Dragon Ball Super speed upgrade.

[The_real_cal_howard]

Beerus is about 3/4 of Whis' total speed so it could scale by that,though I'm not 100% sure about that.

Speed: Massively FTL+ (Flew to a planet at 3/4th the speed of Whis)

It's calc stacking, due to the fact that people are using an entirely different feat that was no longer than 100 seconds to justify Beerus' scaling to Whis' feat. I honestly don't know why this wasn't brought up sooner.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Seemingly Beerus moved at a similar speed to Whis, the reason it was accepted is since Whis was being rushed to perform that feat, as he had a time limit to get something and Beerus was agitated and wanting him to hurry, so there was no reason to think he was holding back.

Also AT considered Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15 and we had not retconed the BoG scale yet at the time to. Also generally they are considered in the same tier, I mean Whis is somewhat faster and stronger but even if he were twice Beerus it would virtually scale.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

It's calc stacking, due to the fact that people are using an entirely different feat that was no longer than 100 seconds to justify Beerus' scaling to Whis' feat. I honestly don't know why this wasn't brought up sooner.

Because there is nothing about it which is calculation stacking.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

It's calc stacking, due to the fact that people are using an entirely different feat that was no longer than 100 seconds to justify Beerus' scaling to Whis' feat. I honestly don't know why this wasn't brought up sooner.

It's not calc stacking bro, calc stacking is using one calc as base to to make another calc and inflate the values. Beerus and Whis speed ratio is a constant value from the story, not derived from calc

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I thought calc stacking would include the fact that a previous feat determined a ratio via a calc (basic math is considered a calc), and then applying it to everything else.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the constant discussion and complaints about this feat still imply that it is too uncertain and controversial to use, but this is one of those cases when I am uncertain myself.

I would appreciate if somebody could message the administrators and ask for input here.

 

[Promestein]

I don't really know enough about calcs to offer much helpful input, but, with all the discussion and controversy, I believe it'd be safer to not use the calculation.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Agree with Prom. I'd prefer to not use it.

 

[A6colute]

I believe it'd be safer to not use the calculation.

Agree.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Considering even Yamcha is considered too controversial to deem his page being locked I don't like the idea of not upgrading Dragon Ball if it's considered controversial but if you guys don't wanna use it then OK.

Still wanting to see what Lina has to say though.

 

[KamiYasha]

I believe it'd be safer to not use the calculation.
Agree.

I also agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Since all of the admins seem to agree, I suppose that this matter should be closed then. Both here and in the blog post.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well it is controversial, but the majority actually agree it can be used for reaction speed, the only controversial part is really if it applies to other speeds as well. I mean the calc itself has not been shown to be done improperly or anything after all.

Also Lina did say she wished to show her stance on why the feat is accurate as well, so we should probably wait to see that regardless. I think it would be reasonable to say it applies to reaction speed, especially if Lina makes a good case since it is agreed by almost everybody that it is at least reaction speed, and no debunk of the calc has been shown either.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it does not particularly make any sense that Beerus would be able to move so ridiculously swifter than he can fly, so I sincerely doubt that the authors intended the feat to be interpreted as being able to move at comparable speeds to crossing the universe within seconds.

Most likely he simply prepared a counter before the energy was unleashed.

I think that it is safer to get new calculations for his travel speed feats instead.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well I respect your opinion for sure, but technically we super low balled the travel speed feats, so that may not be a big issue, and in general DB has always had faster combat speed than travel speed in the past to, and iirc feats are above author intent like with Flash, and we do see the explosion at least start before he nullifies it, and there was nothing to suggest it was countered beforehand, he even says he nullified all the energy implying it had been unleashed.

Also most do agree it technically works as at least reaction speed. Maybe wait to see what Lina has to say since she seems pretty adamant as well it is legit.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Well I respect your opinion for sure, but technically we super low balled the travel speed feats, so that may not be a big issue, and in general DB has always had faster combat speed than travel speed in the past too

Before? Yes. Now? Not really. It was there in Original, was questionable at best in DBZ, and has utterly dissappeared now since characters like Gohan and Piccolo can percieve SSG Tier characters, such as Goku, Frieza, Vegeta and Hit. Granted it isn't by much, but if they're doing it at all, and very consistently (as in, every SSG Tier fight), then it isn't PIS or the like.


I think DBS is going the "Superman route", as I recently coined it, TBH

 

[SSJRyu1]

nah that's an inconsistency they can see them fight. After all if they fight they get blitzed like Gohan and Frieza. It has always existed like that, even humans see Goku and Buu fight, ye t Roshi and Krillin in the 21 tournament are to fast to be seen, so going by that isn't really a good idea.

