Dragon Ball Android Saga CRT

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Just relooked in DBZ Goku's profile and it says:

"Attack Potency: Small Star level+, Star level as a Super Saiyan (Much stronger than he was previously, easily blocked Trunks' slashes with his finger before becoming stronger for the confrontation with the androids)"

However, that implies that post-Yardrat Base Goku can already match his previous Super Saiyan self and Mecha-Frieza.

Also that would mean that Base Goku would match Super Saiyan Future Trunks, since in his AP justification it's written:

"Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level, Small Star level+ as a Super Saiyan (Curb-stomped Mecha-Frieza, who was superior to final form Frieza)"

However, both are completely absurd, since in the future timeline it was said that Goku still needed Super Saiyan to defeat Frieza and King Cold, and in the present timeline he used his Super Saiyan form to block Super Saiyan Future Trunks' slashes

There's also the issue that the difference between "Small Star level+" and "Star level" is less than 2 times


My suggestions:

Downgrade early Android Saga base characters from Low 4-C+ to At least High 5-A, since while both Post-Yardrat Base Goku and Pre-HBTC Vegeta got stronger in their bases, there isn't anything showing by how much they got stronger up to this point, hence why their base forms should be rated as "At least High 5-A"

Only Goku and Vegeta's profiles are really affected by this CRT since Future Trunks' base form is already rated as "At least High 5-A"

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also that would mean that Base Goku would match Super Saiyan Future Trunks, since in his AP justification it's written:

That does not mean that. Post-Yardrat Goku scaling to Final Form Frieza does not mean he scales to Super Saiyan Future Trunks, considering Trunks effortlessly fodderized Mecha Frieza who is more powerful than he was before. SSJ Goku also effortlessly blocked all of SSJ Trunks' sword slashes, although neither of them were going at it 100%.

since in the future timeline it was said that Goku still needed Super Saiyan to defeat Frieza and King Cold, and in the present timeline he used his Super Saiyan form to block Super Saiyan Future Trunks' slashes

I don't believe the fight between Future Goku and the future versions of Mecha Frieza and King Cold is ever described, so whether or not he used Super Saiyan is up in the air, but he most likely used Super Saiyan. But even then, assuming the present and future Post-Yardrat Gokus possessed the same power, he too should have been able to effortlessly fodderize Frieza and King Cold, so this point is null. Also, Goku only went Super Saiyan because Trunks asked him to, so that point is also null.

But, I do agree with the CRT.

Trunks being "At least High 5-A" while Goku and Vegeta are Low 4-C+ makes no sense given how Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks are depicted as being in the same league, with Trunks being behind the former two, but not by a vast margin. I believe they're rated as Low 4-C+ now via scaling to Dr. Gero and Android 19, who are considered comparable to Final Form Frieza, but that's being revised right now, too.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That does not mean that. Post-Yardrat Goku scaling to Final Form Frieza does not mean he scales to Super Saiyan Future Trunks, considering Trunks effortlessly fodderized Mecha Frieza who is more powerful than he was before. SSJ Goku also effortlessly blocked all of SSJ Trunks' sword slashes, although neither of them were going at it 100%.

Goku turned SSJ to block SSJ Trunks' attacks, but if his base is already Low 4-C+, he would be enough to give Future Trunks a good fight even when remaining in base, My issue is not with their Super Saiyan states, but rather their base forms scaling to Low 4-C+, which SSJ Trunks and 100%/Mecha Frieza scale to that tier as well. Just assuming Goku after Yardrat can match 100%/Mecha Frieza in his base with no evidence supporting it is absurd

Unrelated, but I'm pretty sure SSJ Future Trunks in general should be 4-C since:

SSJ Future Trunks >> Mecha Frieza >=Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku (as Frieza stated his Mecha Frieza form might be able to defeat SSJ Goku on Namek) > 100% Frieza = 70 Tenatons (And I'm pretty sure Frieza scales above it according to DDM's blog)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yeah, SSJ Trunks being 4-C also ties into the whole same league as Goku and Vegeta thing. Him casually one-shotting Mecha Frieza should be enough to warrant it.

