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he still flies with said staff, it is very visibly flight, which according to the standards is impossible to do when going to different space times
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Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision
- Thread starter Aachintya31
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It's possible to travel between parallel spaces, it needs to be able to interact with a different spatial axis, but it's not impossible and can be done in a finite amount of time similar to any spatial travel. That is explained in the Tiering System FAQ.
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Nullflowerblush
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The Chouzenshuu 4, allegedly, describes Warp as an ability that allows Whis to "[move] between planets at high speeds"—Interplanetary Movement. Hell, when Whis takes Goku to Beerus's Planet, he threatens to redirect his flight back to Earth, and his travel even resembles traditional flight.
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All the places in different spaces mentioned before are all called Planets, also the Chouzenshuu 4 was released in 2013, long before the events of Dragon Ball Super that are being used as evidence of places being different spaces (Unless Heaven is still considered a different dimensions). In general, that definition still isn't going against what I said about travel between parallel spaces.
Braking
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Dawg what is yo pfp
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He retired a while ago
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Let me make something clear, it's pretty face value that the afterlife is a different body of space from the living world. And Whis is able to travel between the two via regular flight; I think that's face value evidence he has dimensional travel. But otherwise, Executor already brought up and repeated most of the things people keep using to argue against aren't really evidence against existence of dimensional travel nor disprove them being different bosses.
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Not sure if this is the best evidence but in db wiki it says this about the ability warp
Warp (惑星間移動[3], Wakusei-kan Idō) is a transportation technique used by godly attendants to transport their respective gods between realms, and also time on one occasion.
Overview
The user creates a shaft of white space to transport themselves and anyone they wish anywhere through space, the user can also fly between dimensions as - shown by Whis traveling between the living world and Other World, and also forward and backward through time - as shown by Whis traveling to Future Trunks' timeline at a point in time where none of the Supreme Kais had died, thus creating a new timeline.
Warp (惑星間移動[3], Wakusei-kan Idō) is a transportation technique used by godly attendants to transport their respective gods between realms, and also time on one occasion.
Overview
The user creates a shaft of white space to transport themselves and anyone they wish anywhere through space, the user can also fly between dimensions as - shown by Whis traveling between the living world and Other World, and also forward and backward through time - as shown by Whis traveling to Future Trunks' timeline at a point in time where none of the Supreme Kais had died, thus creating a new timeline.
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This will be my last points about this
First about the requirements for 2-C and above. All that is necessary is for different spaces that don't occupy the same three dimensions to be affected. That can be done by the existing in different fourth-dimensional coordinates. That can be explained by still sharing the same temporal axis. As such, it's not necessary for the different universes to "not be affected by the same time travel", they simply existing in parallel spaces is enough. Universes having different flows of time is a very instantaneous example of existing in "different space-times" in the Tier 2 meaning, but that isn't the only way that is valid for Tier 2.
In the context of Dragon Ball, the 12 universes do share the same overall temporal axis, even the Dragon Ball Super extra material shared before here does state that when time travel happens and a "parallel world" is created, it has other 12 universes.
Second, finite and measurable travel between parallel spaces is possible and is acknowledged by the Tiering System. All that is necessary for such travel to happen is for the traveler to somehow have access to travel across an extra spatial axis of movement. Whis being able to travel in measurable time across the universes is no absolute evidence against the spaces being parallel if Whis simply has the power to move across parallel spaces.
Understanding that "different time" isn't really a point for 2-C in itself, all that is needed is proof about the 12 universes existing in different spaces/"not sharing the same 3D volume". Time is needed to be shown to be at Tier 2, so showing that the time is affected is necessary, but it doesn't need to affect as many "time axis" as there are universes per se.
I will say that if different time axis was a reason for the different universes and used to explain why it's Tier 2 to begin with, just showing that the universes exist in different parallel spaces wouldn't be enough considering that at least a singular time axis being affected is "necessary" for Tier 2 by our current standards.
First about the requirements for 2-C and above. All that is necessary is for different spaces that don't occupy the same three dimensions to be affected. That can be done by the existing in different fourth-dimensional coordinates. That can be explained by still sharing the same temporal axis. As such, it's not necessary for the different universes to "not be affected by the same time travel", they simply existing in parallel spaces is enough. Universes having different flows of time is a very instantaneous example of existing in "different space-times" in the Tier 2 meaning, but that isn't the only way that is valid for Tier 2.
In the context of Dragon Ball, the 12 universes do share the same overall temporal axis, even the Dragon Ball Super extra material shared before here does state that when time travel happens and a "parallel world" is created, it has other 12 universes.
Second, finite and measurable travel between parallel spaces is possible and is acknowledged by the Tiering System. All that is necessary for such travel to happen is for the traveler to somehow have access to travel across an extra spatial axis of movement. Whis being able to travel in measurable time across the universes is no absolute evidence against the spaces being parallel if Whis simply has the power to move across parallel spaces.
