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using Akira's health problems and his death for your argument, when he was like, in his 60s only, is honestly disturbing
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Dragon Ball Daima Spoiler Discussion Thread
- Thread starter StarShooter80
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So you want Moro to actually beat "Mastered" Ultra Instinct Goku, but Moro gets massively weakened only for Goku to then get ssj4 by Grand Kai's power and goes back to full health and then dragon fist him?
Fezzih_007
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That does sound what a GT fans I seen on the Internet would want.
Goku SSJ4 beating all super antagonists, when Good failed.
Like, that Broly meme.
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there is no evidence that it is canon to Super to begin with, being canon to the OG DB Manga is not the same as being canon to Super
Fezzih_007
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Omega, please don't multi post, like If you want to respond to the replies, gather ALL of them, and than respond.
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noted
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I hope they actually brand SSJ3 Water Vegeta as "Ultra Vegeta Ichigo", it would be so funny
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Wasn’t his death sudden? ATP he’s just making shit up
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As I said earlier. I think toriyama planned to have a second season but unfortunately he passed away so we might never know
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His death was sudden, but Toriyama’s health had been in decline and he was regularly visiting the hospital before he passed. This was noted quite clearly last year in March when details on his death first released, where someone he worked with even notes how one of the last times they spoke they were visiting the hospital.
Edit: How that relates to Daima is beyond me, since we have no confirmation of any link between them, but I just wanted to clarify.
Spinoirr
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I mean this ain't the first time we've had retcons or contradictions
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I should clarify. And I mean this in the most respectful way but was Toriyama’s death and his health decline related?
I think people are trying way too hard to make it canon when they could just say that it’s not. It doesn’t take away from the enjoyment other than you being bummed that it’s not canon to super
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I think to this extent shows an intention to just do his own thing, rather then some infantilizated mind not knowing what he’s doing
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This, people are calling toriyama a bad writer cause it’s contradicting super and using super as evidence for his bad writing which is kinda dumb since he only gave basic plot threads afaik
Fezzih_007
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Can someone explain why people are using SSJ4 to explain that Daima is not Canon to Super, when Shin and Kibito fusion is a way easy argument?
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More arguments are better than just one, I'd say.
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Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Yes they were intense in the anime, but lost all the essence Z, GT and other works had. No Blood, no brutal scenes like in the DBS manga and Z, generic and almost no tension soundtracks, childish soundtracks we hear most of the times, even in serious moments...., Goku and co having Zeno's button as a backup literally took down any real/potential threat for the Z fighters, not the dynamic/intense fighting Styles and hits classic Dragon Ball works had, doesn't help the fact that the sound effects do not feel like what we saw in our childhood. Black arc was serious but Z, GT, and og dragon Ball were terrifying enough to watch even to the point of parents not wanting us to watch It at times.
DBS Anime as It is now aims for the current generation, I hate that. They can do like JJK, Berserk and other brutal gore animes that are very popular, doesn't matter if they have to change the horary and put DBS at nights, that's better than a masterpiece like DBS being reduced to a Kid's show by Toei.
I want to feel the same tension, I want to feel scared for the characters, I want to feel the pain from the hits, I want to see villians getting the respect they diserve instead of a lame argument like having Beerus's or Zeno's help behind.
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:3
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I mean, he had a brain tumor and died from essentially internal bleeding in the brain, caused by veins ripping in some fashion. Which a growing tumor could cause. So potentially. It’s not outwardly confirmed, though. Regardless if it was or wasn’t, it doesn’t matter. Toriyama’s health was declining in some form.
If that impacted his work in some form is totally unknown.
I mean, Iyoku said it was canon, and while he’s not Toyotarou or Toei, he directly worked in the Dragon Room, aided in the conception of DBS: Broly, Superhero, and Daima, has some of Dragon Ball’s rights, and was Toriyama’s BFF. He’s definitely got some form of authority as WoG in my book.
His logic was pure and simple, too. Toriyama’s made it, thus, it’s obviously canon.
Contradictions? Irrelevant! Because contradictions don’t decide canonicity. The Author/Company does.