 

[Omegas03]

Cell saga profiles in general feel a bit weird. Do they jump from a High 5-A feat (Frieza) to straight up 4-C and even High 4-C (two/three whole tiers) due to massive gains and multipliers? Just curious.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We had multiple discussions regarding the scaling...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Cell saga profiles in general feel a bit weird. Do they jump from a High 5-A feat (Frieza) to straight up 4-C and even High 4-C (two/three whole tiers) due to massive gains and multipliers? Just curious.

Like, Goku from the beginning of the Android Saga to the Cell Games? Because, given how Full Power Super Saiyan yields the same power increase as basic Super Saiyan, the difference between him and the heavily suppressed Cell he fought would only be 50x, which is enough to put him above Imperfect Cell at the very least.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What I'm saying here is that Base Post-Yardrat Goku and Base Vegeta during the fight with Android 19 shouldn't be Low 4-C+, since there's no evidence for them becoming so strong and surpassing 100% Frieza in Base

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I believe one reason might be that base Goku was able to keep up with Piccolo in sparring matches; in which they both grew quite a bit. And Piccolo eventually grew to be "Almost as strong as a Super Saiyan".

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I believe one reason might be that base Goku was able to keep up with Piccolo in sparring matches; in which they both grew quite a bit. And Piccolo eventually grew to be "Almost as strong as a Super Saiyan".

Wouldn't what you said mean that Base Goku and Piccolo are almost as strong as SSJ Goku? How can Base Goku nearly match his SSJ form?

 

[Deako97]

Wouldn't what you said mean that Base Goku and Piccolo are almost as strong as SSJ Goku? How can Base Goku nearly match his SSJ form?

By being 2x to 49x stronger than when he came back to earth in base how else?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

By being 2x to 49x stronger than when he came back to earth in base how else?

Do you have any scans or statments that said he got that much stronger between the end of the Frieza Saga and his arrival on earth? Since the first Android Saga key also includes a Low 4-C+ Base Post-Yardrat Goku

 

[Nullflowerblush]

After training on Yardrat, Goku is still at "At least High 5-A", since he has no other feats to warrant a higher tier. As for his Super Saiyan form, he'd be 4-C for scaling to SSJ Future Trunks, who one-shot Mecha Frieza who's even stronger than he was before, with Namek Saga Frieza being Low 4-C+.

Then, he trained for three years alongside Gohan and Piccolo, but that isn't enough to warrant a higher tier, so he's still "At least High 5-A" but higher, with his Super Saiyan form still being 4-C. He succumbed to the heart virus, went inactive for some time, and went to train in the Room of Spirit and Time.

After training with Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time for a year, he grew so powerful that in his ordinary Super Saiyan form and while going 50%, his aura left the other Z-Fighters, sans Gohan, in awe. Goku considered himself to be more advanced than Vegeta after his training, but this is simply acknowledging the fact that Goku developed the perfect Super Saiyan form. A heavily suppressed Perfect Cell effortlessly bullied Super Vegeta and then exchanged blows with Super Trunks, although he admitted Trunks was more powerful than him, and Goku kept up with a more powered up Cell, meaning that FPSSJ Goku > Super Vegeta and possibly Super Trunks, and considering how big a leap the powered up Grades of Super Saiyan are, it isn't too far-fetched to claim that base Post-RoSaT Goku is comparable to the Post-RoSaT Super Saiyans.

Pre-RoSaT (Post-Yardrat and Post-3 Year Training) Goku, Post-3 Year Training Vegeta, and Pre-RoSaT Future Trunks should all be "At least Dwarf Star level, Star level as a Super Saiyan".

Post-RoSat Goku should be "At least Star level after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, at least Large Star level as a Full Power Super Saiyan" like he already is.

Pre-RoSaT Goku and Post-3 Year Training Vegeta being Small Star level+ in base would seem to imply that they're capable of contending with Final Form Frieza in their base forms, but there is nothing to suggest that. Along with that, they both scale to Future Trunks, who needed to go Super Saiyan in order to defeat Frieza. Although granted, he did one-shot Frieza after doing so.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

After training on Yardrat, Goku is still at "At least High 5-A", since he has no other feats to warrant a higher tier. As for his Super Saiyan form, he'd be 4-C for scaling to SSJ Future Trunks, who one-shot Mecha Frieza who's even stronger than he was before, with Namek Saga Frieza being Low 4-C+.

