:

The Low 7-B feat is invalid due to a false premise.

The 7-C feat is an outlier that comes from a vague statement.

The 8-A feat is well over 300x that of the normal showings and is thus also an outlier.

The most consistent feats lie within Tier 9, particularly 9-A. And that is what the characters in the verse should be downgraded to, with 8-C+ being a possibility.

Low 2-C Ness stays.
 
Okay, I can sort of understand the problems with the Low 7-B Thunder and Storm, but I heavily disagree with the rest of the stuff. First of all, the 7-C nukes are not and outlier. They're nuclear power plants the protagonists fight regularly and tank rather casually. So it's consistent; not to mention people are far too exaggeration with the definition of outlier to the point where not many people even know what it means at this rate. Also, Nuclear Power Plant explosions are pretty much Tier 7 generally.

The Tier 9 stuff are super casual and are regularly stomped by the party, so they should just be skipped. Kraken is not an outlier either for the same reasons 7-C aren't. Also, all Sanctuary Guardians are very consistently treated as Town level or above threats, some even Country threats or Multi-Continental threats, so it would be absurd for Tier 9 characters to be like that. Also, the protagonists are obviously far above Buzz Buzz, who has a 9-A to High 8-C feat.

In conclusion, I'm strongly against characters being downgraded below 7-C.
 
Said High 8-C feat seems grossly inflated and probably needs to be recalced with dirt, but, I dunno if the crater was made in solid stone
 
I never agreed with the Nuke feat. Not only is it incredibly vague (we don't even know what happens) but we also don't know how big the blast was. It could've been a small blast for all we know, because we know nothing.

Considering that Ninten was reducing trucks to scrap metal, I agree with 9-A.
 
The guidebooks compared it to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima though; and Saikou also mentioned something about Tier 8 being far too low for the cast. And the, "Blast being too small" is merely game mechanics. Plus, I highly doubt what's intended to be a literal Power Plant is less than Tier 7. Also, the 8-A Kraken is 100% legit.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus This is a long post, so I'll number the points I make. That way you can respond properly.

"First of all, the 7-C nukes are not and outlier. They're nuclear power plants the protagonists fight regularly and tank rather casually."

1. It is not casual or regular in the slightest. The Nuclear Reactor Robot that has the 7-C statement can wipe out your whole party if you don't heal up in time, and it is exclusively an end of game enemy. Earlier in the game you fight the Atomic Power Robot, which is obviously a much weaker variant that has no such statement backing it up, but that's about as close as it gets to being "regular".

"not to mention people are far too exaggeration with the definition of outlier to the point where not many people even know what it means at this rate."

2. An outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. This is one 7-C feat that is provided by one enemy, compared to countless 9-A and 8-C bosses. It seems to fit the definition of outlier to me pretty well.

"The Tier 9 stuff are super casual and are regularly stomped by the party, so they should just be skipped."

3. "Casually" and "regularly" aren't words you can just arbitrarily attach to things. There's nothing indicating that the party "casually stomps" everything they fight against, especially since many enemies pose a big threat to the party. The Territorial Oak that appears in the Peaceful Rest Valley is capable of nearly killing Ness with its kamikaze attack, for example.

4. Many of the Tier 9 and 8 stuff I brought up are major enemies and bosses in the games as well, not just random grind fodder that appear everywhere. I can understand Bears and Trees, but the Mecha Drago, the Pork Tank, the Sanctuary Guardians, and the Kraken are all certainly not "casually stomped".

"Kraken is not an outlier either for the same reasons 7-C aren't."

5. For the same reasons the 7-C feat isn't? Refer to points 1 and 2. This feat is not casual nor regular, and you still need to tell me how I'm exaggerating the definition of what an outlier is.

6. I didn't mention this in the post, but the tornado attack only lasts for one turn as opposed to several hours or even multiple turns, so its debatable that the feat is even 8-A like your average tornado would be. I was a bit too strict on this feat in particular by calling it an outlier, but it's not 8-A regardless.

"Also, all Sanctuary Guardians are very consistently treated as Town level or above threats, some even Country threats or Multi-Continental threats, so it would be absurd for Tier 9 characters to be like that."

7. Call me nitpicky, but I'm calling you out when you say "all" and "very consistently". I recall half of them having absolutely nothing stated about them, so I'm gonna have to ask you for some evidence for this. Tier 6 Sanctuary Guardians? Why haven't I seen this stuff getting brought up into discussion yet?

