Dungeons and Dragons 1-A / High 1-A justification rewrite

[Qawsedf234]

Hello everyone. Since Ultima's tiering revision has gone through, this CRT is made to change the justifications of the current 1-A/High 1-A D&D profiles.

Rad
To me this is the most straightforward example to do. The current justification is

Outerverse level (Comparable to other Old Ones who created the Mystaran multiverse which contains an infinite amount of geometric dimensions and who are described as being beyond the framework of their creation which is further described as a mere figment of their imagination)

With an adjusted justification being

Outerverse level (Raised to the level of the Old Ones, who view the who created the Mystaran multiverse as a figment of their imagination with them being described as beyond the framework of the game itself)

The 1-A justification being rather simple. Rad did not reach his power under his own strength, but was raised by the Old Ones, which is acceptable per the FAQ

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

And being beyond the framework of "their game", being an infinite dimensional multiverse created with just their imagination should also qualify for a Qualitative difference

They can also be 1-A, if the superiority in question is qualitative in nature. That is: A "metaphysical" gap having nothing to do with additions of further composition.

Luminous Being

Current

High Outerverse level (Exists beyond everything in the Dungeons and Dragons setting. This includes being such as the Old Ones of Mystara who created a multiverse composed of infinite geometric dimensions and who's framework is considered a figment of their imagination. Views the Far Realm, which exists beyond all conventional multiverses and possibility within the D&D setting as fiction that can be freely altered and changed. Transcendent over all forms of space and time within the setting. Is the controlling presence over all Overgods such as Ao. Most commonly thought and accepted to be a stand-in for the DM of a Dungeons and Dragons game. As the head of the metafictional hierarchy who is given freedom to create any number of layers below them, the Luminous Being can place themselves as inaccessible from infinitely layered outerversal structures such as the Far Realm, its rulers, and those who sustain its existence)

Suggested

High Outerverse level (Exists beyond everything in the Dungeons and Dragons setting, viewing the setting as a game of their creation. This includes being such as the Old Ones of Mystara who created an infinite dimensional multiverse from just their imagination. Is beyond the Far Realm, which exists beyond all conventional multiverses and concepts within the D&D setting. As the head of the metafictional hierarchy who is given freedom to create any number of layers below them, the Luminous Being can place themselves as inaccessible from infinitely layered outerversal structures such as the Far Realm, its rulers, and those who sustain its existence.)

For the Luminous Being the more direct evidence of their superiority is that they are above the Old Ones in the same capacity that they're beyond the baseline of the setting. As described in the Tiering System:

Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

The Old Ones and the Far Realm themselves are part of the LB's imagination, in the same fashion that the multiverse exists within the imagination of the Far Realm Elder Evils or the Old Ones. He's beyond any theoretical framework of the realms and therefore should maintain his current rating.

Neh-Thalggu / Father Llymic / Uvuudaum

Current (in order)

Outerverse level (Exists in a space beyond all time and space known as the Far Realm)

Outerverse level (Father Llymic's true form is that of an Elder Evil of the Far Realm, a place beyond all concept of Time and Space; As an Elder Evil of the Far Realm, he enables the existence of the Far Realm in its totality)

Outerverse level (Stated to be manifestations of the Far Realm and are the absolute rulers of that place, placing them as effectively above such beings as Father Llymic)

Suggested (in order)

Outerverse level (Exists within the Far Realm, a place beyond imagination and concepts of the material world)

Outerverse level (Father Llymic's true form is that of an Elder Evil of the Far Realm, a being that enables the existence of a plane that exists beyond the fundamental concepts and notions of the lower multiverse.)

Outerverse level (Stated to be manifestations of the Far Realm and are the absolute rulers of that place, placing them as effectively above such beings as Father Llymic or the Neh-Thalguu)

The Far Realm exists beyond the multiverse on a fundamental level, existing beyond space, time and dimensions. With people capable of mathematically explaining infinite dimensional concepts being unable to quantify the Far Realm.

However, as a counter argument I can see, the creatures of the Far Realm can enter the lower multiverse by forcing dimensional concepts and limitations upon themselves. I'm not sure if that goes against this part of the FAQ

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

If it does then the Far Realm should be High 1-B+ or Low 1-A, but I want to say that since they're crunching themselves down into a set dimensional standard it may not break the rules.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

To me this is the most straightforward example to do. The current justification is

Yeah, this seems excessively straightforward. Don't see anything faulty with it.

