Dr. Gero and Android 19 upgrade and slight revisions

[Nullflowerblush]

Both Dr. Gero and Android 19 are rated as Low 4-C and FTL+ via scaling to Frieza. However, there is nothing to support the idea that they are comparable to Frieza in-universe. Instead, they should scale to base Android Saga Goku with Dr. Gero tanking Goku's punch to the face. This would bring them up to Small Star level+, or possibly even Star level in the case of Gero, as well, but bring them down to "At least FTL". Also, Dr. Gero actually threatened Goku and Tien with his laser beams, forcing them to dodge them, and was initially confident that both he and Android 19 were capable of handling Super Saiyan Goku's power, despite his power far surpassing Gero's previous calculations. And, the fact that they grow stronger through Energy Absorption should be noted in their stats with a little higher rating.

Dr. Gero is an Energy Absorption Model Android and not an Infinite Energy Model, so his stamina rating should be the same as Android 19's.

They both should be given Immortality (Type 1) since they do not age as a result of being fully robotic, with the only organic part of Dr. Gero being his brain, which I believe would also give them Self-Sustenance. And, all mentions of "ki blasts" should be replaced with "energy blasts", since they don't have Ki (stated in-universe), rather a unique energy which they convert absorbed Ki into (stated in Daizenshuu 7).

Dr. Gero​

Attack Potency: Likely Star level (Scales to his durability. Is stronger than Android 19. Threatened Goku and Tien with his lasers. Was initially confident that he and Android 19 could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains onto his own)

Speed: At least FTL (Should be comparable to base Goku in the Android Saga, with he and Tien only narrowly dodging his lasers), higher after absorbing energy (Super Saiyan Vegeta was shocked by Gero's speed after he absorbed Vegeta's energy blast, and he managed to escape Vegeta's vision)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: Likely Star Class

Durability: Likely Star level (Was unfazed by a punch from an angered Goku, and is stronger than Android 19), higher after absorbing energy (Took several blows from an unweighted Piccolo after draining him of his power and absorbing Vegeta's energy blast, but resorted to fleeing when he was surrounded by the other Z-Fighters, including Super Saiyan Vegeta)

Stamina: Extremely high, can keep on fighting for unlimited periods of time by replenishing its power by absorbing his opponent's energy

Android 19​

Attack Potency: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Scales to his durability and is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount. Dr. Gero was initially confident that he and Android 19 could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains onto his own and became more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku after absorbing his Kamehameha and ultimately defeated him, nearly killing him if not for the interference of Vegeta)

Speed: At least FTL (Is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount, and possesses the same basic abilities as him. Effortlessly dodged Dr. Gero's lasers from close range), higher after absorbing energy (Became more powerful than Super Saiyan Goku and kept up with him in the ensuing fight, eventually outclassing and nearly killing him)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least Small Star Class+, possibly Star Class

Durability: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Took several attacks from Super Saiyan Goku after his heart virus began to take effect, and survived long enough to absorb his energy), higher after absorbing energy (Survived an onslaught from Super Saiyan Vegeta after absorbing Goku's Kamehameha, but was ultimately destroyed)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Makes sense to me.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Looks good to me.

 

[KingTempest]

Agreed

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Well keep in mind Goku was afflicted with rhe Heart Virus and it was affecting him by this point.

 

[senseikeleon]

Seems fine I agree

 

[LightReinh12345]

Agree

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah that seems ok. Though Goku was suffering from the Heart Virus' effects in that same day so Super Saiyan Goku was clearly not at his full power when he fought 19 and 20

 

[GojiBoyForever]

^

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think everything is fine, but I don't have any idea how to compare ill Goku's power to that of his healty self.
Just a thing, is it safe to assume Gero's brain can last forever? It's still organic, after all.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think everything is fine, but I don't have any idea how to compare ill Goku's power to that of his healty self.
Just a thing, is it safe to assume Gero's brain can last forever? It's still organic, after all.

Trunks stated that a healthy SSJ Goku would be enough for the three of them (Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) to defeat both Android 18 and Android 17, and that's why he warned Vegeta and insisted they'll wait for Goku

Pretty sure Gero's brain would last, but likely as long as he has energy, since unlike 17 and 18, he doesn't have infinite stamina

 

[Damage3245]

Attack Potency: Likely Star level (Scales to his durability.)