"Also, the protagonists are obviously far above Buzz Buzz, who has a 9-A to High 8-C feat."

8. I honestly don't doubt this one. However the feat itself is a bit iffy, for the same reason you're not tanking the full energy of a car crash whenever it crashes into something, and it's going to need a recalc using dirt instead of concrete.
 
Andytrenom said:
Is there anything actually contradicting the 8-A? Or is it just because the tier 9 feats are more in number.
If the 8-A rating is actually viable for the feat then I wouldn't be so quick to disregard it.
Click to expand...
I've actually changed my mind on it being an outlier, but it isn't legit.

It's a single turn attack that hits the entire party, just like his fire breath. It doesn't last for hours, so we cannot assume that it's just as strong as your average 8-A tornado. The Low 7-B feat also has this issue.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus

Also, about your point on Nuclear Power Plant explosions, do you have a source for that?
 
I will be going to bed soon and I have classes to go to so I may not get around to responding to any further comments until tomorrow night (or should I say, tonight, as it's currently 3 AM here in Idaho).
 
1. The fact that they aren't instantly one shotted is proof that they aren't super fragile. And actually, at higher up levels and/or while guarding, it merely chip damages them. So the feat is concrete.

2. Except that is a super common enemy, meaning it's a very regular feat altogether. It's the same thing as saying all of Superman's 4-B feats are outliers because he regularly struggles to lift up airplanes, was severely injured by Omega Beams that were easily deflected by an ordinary brick, struggles to dodge ordinary bullets, or looses fist fights to Batman level characters. An just because a feat is singular or overwhelmingly above every other feat doesn't make it an Outlier. Saitama has a shitton of Tier 9 and 8 feats, but only one High 6-A feat for instance.

3. Those are all fodder enemies; literally the Goombas of Earthbound. And again, game mechanics nerf protagonists as they want to give players challenge.

4. And actually, nothing indicates those bosses peak at Tier 9 or 8 just because they don't have feats doesn't mean they can't scale from feats done by lower enemies. I could again use that logic to downgrade a lot of characters. See point 2.

5 and 6. Kraken generates a Tornado through sheer physical might; meaning but Newton's 3rd Law, it would also have 8-A durability. Additionally, for the same reason as the nuke feat, the party survives it regularly, and if they're well prepared, they survive it regularly as opposed to just being instantly one shotted. Also, AssaltWaffle mentioned on another thread that we tend to be too exaggerative with what outliers are. Having only one feat, or the feat being far above the others doesn't make it one; but rather, it's the lack of concrete evidence and/or required PIS is what an outlier is. It is scientifically impossible for a spammable technique to be an outlier.

7. Titanic Ant has a psychic territory that covers all of Onett; a Town. Mondo Mole has a Psychic territory that covers all of Twoson, Peaceful Rest Valley, and the Happy Happy Village. Trilionage Sprout covers Thread and Master Belch's lair. Shroom covers the entire country of Winters. Plague Rat of Doom covers all of Fourside; a large City. Thunder and Storm covers all of Daleem. Electro Specter covers the Deep Darkness, and Carbon Dog/Diamond Dog covers the entire Lost Underworld; which appears to be Multi-Continent sized.

Those are more so range feats rather than AP, but I heavily doubt they're canonically intended to be weaker than Kraken or the Nuclear Robots. Especially since they're main bosses rather than fodder enemies, like Nuclear Robots are. Again, it is the standard that RPG protagonists stomp all the mid game bosses that aren't main villains. Link doesn't canonically struggle against Darknuts regardless of gameplay implying that and instead scales directly from Ganon. Same with Final Fantasy stomping dragons and Hill Gigases, they scale from Sephiroth or Kefka ect.

8. That one I'm fine being revised.

As for the source, I vaguely recall someone bringing it up on an older thread back in 2017.

Edit: Also, don't forget about Dungeon Ma; the party eventually surpasses him in power; and Jeff's Bottle Rockets are much stronger than his stomps.
 
Saitama only having one 1 high 6-A feat isn't accurate but I feel that's besides the point.
 