Understanding that "different time" isn't really a point for 2-C in itself, all that is needed is proof about the 12 universes existing in different spaces/"not sharing the same 3D volume". Time is needed to be shown to be at Tier 2, so showing that the time is affected is necessary, but it doesn't need to affect as many "time axis" as there are universes per se.
I will say that if different time axis was a reason for the different universes and used to explain why it's Tier 2 to begin with, just showing that the universes exist in different parallel spaces wouldn't be enough considering that at least a singular time axis being affected is "necessary" for Tier 2 by our current standards.
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Or perhaps, it could more of mean that 12 universe's share and are within same body of space, considering the scan above that "zenoh palace is a different space than 12 universe's" and in the anime that "space is made up of 12 universe's"12 宇宙とは異なる空間に浮かぶ惑星
Planets floating in different spaces from that of the 12 universes
As I said before, calling "different space" (異なる空間), does sound more how they call what is generically here a different dimension, especially considering that they put stuff like the World of Void.
Also, looking into the complete scan
They put the nameless planet in the "neutral space between universes" in the same "space different from that of the 12 universes" as the World of Void and Zen'O palace. So yes, here it's completely in the meaning of a different dimensional space and can be used as proof that the neutral space between universes is like a "neutral dimension between universes", unless the World of Void is now seen just as another part of the same universal space that all 12 universes share and you can get there with a spaceship.
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I'm not so sure about that sub. Hearing it Whis makes no mention of "space is made of 12 universes", just that there are 12 in total. Unless it's a different scene. And of course, the totality of space is shared by everything, the point would be more on the spatial regions that are separated.
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Hmm
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So... Wouldn't that mean despite being "Spatiotemporally separate" considering if 12 universe's are by sharing same time axis and separated on multiversal axis (which we don't take into account for tiering purpose as it equates to 0), just affecting the separate universes or even all together (in case of Dragonball) wouldn't account for tier 2 unless there is a mention of time being affected as well, because, all of them do not have their separate time axis/flow. So individual time axis that exist for all universes in a greater body of timeline shouldn't be default to be affected when smaller bodies of spaces are being affected not totality.
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Hop does not have any input on this to contribute. Hopefully we can agree on some definitions soon.
PrinceofPein
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Well your last point but I need to say this
they dont just have not to share the same 3-D space but they have to be spatio-temporally seperate
if two universes share the same temporal axis, then they can be spatio-temporally separate but if they share the same time, then they are not
if they can be affected then they are not seperate, Two universes A and B are spatio-temporally separate if there is no point in A and B time and space that are in both
actually not anymore, different timeflow is not really prove of different space-time, even inside the same spaces we can have different timeflows, an example is our universe, there are places where there are faster or slower time flow, even hundred of years difference does that mean those parts of the universe are a different space-time? Different timeflow can be caused by a lot of things, gravity or the rate a universe is moving or expanding e.t.c.
does whiz open a portal when traveling through these universes? if yes then that means that is not a feat against them been spatio-temporally separate, but if he does it by going super fast, then it is really prove of them not-separate
you can check out this thread it is about the new tier 2 standard
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i think that what most people are not getting is that it can be dimensional travel, but if it is done via flight, then the universes can't be space times as it is impossible to fly from one universe to another
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normal members can't tag users
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The chozenshuu 4 was released in May 2013. DBS Anime and Manga come out way after that. And guess what was also released in March 2013? Yeah, that’s DBZ: Battle of Gods, which is a non canon movie. That guidebook is heavily outdated.
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prove that the information about the technique is outdated or that it was retconed
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A temporal axis is merely a time axis that shows the direction of time. Different temporal axis with different directions of time (Or compound temporal axis with different speeds of time) is not what should be necessary.
Talking about different "space-times", the structure of space-time as a whole would be different even if the same temporal axis is shared. What is necessary to be Tier 4 before in 2-C to 2-A would be covering the 4th spatial axis of space where many four dimensional space-time (3D space and 1D time) were embeded. If this "different space-tiomes" got corrupted here over time with "they need to have diferent flows of time", it's a great problem of understanding that maybe people just didn't get it before.
I can go to that thread and talk more about it there, if not and the revision already ended and that is the current standard, then I can't do anything about it, so better to me to move on to my projects again.
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Yeah I remember the whole "Space is made of 12 universes" being a wrong translation or something.
PrinceofPein
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Well which is why I said this
them sharing the same temporal axis is not the problem but the same time. Time in the sense that, there are points in time that both of them share.
To simplify it, tier 2 deals with the destruction of space-time continuums in their entirety, when two universes share the same time, they are of the same space-time continuums so it will not make sense for the destruction of them to be counted as 2 when what is being destroyed is a single "space-time continuum" and the current tier 2 needs you to destroy "separate" space-time continuums to qualify for higher levels of tier 2
Well although it is over, you can always drop your views there, so as not to derail this thread and we can talk about it there and see what other knowledgeable members think about it.