Why even mention this bit if he has everything else in his justification for his AP? I think it would be better if that line were removed.

Also, Gero's durability feat comes from base Goku.

If Android 19's durability is At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level, for taking multiple hits from Super Saiyan Goku, then shouldn't Gero be at least the same?

 

[Tllmbrg]

CRT seems okay

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I think everything is fine, but I don't have any idea how to compare ill Goku's power to that of his healty self.

I'm pretty sure the heart virus only began to hinder Goku after he became a Super Saiyan, since apparently, that hastens its effects, although Vegeta noted that there were faint signs of the virus being active inside of Goku prior to the fight that he chose to ignore. Still, I doubt the relatively inactive virus weakened Goku, prior to the fight, to the point he was no longer Low 4-C+. At worst, he'd be Low 4-C but close to a +, which is enough to warrant a "Likely 4-C" since Gero no-sold Goku's punch.

Just a thing, is it safe to assume Gero's brain can last forever? It's still organic, after all.

Is this in response to the Immortality or the Self-Sustenance? Because the Daizenshuu states that Dr. Gero became an Android to attain eternal life, Bulma theorized that Gero became an Android to attain eternal life, and I think Gero himself said he did it to attain eternal life.

Why even mention this bit if he has everything else in his justification for his AP? I think it would be better if that line were removed.

Also, Gero's durability feat comes from base Goku.

If Android 19's durability is At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level, for taking multiple hits from Super Saiyan Goku, then shouldn't Gero be at least the same?

It's fair to ditch the durability thing. That was a thought I had at the start of writing the CRT before I can began to gather up the stuff like him threatening Goku and Tien or being more powerful than Android 19.

Gero's durability is higher. "Likely Star level" comes from the fact that he tanked a punch from a Small Star level+ Goku, which should honestly be enough to warrant a straight-up Star level rating. Along with that, he is also stronger than Android 19, which adds to the justifications.

Android 19 has "At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level" durability because he downscales from Dr. Gero and because he took a prolonged beating, albeit with major injuries, from Super Saiyan Goku after his heart virus began to kick in and slow him down. The reason he does not also scale to "Likely Star level" is because SSJ Goku was still "dimensions" ahead of him and the Z-Fighters, being able to effortlessly no-sell his attacks and bully him around until his body really started to give in. And even after he was growing weary and exhausted, he still managed to overpower and ragdoll 19.

 

[Damage3245]

Likely Star level" comes from the fact that he tanked a punch from a Small Star level+ Goku, which should honestly be enough to warrant a straight-up Star level rating.

Tanking a punch from a Small Star level+ character seems like justification for a Small Star level+ rating. Unless that Small Star level+ rating is extremely close to that next tier.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So, just Small Star level+ or "At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level" for the both of them, given the Super Saiyan Goku stuff?

 

[Damage3245]

I think "At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level" for both of them could be okay.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What Type of Self-Sustenance would they have for being (mostly) completely robotic?

 

[Damage3245]

Android 19 should get all three.

I'm not sure about Dr. Gero getting Type 1 since he does have an organic brain which would logically require Oxygen unless stated otherwise.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Well is his jar brain filled with some sort of special substance or is it juts literally "a brain in a robot"?
If it's the latter then he might warrant type 2 and 3 since I can't think of a way for the brain to get stuff like food and water

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It’s literally just brain in robot.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Then type 2 and 3 unless there's an explanation for this

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Inorganic Physiology (Type 2), Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2, and 3), and Immortality (Type 1; Is entirely mechanical) for Android 19.

Immortality (Types 1 and 2; Attained eternal life after mechanizing himself and survived being punched through the chest and decapitated), Self-Sustenance (Types 2 and 3; With the exception of his brain, his body is entirely mechanical) for Dr. Gero.

 

[Omegas03]

I disagree with the AP revision. Tien noted that the Initial Sick SSJ Goku who fought 19 was far stronger than Yardrat SSJ Goku yet 19 was able to somewhat keep up with him and SSJ Vegeta.

Also everyone genuinely thought 19 and 20 were the Androids Trunks talked about, even Piccolo mentions this.

This wouldn't make sense if they were only Base Saiyan tier.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I disagree with the AP revision. Tien noted that the Initial Sick SSJ Goku who fought 19 was far stronger than Yardrat SSJ Goku yet 19 was able to somewhat keep up with him and SSJ Vegeta.