>It's the same thing as saying all of Superman's 4-B feats are outliers

DC and Marvel are their entirely own ordeals of inconsistency that you really shouldn't compare anything to

That said, Saitama does casual Tier 7 feats and when being slightly more serious then normal he does High 6-A stuff

Also, Tornados are wanked

If the tornado is made with physical might, I guess, but then again, you have to ask if they're actually having the energy stop to react. Or, in better terms, punching the air really hard won't give you 9-B dura, but punching a wall without breaking your arm probably would.
 
I feel we should only focus on the feats of the bosses for scaling, since fodders are fodders for a reason.
 
I feel we should only focus on the feats of the bosses for scaling, since fodders are fodders for a reason.
 
300x on the grand scheme of things really isn't a massive jump. I'm fine with everything else listed.
 
>DC and Marvel are their entirely own ordeals of inconsistency that you really shouldn't compare anything to.

Not necessary, almost every verse in fiction has their share of inconsistencies. Marvel and DC, while it's especially true for them, aren't really all that different from other verses. Most verses don't even have an official power scaling tree which is why we have to create our own. Dragon Ball and Yu Yu Hakusho are among the only few verses that actually have an official linear power scaling tree, so Dragon Ball is actually the actual verse that shouldn't be compared to others. Marvel and DC both do have official power scaling trees, albeit non-linear with some depending on specific stat, and some details here and there are outdated. But that's besides the point.

>That said, Saitama does casual Tier 7 feats and when being slightly more serious then normal he does High 6-A stuff

I know that, and that's my point exactly. He has two High 6-A feats that were semi-serious when all the feats lower than that are not serious at all. It's the same thing here, various Tier 9 and 8-C characters are literally fodder, where as the bosses and mini-bosses are more 8-A to Tier 7.

As for the Tornado feats; okay, if 8-B is going to be the new baseline, so be it I guess. But Tornado feats can vary from Tier 8 to Tier 6, but 8-B Kraken is legit either way. He swings his tail and casually triggers a tornado; similar to someone clapping their hands to stop a tornado. I also got to note that the higher leveled Starmen regularly tank the Nuke detonations at point blank range, when the Nuclear Robots die first, and the party regularly overpowers those same. And as said before, it's really not realistic for characters to have chance to heal themself before their deaths unless their durability isn't too far below. Not to mention they don't actually die when they faint, but simply lose consciousness.

Although, now that I think about it, what would the explosion yield of a Nuclear Power Plant normally be? I don't see many official sources regarding exact general yield, but there are notable details that might back that up. In addition to Nuclear Power Plants often being detonated by high magnitude Earthquakes, they generally trigger high magnitude earthquakes in turn. And given Nuclear Robots are intended to be living Power Plants, it would perhaps make sense to compare them to those rather than the tactical Nukes.
 
It's like comparing the MOAB to the Tsar Bomba. DC and Marvel are just immensely more inconsistent.

yeah kinda

Weren't they already compared to little boy, though? I don't think we should do any calculations based on vagueness when a clear statement is made.
 
I don't think I can use outlier scaling to make regular people 1-A in very many verses besides Marvel and DC. Comparing to them as a default is rather unwise.

As for Superman, he has many, many tier 4 feats. He also has 1-A outliers. Several. Ton of tier 2 stuff too. He's not the best point of comparison here.
 
Nuclear power plants don't really explode in nuclear explosions. They're generally just regular explosions that spread a ton of radioactive material everywhere. Think a dirty bomb vs a nuke.
 
@Wokistan, that's completely different. And actually Superman has literally 0 feats that above Tier 4; everything higher than that is either Non-Canon, or simply not a feat. He fought avatars of 1-A, High 2-A, Low 2-C ect, but not the true selves. So that's misinformation right there. His highest actual feat is more like 4-A but that required outside help, is the reason that's an outlier. So those points are moot.
 
Off the top of my head there's when he killed the true form of Darkseid and was stated to be able to bust the Phantom zone if he wanted. I can see about grabbing others and sending them to your wall if you want.

There's always the classic scaling in marvel of Oblivion < Iceman = Thor = Hulk < Some random cobra < Regular person.
 
Actually, Iceman never beat Oblivion, it was an illusion

However, 4-B snakecatchers is still a pretty clear show of how messy it can get
 
I think my favorite outliers are when Darkseid got mugged and Thanos got arrested

Continuing to talk about comics would constitute derailment, but I think it's quite clear that these verses are less consistent than most.
 
