- 40,470
- 12,953
Don't get me wrong. Too much hax sucks. No exceptions.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 76
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
- Status
- 1,632
- 351
And Hit. Don't forget Hit.The real cal howard said:
- 3,300
- 2,641
Honestly, I don't think DB needs any hax. Telekinesis is already pretty OP when you think about it.
I guess I would like telekinetic/paralytic attacks to be expanded on...maybe have Frieza rip-off Force Choke? Hit already has intangible attacks that ignore durability as well as all of the space-time hax I would really want a DB character to have. Frieza gaining telekinetic techniques that ignore durability would be cool.
More techniques involving Space manipulation? Could be good for instant warps, speed manipulation, etc. I also wouldn't mind if energy spheres (Like the Spirit Bomb and Supernova) canonically collapsed into genuine black holes (Goku did something similar in the ToP but it's not perfect).
I guess I would like telekinetic/paralytic attacks to be expanded on...maybe have Frieza rip-off Force Choke? Hit already has intangible attacks that ignore durability as well as all of the space-time hax I would really want a DB character to have. Frieza gaining telekinetic techniques that ignore durability would be cool.
More techniques involving Space manipulation? Could be good for instant warps, speed manipulation, etc. I also wouldn't mind if energy spheres (Like the Spirit Bomb and Supernova) canonically collapsed into genuine black holes (Goku did something similar in the ToP but it's not perfect).
- 8,846
- 9,507
I always thought that it would be pretty cool for all GoDs to have reality warping. Idk if that's a stretch.
- 21,390
- 2,978
I read a fic where Gohan had some sort of dimensional shifting technique. Something like that would be cool for Angels. Basically Obito's Kamui intangibility but it also made you invisible.
- 8,846
- 9,507
What do you guys think about multipliers?
- 8,846
- 9,507
I know there's the whole Ssj2 thing being a stomp fest as an example of inconsistency. However I do think that Ssj2 has a bigger multiplier than just a mere 2.UltimateFlare said:
- 3,300
- 2,641
Super Saiyan 2 is definitely stronger than just 2x. Gohan claimed he only had 'half' of his Ki when he was clashing with Cell, this is Super Perfect Cell vs SS Gohan basically which makes absolutely zero sense.
There are other things that are just...weird as well. Ascended is much stronger than Super Saiyan and Ultra is even stronger than that (IIRC Cell outright states Trunks is stronger than him in Ultra Super Saiyan) so in my mind Ultra matching SS2 could make sense...But then it's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that Goku and Gohan, with mastered Super Saiyan, are far stronger than either Vegeta or Trunks...but they weren't stronger than Cell (who Ultra Trunks surpassed) so...
That would imply that MSS Goku and Gohan are at least as strong as Ascended Vegeta, likely considerably stronger, but weaker than Ultra Trunks but Gohan is a great deal stronger than Goku and couldn't do much to Perfect Cell with just Super Saiyan...even though Ultra Trunks was stronger so...does that mean MSS Gohan is weaker than Ultra Trunks but SS2 Gohan is far stronger? Then how does Gohan, with half his Ki, defeat Super Perfect Cell who far surpasses Perfect Cell who Ultra Trunks is said to be stronger than?
The scaling chain seems to be: 100% SS2 Gohan >> 50% SS2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Ultra Trunks > Perfect Cell >> MSS Gohan > MSS Goku > Ascended Vegeta > Ascended Trunks >> SS Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/Trunks
So why wouldn't Gohan just use Ultra when clashing with Cell...and how much of a gap is 'two times' in Dragon Ball for MSS Gohan to be so much weaker than Cell but 50% of SS2 Gohan to manage to beat Super Cell? Sure, it's implied Gohan was boosted briefly when he killed Cell (Goku encouraging him to unleash his power) but he also only won due to Vegeta distracting Cell so...
Yeah, tl;dr is that SS2 being only 2x SS is ridiculous. They COULD mean that it's 2x MSS (and MSS seems to be stronger than Ascended SS but weaker than Ultra SS) but the scaling with Cell and Trunks still makes that too small of a multiplier.
SS3 also....doesn't actually seem to be that strong in hindsight. It's obviously stronger than SS2 but...SS2 Vegeta nearly killed Buu with Final Explosion and Enraged SS2 Vegeta outright surpassed SS3 Goku in raw power...the only instances of SS3 Goku being especially impressive in-universe is when he first went SS3 and when Caulifa and Kale were obviously impressed with it.
It seems that the gap between SS3 and SS2 should be smaller than the gap between SS2 and SS.
There are other things that are just...weird as well. Ascended is much stronger than Super Saiyan and Ultra is even stronger than that (IIRC Cell outright states Trunks is stronger than him in Ultra Super Saiyan) so in my mind Ultra matching SS2 could make sense...But then it's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that Goku and Gohan, with mastered Super Saiyan, are far stronger than either Vegeta or Trunks...but they weren't stronger than Cell (who Ultra Trunks surpassed) so...