Also everyone genuinely thought 19 and 20 were the Androids Trunks talked about, even Piccolo mentions this.

Scans?

This wouldn't make sense if they were only Base Saiyan tier.

They’re not base Goku tier. The OP said they’d be stronger than Base Goku but weaker than ssj Goku.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Tien noted that the Initial Sick SSJ Goku who fought 19 was far stronger than Yardrat SSJ Goku

No he didn't. When Goku became a Super Saiyan in the fight against Android 19, Tien commented that their powers, as in his and Goku's, were "dimensions apart". He never stated that heart virus-stricken SSJ Goku was vastly superior to post-Yardrat SSJ Goku.

yet 19 was able to somewhat keep up with him and SSJ Vegeta.

No. Even with the heart virus taking effect and starting to strike Goku's physical abilities, Goku was able to overpower Android 19 with relative ease. At the beginning of the fight, SSJ Goku was effortlessly knocking him around, speedblitzing him, and bullying him. And then, even after absorbing SSJ Goku's Kamehameha and then draining energy from the defeated, heart virus-stricken Goku, 19 was absolutely thrashed by SSJ Vegeta with no effort at all. Vegeta tanked his punches, kicked him around, blitzed him, ragdolled him, and managed to tear the former's arms off even after 19 drained him of his power. 19 in no way "somewhat [kept] up" with SSJ Goku (until he absorbed Goku's Kamehameha) and SSJ Vegeta, he was fodder to them.

Also everyone genuinely thought 19 and 20 were the Androids Trunks talked about, even Piccolo mentions this.

That is not a matter of battle power. The Z-Fighters thought that Dr. Gero and 19 were the Androids that Trunks talked about because Trunks mentioned that two Androids would show up in a specific spot at a specific time but didn't describe them, and coincidentally, Gero and 19 showed up in that spot at that time.

This wouldn't make sense if they were only Base Saiyan tier.

Dr. Gero would scale above base Goku for tanking his punch when he was angered and threatening Goku with his Eye Lasers. He also managed to "incapacitate" weighted Piccolo with his Eye Lasers, although it was revealed that Piccolo was merely attempting to draw the Androids away from Goku, and managed to restrain weighted Piccolo and drain him of his power after hiding out in the rockies.

And once again, "At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level".

 

[AKM sama]

Seems fine to me.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Spoiler: Dr. Gero

Tier: At least High 5-A, possibly 4-C, higher after absorbing energy

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Cyborgization (Full), Acrobatics, Surface Scaling (As shown here), Energy Manipulation (Can convert absorbed power into destructive energy, which he can use in the form of energy blasts and laser beams), Energy Absorption (Can absorb energy, including ki through his palms), Flight, Technological Preparation (Created Androids powerful enough to keep up with Earth's mightiest defenders, albeit after many years. Created a supercomputer with his will and a remote tracking device in order to gather DNA from the Z-Fighters in order to complete Cell's development after his death), Immortality (Types 1 and 2; Attained eternal life after mechanizing himself and survived being punched through the chest and decapitated long enough to speak), Self-Sustenance (Types 2 and 3; With the exception of his brain, his body is mechanical), Extrasensory Perception and Limited Information Analysis (Can detect power through his sensors. Possesses an extensive database on the Z-Fighters and the Earth itself), Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (Has no ki, so he is invisible to Ki Sense), Pain Manipulation (Does not feel pain), and possibly Sleep Manipulation (Does not feel fatigue)

Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level, possibly Star level (Threatened Goku with his lasers. Was initially confident that Android 19, and by extension himself, could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku. Is stronger than Android 19), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains onto his own)

Speed: At least FTL (Should be comparable to base Goku in the Android Saga, with he and Tien only narrowly dodging his lasers), higher after absorbing energy (Super Saiyan Vegeta was shocked by Gero's speed after he absorbed his energy blast. Managed to escape Vegeta's vision)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least Dwarf Star Class, possibly Star Class, higher after absorbing energy

Durability: At least Dwarf Star level, possibly Star level (Was unfazed by a punch from an angered Goku. Is stronger than Android 19), higher after absorbing energy (Took several blows from an unweighted Piccolo after draining him of his power and absorbing Super Saiyan Vegeta's energy blast, but resorted to fleeing when he was surrounded by the other Z-Fighters, including Vegeta)