Actually, that happened due to Radion; Darkseid's kryptonite, so that's not really a feat. And the Phantom Zone was a chain reaction; also not a feat. Even Batman can shake the Phantom Zone when he harms Superman with Kryptonite. Also Marvel is noticeably worse than DC in that regard. But again those were just nerfed PIS versions who lost to weaker things as well as avatars. Those aren't "Direct Feats" like the Nuke and Tornadoes here are.
 
Radion was Batman, and on an avatar. Darkseid was just coincidentally dying at the same time. Superman I believe killed the abstract form of darkseid (Maybe it was mandrakk? That's only even more ridiculous) by singing that note.

Not sure how its a chain reaction when the statement was something like "I could destroy the phantom zone if I got angry enough", from what I remember.
 
It still wasn't a legit feat; also that wasn't really Superman who ended Darkseid's true self. Also, yeah, the singing note was probably just a PIS weakness on Darkseid's end; similar to Lord Slug's weakness to whistling, or Giegue losing to a song. Or Lehra sealing away Yune with a song. Superman also usually has help from other gods when he fights Darkseid; similar to what Wonder Woman has help from other Greek Gods or blessed amulets against Ares.

Phantom Zone is linked to Superman's essence; it naturally shakes everytime superman gets damaged and will naturally be destroyed if Superman dies or something.

But okay, this is derailment...
 
I also want so say that comparing overworld enemies at the start of the game to the end is not really fair, since stuff like the taxi or the trees are just average objects turn alive via Giygas precense, thats about it. Compare that to the Atomic power robots (Weaker version of the Nuclear reactor robot, yet still uses atomic power that explodes once defeated) or the Starman (Literally stated to be the late version of the aforementioned Atomic Power Robot), which are Giygas's elite soldiers in his army. The difference in power from early average human objects to advance alien civilization soldiers overworld fodders are clearly distinct, so I feel assuming they should't be much stronger than the average object is just wrong.

Regarding other stuff:
-I also can agree with Low 7-B not being legit due to a detail such as the cave being overlooked. (even to I still believe that the storms they create should be comparable to real life storms since the palm leaf in japanese mythology is on a real myth about these being use to create real storms over towns but whatever chtulhu argument), but I do feel that late game party should definitely be no less than tier 8, since as mentioned, early enemies are literally fodder, so they shouldn't be the cause of the scaling, and while early sanctuary bosses don't display much of power output, mostly relaying on hax, we should definitely set our bar on the later bosses like the Kraken, since they are obviously the one's the kids are actually having trouble fighting, and since their feats are tier 8/7, they should be the base and then go on up from there.

-The feats from Mother 3 also don't serve much as a bar since both the tank and the Dragoo are done PRETTY early game, literally with pre-teen kumatora and smol boi Lucas, so you can't really compare their late game stats to them. Also the killer cyborg's stat is literally from size alone, so no much of a true shown of it's power either. Also that time Lucas tooked a lighting strike head on and got scorched due to its potency, clearly showing it tanked the full energy of the ligthging and yet then just keep walking as if nothing happened. As far as I'm aware a full lighting strike is 8-C. (Don't know if we still hold this true so feel free to correct me if him wrong.)
 
I'm more or less neutral on keeping the Low 7-B feat; but I'm pretty sure it's the same boat as Sephiroth's feat. The Sanctuary Guardians all actually have their own realities similar to how spells in FFVII work. So I'm still more so leaning towards against that downgrade. And even so, the nukes the Tier 8/7 stuff are still solid and Tier 9 is far too low as Chrisras said.

And yeah, we shouldn't just assume that size hammers that the characters peak at that; size it is just their to serve as a baseline and could always be stronger if there are backup feats. Nuclear Robots, Krakens, and Guardians should be where the bare is at for minimum wage scaling. And actually, Power Plants do explode Town level to City level, the radiation can actually cover country wide distances, but Tier 7 is still better yes.
 