The Old Ones and the Far Realm themselves are part of the LB's imagination, in the same fashion that the multiverse exists within the imagination of the Far Realm Elder Evils or the Old Ones. He's beyond any theoretical framework of the realms and therefore should maintain his current rating.

I don't think this is enough for High 1-A, as far as I see. From what you explained, it just sounds like Lumi transcends the Old Ones by a similar proportion in which they transcend the multiverse, which +1 level into the tier suffices for. The scan you gave for them being able to create any number of layers doesn't seem to say as much, too. Can you explain further?

However, as a counter argument I can see, the creatures of the Far Realm can enter the lower multiverse by forcing dimensional concepts and limitations upon themselves. I'm not sure if that goes against this part of the FAQ

Nah, not really. An anti-feat would be if they were literally fragmented until they were just not Far Realm level anymore. If it's just a willful transmutation into the lower state, then it's fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think this is enough for High 1-A, as far as I see. From what you explained, it just sounds like Lumi transcends the Old Ones by a similar proportion in which they transcend the multiverse, which +1 level into the tier suffices for. The scan you gave for them being able to create any number of layers doesn't seem to say as much, too. Can you explain further?

Sure, but it will be a bit wordy.

Basically, the scan is setting up a repetition of events. It is saying that Lumi is waiting for the Old Ones in the same way they wait for the Immortals. The Immortals of this setting were normal people who performed a particular series of challenges and by doing so somehow charges themselves with power. This process being called the Path of the Immortal in-universe. Once those tasks are done, they can be Ascended by other Immortals and join them. However the Immortals are not the last step in the journey, as there is another path they can follow. If they reach the pinnacle of their power (called a Hierarch) and choose to destroy themselves to be reborn as a mortal again, they walk the Path of the Old Ones. If this second life manages to once again become a Hierarch by following a different Path of the Immortals, they have proven themselves and can be Ascended to an Old Ones. That is why the scan with the LB mentions him waiting, since the last twist is that the Old Ones themselves are still on a greater path and have to complete it to join a higher hierarchy of power.

Then to explain the Old One's rating better, the Immortals are actually intentionally limited in strength. If not limited by a Dimensional Barrier, the Immortals could gain dimensional power without limitation. But, they could never get to the level of the Old Ones with that power and pursuit of obtaining higher dimensional power would distract them from the Path of the Old Ones, which is why the barrier was put in place; since it limits them to their baseline level of power and prevents from being distracted by greater multiversal strength.

So the previous High 1-A argument is that the LB is waiting for the Old Ones to complete the final path and ascend to his level, which should mechanically work the same as the previous step which is considered a Qualitative gap between those rankings. So no amount of layers or power increases in either the Far Realm or by the Old Ones would ever reach the Luminous Being, as they're operating on a higher/different frame of reference than they are.

But if it's not enough for High 1-A that's fine, I just hope it clears up any potential issues.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Sure, but it will be a bit wordy.

Basically, the scan is setting up a repetition of events. It is saying that Lumi is waiting for the Old Ones in the same way they wait for the Immortals. The Immortals of this setting were normal people who performed a particular series of challenges and by doing so somehow charges themselves with power. This process being called the Path of the Immortal in-universe. Once those tasks are done, they can be Ascended by other Immortals and join them. However the Immortals are not the last step in the journey, as there is another path they can follow. If they reach the pinnacle of their power (called a Hierarch) and choose to destroy themselves to be reborn as a mortal again, they walk the Path of the Old Ones. If this second life manages to once again become a Hierarch by following a different Path of the Immortals, they have proven themselves and can be Ascended to an Old Ones. That is why the scan with the LB mentions him waiting, since the last twist is that the Old Ones themselves are still on a greater path and have to complete it to join a higher hierarchy of power.

Then to explain the Old One's rating better, the Immortals are actually intentionally limited in strength. If not limited by a Dimensional Barrier, the Immortals could gain dimensional power without limitation. But, they could never get to the level of the Old Ones with that power and pursuit of obtaining higher dimensional power would distract them from the Path of the Old Ones, which is why the barrier was put in place; since it limits them to their baseline level of power and prevents from being distracted by greater multiversal strength.

So the previous High 1-A argument is that the LB is waiting for the Old Ones to complete the final path and ascend to his level, which should mechanically work the same as the previous step which is considered a Qualitative gap between those rankings. So no amount of layers or power increases in either the Far Realm or by the Old Ones would ever reach the Luminous Being, as they're operating on a higher/different frame of reference than they are.