Then, he trained for three years alongside Gohan and Piccolo, but that isn't enough to warrant a higher tier, so he's still "At least High 5-A" but higher, with his Super Saiyan form still being 4-C. He succumbed to the heart virus, went inactive for some time, and went to train in the Room of Spirit and Time.

After training with Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time for a year, he grew so powerful that in his ordinary Super Saiyan form and while going 50%, his aura left the other Z-Fighters, sans Gohan, in awe. Goku considered himself to be more advanced than Vegeta after his training, but this is simply acknowledging the fact that Goku developed the perfect Super Saiyan form. A heavily suppressed Perfect Cell effortlessly bullied Super Vegeta and then exchanged blows with Super Trunks, although he admitted Trunks was more powerful than him, and Goku kept up with a more powered up Cell, meaning that FPSSJ Goku > Super Vegeta and possibly Super Trunks, and considering how big a leap the powered up Grades of Super Saiyan are, it isn't too far-fetched to claim that base Post-RoSaT Goku is comparable to the Post-RoSaT Super Saiyans.

Pre-RoSaT (Post-Yardrat and Post-3 Year Training) Goku, Post-3 Year Training Vegeta, and Pre-RoSaT Future Trunks should all be "At least Dwarf Star level, Star level as a Super Saiyan".

Post-RoSat Goku should be "At least Star level after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, at least Large Star level as a Full Power Super Saiyan" like he already is.

Pre-RoSaT Goku and Post-3 Year Training Vegeta being Small Star level+ in base would seem to imply that they're capable of contending with Final Form Frieza in their base forms, but there is nothing to suggest that. Along with that, they both scale to Future Trunks, who needed to go Super Saiyan in order to defeat Frieza. Although granted, he did one-shot Frieza after doing so.

That's pretty much what I was saying in the CRT, and why I suggested to dowgrade Pre-RoSaT Goku and Post-3 Year Training Vegeta's base forms from Low 4-C+ to At least High 5-A

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The 50x multiplier is only consistent during the first battle with Frieza; after that, SSJ multipliers tend to be very inconsistent and all over the place. Sometimes that gap is actually bigger than 50x while other times it's barely even 2x based on portrayals.

But still, base Goku still got a lot stronger than he was on Namek or when he spared with Trunks. And Piccolo was able to overpower Android 20 who should be superior to Android 19. And this is despite Android 20 absorbing some of Piccolo's energy to grow stronger, and Gero even said his power alone if he were to absorb all of it that it he would grow to be strong enough to beat Vegeta. And it was Krillin who sensed Piccolo's power and claimed it was almost as strong as a Super Saiyan.

 

[Deako97]

Do you have any scans or statments that said he got that much stronger between the end of the Frieza Saga and his arrival on earth? Since the first Android Saga key also includes a Low 4-C+ Base Post-Yardrat Goku

I never said goku became that strong i just merely explained how

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But still, base Goku still got a lot stronger than he was on Namek or when he spared with Trunks. And Piccolo was able to overpower Android 20 who should be superior to Android 19. And this is despite Android 20 absorbing some of Piccolo's energy to grow stronger, and Gero even said his power alone if he were to absorb all of it that it he would grow to be strong enough to beat Vegeta. And it was Krillin who sensed Piccolo's power and claimed it was almost as strong as a Super Saiyan.

Yes, but the first Android Saga key is also refferencing his Post-Yardrat key, not just his Post 3 year training for the Androids self, meaning you also mean Base Goku from the time he sparred with Future Trunks would be comparable to 100% Frieza or his previous SSJ self, in which there's no evidence to suggest he already could fight equally with 100% Frieza / his previous SSJ form in base

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Piccolo was able to overpower Android 20 who should be superior to Android 19. And this is despite Android 20 absorbing some of Piccolo's energy to grow stronger, and Gero even said his power alone if he were to absorb all of it that it he would grow to be strong enough to beat Vegeta. And it was Krillin who sensed Piccolo's power and claimed it was almost as strong as a Super Saiyan.