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The revisions haven't fully ended yet, it is still undergoing some edits, it still needs DT and AKM's green-lighting to go through.
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Uh, no, it's fine. What you said is not contradicted in the latest revision. So your logic is valid. But my concern on the matter is,
Things in fiction shouldn't be default to this logic without being implied, a hyper Timeline where different bodies of space is separated over higher dimensional axis but share same time axis is one of complex interpretation. This case should be an explanation for those structures or verses where a timeline has explicit proof of containing more than one spacetime continuum or else all the verses who have different bodies of space closed from each other but are in the same timeline will be default to this logic and will be considered 2C. What's more here is, A higher dimension is something DB has never concerned itself to add more characters can physically travel from one universe to another the same way they travel from one planet to another (3D movement). This case should be left as explaination part for verses who has explicitly shown to contain more than one spacetime continuum despite sharing a timeline (they don't even need it tho ig) or we will be defaulting separate spatial bodies within same timeline Low 2C rating individually.
Also, If the volumes of 3D spaces share same time axis of the greater body then despite being separate separate spacetime separated over higher dimensional axis, the destruction of 2 universes will not account for tier 2 as it's not einstein model as far as I can see and so a time dimension will not be default to be involved w/o explicit statement.
I picked a self creating sub site to watch, wrong approach by me indeed
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The description of Warp in Chozenshu 4 is traveling between planets which holds true in only DBZ: Battle of Gods because in that movie, Whis only travel between 3 planets: Beerus’s planet, Kaio Planet and Earth. In DBS, by using Warp, Whis can also travel to realms that are entirely outside of U7’s macrocosm such as the Kaiōshin Realm that only accessible via teleportation.
Goku, Buu and Beerus all can’t fly there. And if Whis can travel to the Kaiōshin Realm while others can’t, he has Dimensional Travel.
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The point stays mute when he explicitly shown to travel with the same technique to different universes, also that there is no proof of any other kind of movements that are being suggested here that means headcanon + extraordinary claim. Also let the current topic going on end first.
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i don't think you understood the point, even if it is dimensional travel it doesn't really matter since it is done via flight, that is the whole point, it is impossible to fly to another space time
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"What's more here is, A higher dimension is something DB has never concerned itself to add"Uh, no, it's fine. What you said is not contradicted in the latest revision. So your logic is valid. But my concern on the matter is,
Things in fiction shouldn't be default to this logic without being implied, a hyper Timeline where different bodies of space is separated over higher dimensional axis but share same time axis is one of complex interpretation. This case should be an explanation for those structures or verses where a timeline has explicit proof of containing more than one spacetime continuum or else all the verses who have different bodies of space closed from each other but are in the same timeline will be default to this logic and will be considered 2C. What's more here is, A higher dimension is something DB has never concerned itself to add more characters can physically travel from one universe to another the same way they travel from one planet to another (3D movement). This case should be left as explaination part for verses who has explicitly shown to contain more than one spacetime continuum despite sharing a timeline (they don't even need it tho ig) or we will be defaulting separate spatial bodies within same timeline Low 2C rating individually.
Also, If the volumes of 3D spaces share same time axis of the greater body then despite being separate separate spacetime separated over higher dimensional axis, the destruction of 2 universes will not account for tier 2 as it's not einstein model as far as I can see and so a time dimension will not be default to be involved w/o explicit statement.
I picked a self creating sub site to watch, wrong approach by me indeed
am I a joke to you?
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Indeed
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That heavily depends on the context of the verse. If a verse show that characters in it can fly/travel from one space-time to another, so be it. These works are made by mangaka, not scientists/cosmologists. They don’t know anything about how universes/space-times/timelines works.
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It’s not normal flight Whis is legit shown creating a white shaft that people can go into that allows him to travel to realms that are said to be enterable only via teleportation
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@Executor_N0 see, that is why I was saying. A interpretation this complex such as sharing time axis and all shouldn't be default especially when the timeline itself don't have proof of containing more than one spacetime continuum. Fiction do not tend to use such a complex logic.
Accessible via teleportation is not "only teleportation", different universes can be travelled to via whis normal flight/warp which he usually shown to use even when travelling from one planet to another, it's just a fastest way to fly but in the end, a 3D movement.
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it is normal flight through the space between different spatial dimensions, being a normal flight is not the problem, being flight at all is, plus people already showed that the space that separates universes is just a cosmos with planets starts and what not, not being close to the higher dimension that separates two different space times
Nullflowerblush
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In the Daizenshuu.
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you two, stop repeating the same refuted argument, and let admins and moderators comment here
If we don't stop commenting here it will have more than ten pages and with even refuted arguments, this isn't leading anywhere.
If we don't stop commenting here it will have more than ten pages and with even refuted arguments, this isn't leading anywhere.
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It says it’s only accessible via teleportation Whis’s staff has been shown to be a different method of transport that’s not like normal flight and I explained why in my earlier comment stop making me repeat the same argument
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