That would imply that MSS Goku and Gohan are at least as strong as Ascended Vegeta, likely considerably stronger, but weaker than Ultra Trunks but Gohan is a great deal stronger than Goku and couldn't do much to Perfect Cell with just Super Saiyan...even though Ultra Trunks was stronger so...does that mean MSS Gohan is weaker than Ultra Trunks but SS2 Gohan is far stronger? Then how does Gohan, with half his Ki, defeat Super Perfect Cell who far surpasses Perfect Cell who Ultra Trunks is said to be stronger than?
The scaling chain seems to be: 100% SS2 Gohan >> 50% SS2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Ultra Trunks > Perfect Cell >> MSS Gohan > MSS Goku > Ascended Vegeta > Ascended Trunks >> SS Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/Trunks
So why wouldn't Gohan just use Ultra when clashing with Cell...and how much of a gap is 'two times' in Dragon Ball for MSS Gohan to be so much weaker than Cell but 50% of SS2 Gohan to manage to beat Super Cell? Sure, it's implied Gohan was boosted briefly when he killed Cell (Goku encouraging him to unleash his power) but he also only won due to Vegeta distracting Cell so...
Yeah, tl;dr is that SS2 being only 2x SS is ridiculous. They COULD mean that it's 2x MSS (and MSS seems to be stronger than Ascended SS but weaker than Ultra SS) but the scaling with Cell and Trunks still makes that too small of a multiplier.
SS3 also....doesn't actually seem to be that strong in hindsight. It's obviously stronger than SS2 but...SS2 Vegeta nearly killed Buu with Final Explosion and Enraged SS2 Vegeta outright surpassed SS3 Goku in raw power...the only instances of SS3 Goku being especially impressive in-universe is when he first went SS3 and when Caulifa and Kale were obviously impressed with it.
It seems that the gap between SS3 and SS2 should be smaller than the gap between SS2 and SS.
- 8,846
- 9,507
El Manga Legendario, states ussj is 10x stronger than normal ssj. However I do think mssj is = to normal ssj.
- 21,390
- 2,978
"However I do think mssj is = to normal ssj."
?
?
- 8,846
- 9,507
In terms of power, the stamina and emotional tension disappear.
- 21,390
- 2,978
But Ascended Super Saiyan is stronger than super saiyan and MSS is better than that.
- 8,846
- 9,507
In the manga Goku says it's just regular ssj, but with training he surpassed Vegeta grade 2.DragonEmperor23 said:
- 21,390
- 2,978
The form itself?
- 8,846
- 9,507
Yes.
- 8,846
- 9,507
I don't think you guys understand. I get what you mean but that's not how it works.
All the transformations between ssj1 and 2 are imperfect levels of ascension that have flaws. Grade 2 drains stamina (iirc), grade 3 increases strength and reduces speed, grade 4 is a stamina saver and is just maintaining the form and grade 5 (ssj2) is the true next level.
If mssj was really 500x then there wouldn't have flaws and they wouldn't even need ssj2. There's also the 2x multiplier inconsistently. Lastly Goku himself says verbatim: All in all, regular super saiyan is best! From now on, we'll try to make Super saiyan our natural form and stay in it! We've got to work on that instability... that restless feeling.
Working on the stamina and making ssj a natural form would definitely allow normal ssj Goku to surpass grade 2 Vegeta. Goku even outright says it's just normal ssj. So with that said.
Ssj is 50x
Grade 2 is likely 2x
Grade 3 is 10x normal ssj according to El Manga Legendario.
Grade 4 is regular ssj without stamina drain or strong emotions.
Ssj2 has at least as much power as grade 3, so that's 10x ssj. Ssj2 also has no stamina issues or decreased speed so it's really a combination of all the pros of each grade.
Hope you guys understand now.
All the transformations between ssj1 and 2 are imperfect levels of ascension that have flaws. Grade 2 drains stamina (iirc), grade 3 increases strength and reduces speed, grade 4 is a stamina saver and is just maintaining the form and grade 5 (ssj2) is the true next level.
If mssj was really 500x then there wouldn't have flaws and they wouldn't even need ssj2. There's also the 2x multiplier inconsistently. Lastly Goku himself says verbatim: All in all, regular super saiyan is best! From now on, we'll try to make Super saiyan our natural form and stay in it! We've got to work on that instability... that restless feeling.
Working on the stamina and making ssj a natural form would definitely allow normal ssj Goku to surpass grade 2 Vegeta. Goku even outright says it's just normal ssj. So with that said.
Ssj is 50x
Grade 2 is likely 2x
Grade 3 is 10x normal ssj according to El Manga Legendario.
Grade 4 is regular ssj without stamina drain or strong emotions.
Ssj2 has at least as much power as grade 3, so that's 10x ssj. Ssj2 also has no stamina issues or decreased speed so it's really a combination of all the pros of each grade.
Hope you guys understand now.
- 8,846
- 9,507
- 11,135
- 14,120
Well, that simply means they mastered the super saiyan form to achieve what is called Grade 4. Grade 2 also doesn't have any drawbacks either.