But if it's not enough for High 1-A that's fine, I just hope it clears up any potential issues.

Ah, I see. Yeah, this seems like it could fall under the condition in the second paragraph:

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?

A: Generally speaking, no. The first level of 1-A is obtained by surpassing the composition of a lower reality, such that no union, combination or permutation of things within it, no matter how numerous, can attain to the higher level. The next level up repeats this pattern, so that no union, permutation or combination of things in the previous level can attain to it. And so on and so forth. As such, this proportion is already covered by a single additional level.

However, depending on the context, it can be High 1-A or supporting evidence for it, indeed. Specifically, if the statement is not meant to be inform the actual proportion between the powers of two characters, but simply their relative position in a cosmology. As, in a certain respect, it is valid to say that "High 1-A transcends 1-A in the same way 1-A transcends lower tiers," insofar as High 1-A transcends the generic quality defining a hierarchy or potential hierarchy of qualitative layers, just as 1-A transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces.

Though the scan itself is so brief that it doesn't seem to indicate what you are saying. Do you have the full page, or something that gives the broader context?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Though the scan itself is so brief that it doesn't seem to indicate what you are saying. Do you have the full page, or something that gives the broader context?

Here's the entire section that I referenced. It's in the main blog explaining the tiers but we didn't put it in their explanations due to length.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Here's the entire section that I referenced. It's in the main blog explaining the tiers but we didn't put it in their explanations due to length.

Hm. Two things:

1) This was weirding me out for a bit now, but reading brought it to my mind in full: What's up with the Old Ones being identified with the game's DMs? I thought Lumi was supposed to be the DM?

2) Relatedly, what's the inference used to say that the higher being who "waits" even for the Old Ones is Lumi?

 

[Qawsedf234]

This was weirding me out for a bit now, but reading brought it to my mind in full: What's up with the Old Ones being identified with the game's DMs? I thought Lumi was supposed to be the DM?

We took the WoG quote about them in the blog as they're more like the players at the table while Lumi is the GM. It's why at the end of the section it still places the GM/singular being above them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We took the WoG quote about them in the blog as they're more like the players at the table while Lumi is the GM. It's why at the end of the section it still places the GM/singular being above them.

Wouldn't this make them be both on the same level of existence, though? I thought Lumi was supposed to literally be the Dungeon Master, not an entity that's vaguely symbolic of them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I thought Lumi was supposed to literally be the Dungeon Master

We treated him as such due to the previously mentioned passage and a link that @Mr. Bambu provided for the the LB's page:

2.7. Whom is Ao talking to at the end of "Waterdeep"?
There are all kinds of theories, but the one that seems to make the most sense is that he was talking to the Supreme God, the DM. In other words, the reader.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Spooky ping. Thought we were holding off on these sorts of threads. Unless we're just high in whatever queue exists, I guess.

Lumi isn't on the 'same level' as the Old Ones, per our current understanding of it. They're below the Far Realm, and Lumi is above that. Qawsedf has a diagram laying around somewhere that illustrates it (humorously, even).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

(Also, I'm aware that the game establishes multiple DM-allegories with appropriate "they view it all as fiction" lore to match- there's not tons of exposition on why this is, or why they felt the need to refer vaguely to Lumi in the lore of the Old Ones as being above them, it's just what they went with, I guess, maybe they're just DMs and Lumi is The DM, it isn't specified, just the hierarchy)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thought we were holding off on these sorts of threads. Unless we're just high in whatever queue exists, I guess

We were like number 6 I think.

Qawsedf has a diagram laying around somewhere that illustrates it (humorously, even).

This one?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This one?

That's the ticket, love that thing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We treated him as such due to the previously mentioned passage and a link that @Mr. Bambu provided for the the LB's page:

Yeah that do be kinda weird. I don't see how Lumi would be the DM and also exist in a higher level than the Old Ones (Who are also meant to be DMs). Even if you say they're players, and whatnot, then that'd still result in them being on the same level, for obvious reasons. DMs don't exactly exist on a higher plane than the people they're playing DnD with.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah that do be kinda weird. I don't see how Lumi would be the DM and also exist in a higher level than the Old Ones (Who are also meant to be DMs). Even if you say they're players, and whatnot, then that'd still result in them being on the same level, for obvious reasons. DMs don't exactly exist on a higher plane than the people they're playing DnD with.

So we just make him higher in 1-A then for being the one who waiting for the Old Ones?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So we just make him higher in 1-A then for being the one who waiting for the Old Ones?