Stamina: High, can keep on fighting for virtually unlimited periods of time by replenishing its power by absorbing his opponent's energy

Spoiler: Android 19

Tier: At least High 5-A, possibly 4-C, higher after absorbing energy

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Acrobatics, Skilled in Martial Arts, Energy Manipulation (Can convert absorbed power into destructive energy, which he can use in the form of energy blasts and laser beams), Energy Absorption (Can absorb energy, including ki through his palms), Flight, Immortality (Types 1 and 2; Possesses the same basic abilities as Dr. Gero), Inorganic Physiology (Type 2), Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2, and 3; Is entirely mechanical), Extrasensory Perception and Limited Information Analysis (Can detect power through his sensors. Possesses an extensive database on the Z-Fighters and the Earth itself), Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (Has no ki, so he is invisible to Ki Sense), Pain Manipulation (Does not feel pain), and possibly Sleep Manipulation (Does not feel fatigue)

Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level, possibly Star level (Scales to his durability. Dr. Gero was initially confident that Android 19 and himself could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku. Is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains to his own. His power multiplied after absorbing Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha and ultimately defeated Goku after his heart virus' effects began to worsen)

Speed: At least FTL (Is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount, and possesses the same basic abilities as him. Effortlessly dodged Dr. Gero's lasers from close range, whereas Goku only narrowly evaded them), higher after absorbing energy (Multiplied his power after absorbing Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha and became more powerful than him, evading his attacks and ultimately defeating him)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least Dwarf Star Class, possibly Star Class, higher after absorbing energy

Durability: At least Dwarf Star level, possibly Star level (Was fodder to Super Saiyan Goku but survived a prolonged beating from him before his heart virus began to worsen, long enough to absorb his energy), higher after absorbing energy (Tanked Super Saiyan Goku's attacks after absorbing his Kamehameha, albeit after his power dropped due to his heart virus worsening)

Stamina: High (Does not feel pain or fatigue but reached dangerously low levels of energy after fighting Goku for no more than a few minutes), can keep on fighting for virtually unlimited periods of time by replenishing his power by absorbing his opponent's energy

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

Seems fine to me.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Spoiler: Dr. Gero

Tier: At least Low 4-C, possibly 4-C, higher after absorbing energy

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Cyborgization (Full), Acrobatics, Surface Scaling (As shown here), Energy Manipulation (Can convert absorbed power into destructive energy, which he can use in the form of energy blasts and laser beams), Energy Absorption (Can absorb energy, including ki through his palms), Flight, Technological Preparation (Created Androids powerful enough to keep up with Earth's mightiest defenders, albeit after many years. Created a supercomputer with his will and a remote tracking device in order to gather DNA from the Z-Fighters in order to complete Cell's development after his death), Immortality (Types 1 and 2; Attained eternal life after mechanizing himself and survived being punched through the chest and decapitated long enough to speak), Self-Sustenance (Types 2 and 3; With the exception of his brain, his body is mechanical), Extrasensory Perception and Limited Information Analysis (Can detect power through his sensors. Possesses an extensive database on the Z-Fighters and the Earth itself), Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (Has no ki, so he is invisible to Ki Sense), Pain Manipulation (Does not feel pain), and possibly Sleep Manipulation (Does not feel fatigue)

Attack Potency: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Threatened Goku with his lasers. Was initially confident that Android 19, and by extension himself, could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku. Is stronger than Android 19), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains onto his own)

Speed: At least FTL (Should be comparable to base Goku in the Android Saga, with he and Tien only narrowly dodging his lasers), higher after absorbing energy (Super Saiyan Vegeta was shocked by Gero's speed after he absorbed his energy blast. Managed to escape Vegeta's vision)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least Small Star Class+, possibly Star Class, higher after absorbing energy

Durability: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Was unfazed by a punch from an angered Goku. Is stronger than Android 19), higher after absorbing energy (Took several blows from an unweighted Piccolo after draining him of his power and absorbing Super Saiyan Vegeta's energy blast, but resorted to fleeing when he was surrounded by the other Z-Fighters, including Vegeta)

Stamina: High, can keep on fighting for virtually unlimited periods of time by replenishing its power by absorbing his opponent's energy