But yeah, whether or not it’s canon doesn’t matter relative to your enjoyment of the series. It was fun and cool regardless, if a little empty and bland in terms of emotional resonance.
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In hindsight of daima, Zamasu is THE dumbest mfer in Super, why didn't he just go to the convenience store and buy a third eye, dude was giving discounts too
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Ss made him turn into a 4D structure and immortal, is there anything better than that?
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So, was there any notable feats in this series? All the fights to my recollection were just breaking rocks.
Goku blowing a hole in the Demon Realm didn't seem that impressive. And the entire final fight took place on a single arena.
If not feats, any cosmology changes?
I think we only reach 50 pages off canon/non-canon discussion.
Goku blowing a hole in the Demon Realm didn't seem that impressive. And the entire final fight took place on a single arena.
If not feats, any cosmology changes?
I think we only reach 50 pages off canon/non-canon discussion.
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Goku illuminating the Demon Realm while turning into Super Saiyan 4
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One new location within the hypertimeline, one of unknown size. Makai is the origin of all Universes thanks to Rymus, so it’s a location separate from the 12 Universes, specifically, but nothing has indicated more depth or separation than that—Making it at best analogous to something like the World of Void.
Outside of that, no. I mean, except for solar system level fish.
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I understand your fondness of a heightened maturity in Z compared to Super, I'm just not entirely getting how this doesn't apply to the manga. The manga has the aspects you criticize like Zeno's button and the presence of Beerus.
Comparing the different Future Trunks conflicts. In the anime Bulma dies onscreen (albeit obscured). Anime Goku Black goes the extra-mile of killing Chi-Chi and Goten. When it comes to brutality, Goku Black penetrates both Goku and Vegeta with his ki blade. In the manga he only penetrates Gowasu with the blade, who isn't a main character or even a fighter. (He also penetrates some civilians with ki blasts.) While it's not bloody, Anime Goku breaks both of his arms fighting Zamasu and Zamasu crushes his ankle. It's purple blood, but half of Zamasu's body becomes melted flesh which is pretty crazy.
The power scaling while maybe higher and more absurd, is used to its advantage to make the villians a threat. I watched reaction videos where they see Blue Vegeta get smirked at by Base Goku Black, before he too transforms, and they have no idea how Goku and Vegeta are going to defeat him. Without this element or the ki stab, manga Goku Black kind of just feels like a stronger guy who was just somewhat too much for Vegeta to handle. Manga Goku Black isn't even given the honor of fighting Goku. Goku fights Future Zamasu the whole time, and unlike the anime where he gets some higher scaling, he becomes a non-threat against SSG. Then with Merged Zamasu, in the anime you feel like he's actually a threat to Vegito. Manga Zamasu is literally helpless against Vegito, which has its own merits, but exchanges a "tense fight" with a "watch how cool this guy is" moment.
I feel like the anime version even makes the Zeno Button less soothing in practice. The anime places extra attention to the human survivors, making them more stand out and an important part of how they destroy Zamasu's body. That makes it absolutely dreadful when Zamasu becomes an unstoppable force of nature and reduces all of them and Trunks' world to a desolate land of fog and his braindead laughing. The Zeno button practically helped them the least possible, which I think is the crux of it.
The manga version has some brutal moments of course. (Vegeta's beat down, Goku beating up Zamasu.) But to me the added blood just feels like a superficial difference in comparison to what actually happens and how things feel. Toyo gets to trade in dirt scratches, with red scratches and liquid pouring, which is nice but just doesn't seem like a big difference to me. The anime versions both feel way more tense and arguably more brutal despite being limited by the rating.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm going strong. Of course the manga feels more gorey. (I'm unsure of how the anime would compare to the many impalings in the manga Moro arc.) But I just feel like blood, while would be nice, is not a big game changer when it comes to the tension and brutality that blood seems to be aiming for.
StarShooter80
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The Third Demon Realm has a skarry sky in the intro so there's that
The kamehameha crossed the Second Demon Realm entirely in like 13 seconds, which is an impressive speed feat
Stefano4444
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I think it would had been better if Goku never knew about this form before and that its was Neva's magic to make it possible in the first place.