Chrisras said:
I also want so say that comparing overworld enemies at the start of the game to the end is not really fair, since stuff like the taxi or the trees are just average objects turn alive via Giygas precense, thats about it. Compare that to the Atomic power robots (Weaker version of the Nuclear reactor robot, yet still uses atomic power that explodes once defeated) or the Starman (Literally stated to be the late version of the aforementioned Atomic Power Robot), which are Giygas's elite soldiers in his army. The difference in power from early average human objects to advance alien civilization soldiers overworld fodders are clearly distinct, so I feel assuming they should't be much stronger than the average object is just wrong.
Click to expand...
I feel that I expresed myself kinda badly here so I'ma gonna summarize it kinda better:

I feel that the power jump from the tier 9 to mid-high 8/7 is not that outlaireish when you consider the context of the enemies. Tier 9's literally being just everyday human objects that are given some little power, while the tier's 8/7 are comming from an advance alien civilization with nuclear energy, mythical creatures and the protectors of the powers from the earth itself. When you come to this, it's pretty obvious which one's are the ones the kids should scale from, tier 8/7 being plot relevant and the other being just throw away enemies that the kids should have no real problem fighting in canon.
 
Screw Tier 9, 10-B is where it's at. Because let's face it, these are just normal average children with weird magical powers, and they are completely useless without them. Now then, Earthbound vs JoJo when?

I'm still thinking, and will provide a more detailed response soon. Right now, tier 9 seems extremely low to rate these characters when these are fodder characters that they fight; we don't rate Kirby 5-A because they can easily destroy fodder characters like Waddle Dee.

"Also, I believe it would be optimal to create separate keys for the cast, since they learn stronger PSI attacks as they progress, and the casts of both games mentioned here don't consistently start fighting Tier 8 opponents until later in the game. "

Bad idea, I don't see any other RPG characters doing this. Even then, you can still achieve PSI Rockin in the beginning of the game. Through hacking, you can achieve level 100 right off the bat


I also want to bring up that the protagonist of EBB can hold their defense against the likes of Giegue, who is 7-A Unless this is the same case as Gravity Falls level of PIS.
 
Well, the EBB cast are incapable of harming him, and were only able to defeat him via a song. Giegue probably wasn't going all out against the party too, but the rest of the points I do agree with DaBigP.
 
I'm aware, it's just that four Low 7-B tanking several "inexplicable" attacks from a held back 7-A is remarkable Although, this is probably just a durability feat or hecking PIS.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus

I can concede to most of the points you have made here.

1. As for your point on leveling up, I can concede there, but I did not say it wasn't a concrete feat. I said it was neither casual nor regular as you described it.

2. The Nuclear Reactor Robot is not a common enemy. It's exclusively end game. I can also agree with Wokistan's point that DC/Marvel is not a very good comparison to make, as they are overall extremely inconsistent due to having many different writers. That said, I agree with your point on Saitama.

3. The idea of characters being nerfed for gameplay reasons is rhetoric that I use regularly, so naturally I can agree with this as well.

4. I can agree here too.

5/6. Neither you nor anybody else in this thread has addressed my biggest concern with the feat. I've already conceded that it isn't an outlier, my problem is that the tornado only lasts for one turn and only damages your party once, whereas real life tornadoes last for matters of hours or more. It cannot be a very strong tornado if it doesn't last very long.

7. As you said, these are range feats, not Attack Potency feats.

I also must say that I can agree with Chrisras' points on the context of the enemies, with the earlier game fodder being regular everyday enemies and the bosses I listed being an advanced technological alien race.

Low 7-B still needs to go though, for reasons I've already mentioned in the OP.
 
5/6. Actually, the strength of a tornado depends on the size and speed; since it's the kinetic energy of the air spinning in circles at great speeds is what holds most of the weight rather than the time it lasts. Two tornadoes colliding and canceling each other out is one way to make strong tornadoes short lived.

Though that being said, the Kraken does heavily dwarfs the size of a Cruise Ship, and Krakens in general are stated to be capable of one shotting Warships. That's Large Building level at bare minimum; total fragmentation of those ships is 8-A to Low 7-C, but sounds a bit iffy. But would be consistent with their Tornado feats regardless.

7. Agreed with that bit, but if Thunder and Storm is easily capable producing country wide storms, I have doubt that they don't have the power to create basic storms. The stuff Chrisras crossed out, might have been a joke, but there was some thought out stuff mentioned. Also from what Chuggaaconroy said, the 8 "Your Sanctuary" fights don't actually take place inside caves, but rather their own magicant like realms. So that actually could give plenty of room for triggering actual storms, but that does seem to vague.

Also, there's also Atomic Robots fought on that ship before the 7th Sanctuary but after the 6th one. Where Apple Kid said something about getting the book "Overcoming Shyness" arc. They also share the same description as the Nuclear Robots fought at end game. About them being considering Town level threats at bare minimum.
 
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