I mean, it seems like they aren't even in different levels of reality, so "higher in 1-A" seems like a stretch honestly. If Lumi is just the DM where the Old Ones are the players, then the "higher Being who watches and waits" would be beyond both of them, from what I'm seeing. In which case they're all equal in 1-A, with a vague thing above them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Lumi is just the DM where the Old Ones are the players, then the "higher Being who watches and waits" would be beyond both of them, from what I'm seeing. In which case they're all equal in 1-A, with a vague thing above them.

Well my explanation of the players was wrong going by the WoG quote I mentioned before. I had misremembered it and the story:

Along with any DM and the players who constantly mold the imaginary universe in which their heroes dwell, I share the unlimited power of the Old Ones. In that regards, can I or any DM create entire universes? Indeed! I am omnipotent? Of course! Can I, in a blink of eye, destroy billions of mortals and their gods? Yes, for I am the very substance of all energy, thought, matter, time, and entropy in all the worlds of which I dream. They are mere figments of my imagination! I think, therefore they are.

So it's more like what Bambu said. Where the Old Ones are DMs but there's seemingly another more powerful GM/DM above them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The allegory sucks, yeah. I dunno if that sort of higher reality or whatever denotes X or Y tier, but Lumi is most definitely not the same level of reality. Iirc he is even referred to in Old One lore as being superior to them (not to mention he is most definitely superior to the Far Realm, while the Old Ones are themselves inferior to that).

 

[Qawsedf234]

The allegory sucks, yeah

The only one that would fit would be like, the in-universe version of Wizard of the Coast / TSR I guess?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Maybe. The QnA on the matter didn't seem to imply that, but since all of these books have like 30 contributing people, perhaps others meant it to be something else.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump^2

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thought I already commented here but, looks good to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, back from elsewhere.

Yeah, so, from what I see, I don't believe High 1-A is warranted here, either way. Seems to be just a straightforward case of a thing seeing a multiverse as fiction, and then another thing seeing that as fiction. I've read the full context of the scan purporting that to be a full hierarchy-jump, and overall found it wanting. Just says that the Old Ones are above the Immortals, and then that a higher being is above the Old Ones, and... that's that.

Perhaps a bit to the side, but I also have a few nitpicks to make with some of the stuff in the OP. Namely:

Outerverse level (Exists within the Far Realm, a place beyond imagination and concepts of the material world)

Outerverse level (Father Llymic's true form is that of an Elder Evil of the Far Realm, a being that enables the existence of a plane that exists beyond the fundamental concepts and notions of the lower multiverse.)

The scan linked as justification seems pretty poor, as far as proving the Far Realm exists "beyond the concepts of the multiverse" goes. "Vast beyond all concept" is pretty clearly written with the same overall meaning as "Vast beyond comprehension" and etc. I'm not contesting the rating itself (Especially if, as Bambu said, the FR is above the Old Ones), and I won't complain if there's just independent evidence of that elsewhere in the verse, but, yeah.

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, are the Old Ones now equal to the Far Realm?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, so, from what I see, I don't believe High 1-A is warranted here, either way.

Alright. I can adjust the justification to just mention being above them rather than being in a different hierarchy from them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Cool.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Btw, are the Old Ones now equal to the Far Realm?

No. Old Ones see the game world as fiction but are explicitly below the Far Realm, they can't even comprehend it.

 

[Eseseso]

No. Old Ones see the game world as fiction but are explicitly below the Far Realm, they can't even comprehend it.

So are the Far Realm beings one layer into 1-A?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If that's how it works in Ultima's newfound fever dream, yeah.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

So, from what was seen above the Luminous Being is just two layers into 1-A? So no High 1-A for this verse?

The Old Ones and the Far Realm themselves are part of the LB's imagination, in the same fashion that the multiverse exists within the imagination of the Far Realm Elder Evils or the Old Ones. He's beyond any theoretical framework of the realms and therefore should maintain his current rating.

I thought that was rather explicit to being High 1-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

thought that was rather explicit to being High 1-A

Ultima is saying that he's not seeing the outside framework argument in the above the Old Ones scan. Which is what the old High 1-A rating was based on.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Ultima is saying that he's not seeing the outside framework argument in the above the Old Ones scan. Which is what the old High 1-A rating was based on.

Yeah, I get that notion. Though it's a bit weird in the sense of how High 1-A is defined. It seems to fit the basis pretty well if you ask me.

If Ultima does see that logic as rather fallible then I guess 1-A for this verse is fine as it is.