I wouldn't make any contradiction and i'm pretty sure people would had been satisfied since SSj4 was made canon anyway.
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So hum ... what did we decide regarding Daima? I'd say it's not canon because there are so many things that contradict canon, Piccolo forgetting how to speak namek, Shin leaving the world of demons to go to U7 barely 1000 years ago, Kibitoshin being absent also makes it at least non canon to DBS.
And regarding the power of daima characters, what was decided.
And regarding the power of daima characters, what was decided.
StarShooter80
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Apart from Kibitoshin how are these contradictions? It’s only really non-canon to Super, the original manga is 100% canon to it
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Shin battled kid buu in U7 5 millions of years prior Goku's era in the manga. But Daima pretends he left the daimakai 1000 years ago only (which means he only battled majin buu (if we refer to daima) several centuries ago (not more than 9 for it to be under 1000 years). This heavily contradicts the manga. Outside of that it makes no sense for Piccolo to "forget how to speak" namekian because he could speak it perfectly fine at 3 years old during 23rd martial art world championship. And saying he somewhat forget despite assimilating Nail AND Kami makes no sense (that's literally the same as saying Kami can forget his own language which is simply impossible because he still mastered it and talked it frequently enough to Mr Popo to know a few words. And keep in mind both he and Piccolo had a conversation in namek during the tournament). Also, in chapter 445, Shin describes all events involving Majin Buu, Bibidi etc ... as "taking place long ago before the dawn of human civilization". The Chronology also says these events took place 5 millions of years ago. Shin cannot be the east supreme Kai of U7 5 millions of years ago (or at the very least before the dawn of human civilization) and battle majin buu 5 millions of years ago AND leave the daimakai 1000 years ago (which is what Daima states).
Also this still does not answer the question regarding characters' powers: like what tier will they get? How big is the daimakai etc ...
Also this still does not answer the question regarding characters' powers: like what tier will they get? How big is the daimakai etc ...
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Cool retcon
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I really don't get the hate Daima gets, it's literally a kids' series that people are criticizing using an adult POV. People have to get that they're well past the target of that anime, it's painfully clear it's a thing for children and they do not gaf about older audiences, it was already made clear in Super when they made the airing the Sunday morning so that the Elementary School kids can watch it.
I personally managed to enjoy Daima still despite the super slow narration, it being lacking in the middle part, the characterizations not being extra deep and memorable (but that's a problem that Dragon Ball has as a whole), the stakes not being as intense as they were in Z, the Demon Realm being some kind of magical land rather than Hell itself, the SSJ4 being a genuine asspull that they justified with a half-assed excuse in the final episode, Arinsu being magically forgiven despite her plotting against everyone 1 episode prior, the whole thing of the Third Eye being sold at half price in a common shop, and other issues.
The fights were still great, the animations were far better than DBS as a whole, it had good humor, it wasn't a story that took itself too seriously, it was entertaining enough. I simply watched it with not too many expectations (as otherwise I'd be complaining about it all the time too), and I did like the ending overall. Idgaf if it's not in continuity with DBS, that stopped being a concern a long, long time ago (because the DBZ movies also weren't lmao), but people are being way too harsh on a product that's aimed at a target that is clearly not them.
I personally managed to enjoy Daima still despite the super slow narration, it being lacking in the middle part, the characterizations not being extra deep and memorable (but that's a problem that Dragon Ball has as a whole), the stakes not being as intense as they were in Z, the Demon Realm being some kind of magical land rather than Hell itself, the SSJ4 being a genuine asspull that they justified with a half-assed excuse in the final episode, Arinsu being magically forgiven despite her plotting against everyone 1 episode prior, the whole thing of the Third Eye being sold at half price in a common shop, and other issues.
The fights were still great, the animations were far better than DBS as a whole, it had good humor, it wasn't a story that took itself too seriously, it was entertaining enough. I simply watched it with not too many expectations (as otherwise I'd be complaining about it all the time too), and I did like the ending overall. Idgaf if it's not in continuity with DBS, that stopped being a concern a long, long time ago (because the DBZ movies also weren't lmao), but people are being way too harsh on a product that's aimed at a target that is clearly not them.
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