 

[Strmix]

Well I respect your opinion for sure, but technically we super low balled the travel speed feats, so that may not be a big issue, and in general DB has always had faster combat speed than travel speed in the past too

Before? Yes. Now? Not really. It was there in Original, was questionable at best in DBZ, and has utterly dissappeared now since characters like Gohan and Piccolo can percieve SSG Tier characters, such as Goku, Frieza, Vegeta and Hit. Granted it isn't by much, but if they're doing it at all, and very consistently (as in, every SSG Tier fight), then it isn't PIS or the like.


I think DBS is going the "Superman route", as I recently coined it, TBH

Z fighters could always perceive much faster charachters.For example Goku vs Cell when both were much faster than everyone else besides Gohan,everybody were able to see it.Even Yamcha

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well I respect your opinion for sure, but technically we super low balled the travel speed feats, so that may not be a big issue, and in general DB has always had faster combat speed than travel speed in the past to, and iirc feats are above author intent like with Flash, and we do see the explosion at least start before he nullifies it, and there was nothing to suggest it was countered beforehand, he even says he nullified all the energy implying it had been unleashed.

The combat > travel speed is exclusive to pre DBS only, it doesn't exist in Super. There's not a single combat speed remotely close to the travel speed feats, and to the contrary there are plenty which are not even FTL

 

[SSJRyu1]

well sometimes they could but other times no, like how gohan couldn't even see the saibamen, or humans can't see roshi and krillin, point is we know whether they can see them or not it in no way means they are even close to that speed and theoretically is an inconsistency since they are much slower, unless you wanna say Yamcha is as fast as Cell.

Actually this reaction speed feat is showing that there reactions are indeed superior to travel to some degree, just like in the past. We simply don't have many quantifiable combat speed feats in DBS is all.

The only real arguments against the feat are that it is way more than the low balled travel speed one, which isn't really an issue as that is low ball and travel speed =/= reaction speed all the time. And what speed stat it applies to really. Most already agree it is done properly and applies to reaction speed at least, so we really should be able to at least use it as a reaction speed stat.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

no, it really doesn't. It's a range feat, not a reaction feat.

 

[SSJRyu1]

it is both actually.

 

[Huesito88]

I agree with ryu

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to quote:

Most likely he simply prepared a counter before the energy was unleashed.

I think that it is safer to get new calculations for his travel speed feats instead.

And most of the staff do not agree with using the feat, so we are most likely not going to do so. Sorry.

However, you are free to request a less "lowballed"/conservative calculation of Whis' travel speed feats, so we can use that instead. I also think that merely using 5 galaxies seems far too low.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well, if that is your choice of course it's your call, I will always respect your opinion on the matter even if I don't agree sometimes. But I should point out that most, including calc group members agreed it was a legit reaction speed feat, the only argument was for what the speed applied to, and none had a proper counter for the feat itself.

The whole shockwave and seeing light thing was debunked as not relevant to the feat, and the whole Beerus nullifying it before the explosion started had no proof as it was not shown or implied, while we actually see the explosion at least start before being nullified, which would contradict that argument directly.

So logically the feat should stand from what I've seen. But I also understand that as this is a more democratic process in deciding what is and isn't put on the wiki, if it would really cause a lot of issues I can understand your reasoning for not using it, although I would recommend it, kind of like how we have pre DBS as ftl, it may be controversial but the calc is logical and has not been debunked, same here.

For sure if somebody would like to redo the Whis calc that is certainly a good plan. It is kind of hard to do however given we can't use the DB map, so we really don't have solid placements for the landmarks to use through the Universe.

 

[Antvasima]

If a calculation group member says that the calculation is correct, that does not automatically mean that they say that the premises are correct, and as far as I remember Alakabamm had serious reservations.

Nevertheless, since you have turned this into such a major issue for the wiki, I will rewatch the scene itself, if you tell me the episode number of Dragon Ball Super, and I can still find it somewhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I think that it was episode 13. I will check it up.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I have rewatched the scene, and given all of the time that other characters spent talking about what was about to happen due to the runaway energy, including Mister Satan asking Whis to counteract it, Beerus should logically have had plenty of time to prepare for nullifying it on his own, before it turned into a problem.

So, again, given the extremely unclear circumstances, we regrettably cannot use the feat, and I would appreciate if you stop constantly arguing about it. Thank you.