There's also a scene where Goku goes to Korin and shows him half of his power in Grade 4, and Vegeta's all like- "Dammit, he surpassed me again!". So 50% of Grade 4 is already stronger than Vegeta's Grade 2 at least.
There's also a scene where Goku goes to Korin and shows him half of his power in Grade 4, and Vegeta's all like- "Dammit, he surpassed me again!". So 50% of Grade 4 is already stronger than Vegeta's Grade 2 at least.
- 3,300
- 2,641
Pretty sure Cell tells Trunks that Vegeta likely already knows about the limitations of Grade 3 which is why he doesn't use it but we know USS Trunks surpasses Cell in raw power so I imagine Vegeta isn't referring to just raw power.
I have severe doubts that Goku surpassed Vegeta THAT much just by sparring with Gohan and mastering Super Saiyan. If it was only Gohan...sure, the point of the arc is Gohan's potential being tapped into to defeat Cell but...Goku? I don't see it.
It's more reasonable to believe Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 2 but weaker than Grade 3 with zero stamina or mobility restrictions. Grade 5 is still obviously far greater of a boost than just 2x.
I have severe doubts that Goku surpassed Vegeta THAT much just by sparring with Gohan and mastering Super Saiyan. If it was only Gohan...sure, the point of the arc is Gohan's potential being tapped into to defeat Cell but...Goku? I don't see it.
It's more reasonable to believe Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 2 but weaker than Grade 3 with zero stamina or mobility restrictions. Grade 5 is still obviously far greater of a boost than just 2x.
- 8,846
- 9,507
Jesus why is the daizenshuu so wrong sometimes? The only actual ssj transformation that makes sense is 50x.
- 3,300
- 2,641
I don't see a reason for Cell to lie to Trunks like that (doesn't seem in-character for him at all) but even if we took that as the case it would still make 50% SS2 Gohan beating Super Perfect Cell as just blatantly proving the 'SS2 = 2x SS' thing out of the water.UltimateFlare said:
- 8,846
- 9,507
@Cryo who do you think has more raw power, half power ssj2 Gohan or grade 3 Trunks?
- 21,390
- 2,978
But if all MSS did was lose a time limit and didn't result in any power increase, how come Goku and Gohan were stronger than Trunks and Vegeta? If anything, they would be weaker, because Trunks and Vegeta had gotten forms that made them stronger.
- 8,846
- 9,507
Goku wanted ssj to be like a base form so he could fight extensively. Goku and Gohan were only training in their mssj states to the point where they surpassed grade 2. Less stamina drain and making ssj like a base form = better results from training.
- 8,189
- 1,377
MSSJ is basically for the stamina to decrease to what happen is that iirc Goku also says that is to increase his power output meaning that he can use the Full Power of SSJ (Regular SSJ he cant use it all like that). It's a weird way to put it but he reaches full potential with MSSJ
Just think of it like this:
Regular SSJ = 100% of potential
MSSJ = 150% or 200% of potential
Just think of it like this:
Regular SSJ = 100% of potential
MSSJ = 150% or 200% of potential
- 1,632
- 351
Actually, I think Goku explained that the process of transforming into SSJ is what drains a lot of energy, not necessarily staying into the form. Although it could be that too. Mastering SSJ means they can go SSJ at the flip of a switch, which is why we see them do that later in the series. Where as, initially, they would have this long drawn out power up to transform.
MSSJ might be more powerful by virtue of simply starting out with a larger energy pool to draw from (none is wasted from transforming), but on paper, I think it's the same power output as regular SSJ. Also, I'm sure Goku and Gohan's base form was more powerful after they left the HTC.
Additionally, with regular SSJ, the mind is a bit compromised and emotional state becomes more impulsive and almost animalistic. Master SSJ has the mental state of being more relaxed, rational and level headed.
MSSJ might be more powerful by virtue of simply starting out with a larger energy pool to draw from (none is wasted from transforming), but on paper, I think it's the same power output as regular SSJ. Also, I'm sure Goku and Gohan's base form was more powerful after they left the HTC.
Additionally, with regular SSJ, the mind is a bit compromised and emotional state becomes more impulsive and almost animalistic. Master SSJ has the mental state of being more relaxed, rational and level headed.
- 8,427
- 3,144
- Thread starter
- #196
See, this is what I always thought as well.
- 11,135
- 14,120
Don't see why they'll fight in grade 1 if grade 2 is better at everything. They should have trained in Grade 2 by that logic.
Seems to me that they trained in Grade 1 and mastered it which resulted in them achieving Grade 4 which is a more superior version, just like how CSSB/MSSB is a mastered/superior version of SSB in the Toyo manga and SSBE is the evolved state of SSB in the anime.
Seems to me that they trained in Grade 1 and mastered it which resulted in them achieving Grade 4 which is a more superior version, just like how CSSB/MSSB is a mastered/superior version of SSB in the Toyo manga and SSBE is the evolved state of SSB in the anime.
- 8,846
- 9,507
Do you have a hypothetical multiplier for grade 4 then?AKM sama said:
- 8,846
- 9,507
ExactlyUltimateFlare said:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