The cover image for The Risky Decision seems to imply Goku trained with Piccolo and Gohan as a Super Saiyan, so there's not really any solid grounding for base Goku scaling to Piccolo. In fact, since Dr. Gero tanked Goku's punch, he'd be comparable to if not more powerful than Goku, and Piccolo effortlessly negged him, so there's no way Post-3 Year Training Goku and Piccolo are comparable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose point taken for that instance; but Goku had a heart virus during that time, so he never actually got a chance to use his full strength. It's even speculated whether or not Vegeta actually surpassed him; I can see him being stronger than Goku was when he sparred with Trunks, but Goku'a power at the time is actually unknown; though he was still weaker than Imperfect Cell, Android 16, and Kami fused Piccolo for sure heart virus or not.

I suppose At least High 5-A, likely far higher for their base forms is fine.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I suppose point taken for that instance; but Goku had a heart virus during that time, so he never actually got a chance to use his full strength. It's even speculated whether or not Vegeta actually surpassed him; I can see him being stronger than Goku was when he sparred with Trunks, but Goku'a power at the time is actually unknown; though he was still weaker than Imperfect Cell, Android 16, and Kami fused Piccolo for sure heart virus or not.

I suppose At least High 5-A, likely far higher for their base forms is fine.

There's the comment by Android 17 that a healthy SSJ Goku during would be stronger than him after the two fought in Dragon Ball Super. That also appears on the wiki.
It's also very unlikely that Vegeta surpassed Goku (at least when he's healthy) during the Android Saga since:

1) Goku has more experience with SSJ, getting the form about 4 years before Vegeta, whilev the latter got it only right before the fight with the Androids
2) Goku trained with Piccolo and Gohan during that 3 years time-skip, the former is almost as strong as SSJ Goku. While Vegeta on the other hand, trained alone

On an unrelated note, does that mean that this CRT is accepted?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm positive a healthy Goku would have been still stronger at the time.

I suppose so.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok. So I need Goku and Vegeta's pages to be unlocked to do the changes

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Bump. Still need the profiles to be unlocked to complete the revision

 

[ByAsura]

If Base Android Saga Goku is Small Star level+, it's probably because of a mistake I made while revising the profiles. My original CRT where we discussed the new Small Star level+ (from the previous Small Star level) Super Saiyan/Frieza ratings never had him at this level. To say he's even beyond Dwarf Star level in base is never proven, and would actually make him Large Star level as a regular Super Saiyan.

Also, adding more fuel to the 50x multiplier, it's stated that Frieza was at even less than half power.

I actually have information that Gero is on par-ish with Frieza. I'll post it in a second along with some other stuff.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If Base Android Saga Goku is Small Star level+, it's probably because of a mistake I made while revising the profiles. My original CRT where we discussed the new Small Star level+ (from the previous Small Star level) Super Saiyan/Frieza ratings never had him at this level. To say he's even beyond Dwarf Star level in base is never proven, and would actually make him Large Star level as a regular Super Saiyan.

Also, adding more fuel to the 50x multiplier, it's stated that Frieza was at even less than half power.

I actually have information that Gero is on par-ish with Frieza. I'll post it in a second along with some other stuff.

So do you accept this too?

If so then I still need Goku and Vegeta's profiles to be unlocked

 

[ByAsura]

Just Goku and Vegeta? I can unlock them.

Edit: Future Trunks is also small star level+.

They're unlocked. Tell me when you're finished.

I suppose I can bring up Android Saga scaling in another thread.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Just Goku and Vegeta? I can unlock them.

Edit: Future Trunks is also small star level+.

They're unlocked. Tell me when you're finished.

I suppose I can bring up Android Saga scaling in another thread.

Thank you. As for Android Saga scaling, that should probably be done too since now it's kind of a mess

 

[ByAsura]

No problem.

Do you mean in this thread?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No. This thread is done

Scaling of the Android Saga should probably have a thread of its own

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. Have you completed the edits?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm going to bed now. Please contact an administrator to close the pages once you've finished.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok. Have you completed the edits?

I completed the edits I think. You can probably lock the pages and close this thread now