Spoiler: Android 19

Tier: At least Low 4-C, possibly 4-C, higher after absorbing energy

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Acrobatics, Skilled in Martial Arts, Energy Manipulation (Can convert absorbed power into destructive energy, which he can use in the form of energy blasts and laser beams), Energy Absorption (Can absorb energy, including ki through his palms), Flight, Immortality (Types 1 and 2; Possesses the same basic abilities as Dr. Gero), Inorganic Physiology (Type 2), Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2, and 3; Is entirely mechanical), Extrasensory Perception and Limited Information Analysis (Can detect power through his sensors. Possesses an extensive database on the Z-Fighters and the Earth itself), Resistance to Extrasensory Perception (Has no ki, so he is invisible to Ki Sense), Pain Manipulation (Does not feel pain), and possibly Sleep Manipulation (Does not feel fatigue)

Attack Potency: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Scales to his durability. Dr. Gero was initially confident that Android 19 and himself could handle the power of a heart virus-stricken Super Saiyan Goku. Is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount), higher after absorbing energy (Adds the power of those whose energy he drains to his own. His power multiplied after absorbing Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha and ultimately defeated Goku after his heart virus' effects began to worsen)

Speed: At least FTL (Is weaker than Dr. Gero but not by a vast amount, and possesses the same basic abilities as him. Effortlessly dodged Dr. Gero's lasers from close range, whereas Goku only narrowly evaded them), higher after absorbing energy (Multiplied his power after absorbing Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha and became more powerful than him, evading his attacks and ultimately defeating him)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Striking Strength: At least Small Star Class+, possibly Star Class, higher after absorbing energy

Durability: At least Small Star level+, possibly Star level (Was fodder to Super Saiyan Goku but survived a prolonged beating from him before his heart virus began to worsen, long enough to absorb his energy), higher after absorbing energy (Tanked Super Saiyan Goku's attacks after absorbing his Kamehameha, albeit after his power dropped due to his heart virus worsening)

Stamina: High (Does not feel pain or fatigue but reached dangerously low levels of energy after fighting Goku for no more than a few minutes), can keep on fighting for virtually unlimited periods of time by replenishing his power by absorbing his opponent's energy

Shoudnt it be at least FTL+ father than FTL?!
They are faster than frieza thats why

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Nothing concretely puts them above Frieza, though.

 

[LightReinh12345]

I dont See Post 3 years Training SSJ vegeta was being shocked by his speed so unnaturally when he can literally Blitz frieza (who is slower than mecha frieza who is much slower than Pre Training SS Goku let alone Post Training which is on vegeta's lvl if vegeta isnt higher already ) at this point even weaker trunks was much faster than mecha frieza who was slower than 100% frieza from namek
Escaping vegeta's view & in DB AP & speed pretty much comparable if he is likely stronger than he should be faster as well, shouldnt he?!?
Only exception I See goku was probably a bit faster than ginyu while the latter likely a bit stronger thats kinda vague too
Otherwise I didnt See any exceptions in the entire DBZ
Also vegeta said something like that to cui :https://images.app.goo.gl/dHXv8M9reEAzz6GG9
He literally said "if my pl has risen then Obviously my speed has improved as well"
Keywords: Obviously
So if u think Gero >~ Frieza in AP
In speed he should be as well

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I dont See Post 3 years Training SSJ vegeta was being shocked by his speed so unnaturally

After he absorbed Vegeta's energy blast.

higher after absorbing energy (Super Saiyan Vegeta was shocked by Gero's speed after he absorbed his energy blast. Managed to escape Vegeta's vision)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Uh, Mecha Frieza is stronger than 100% Frieza. He was confident he could kill Initial SSJ Goku with his Mecha form after witnessing his power on Namek

 

[LightReinh12345]

After he absorbed Vegeta's energy blast.

Should be at least FTL+ , instead of Higher

 

[LightReinh12345]

Uh, Mecha Frieza is stronger than 100% Frieza. He was confident he could kill Initial SSJ Goku with his Mecha form after witnessing his power on Namek

3 years training Goku & Vegeta >>> Post Yardrat Goku > weaker SS Trunks > Mecha frieza >~ Initial SS Goku > 100% frieza > 50% frieza
dont See Gero being lower than 50% frieza in the slightest

 

[Nullflowerblush]

3 years training Goku & Vegeta >>> Post Yardrat Goku > weaker SS Trunks > Mecha frieza >~ Initial SS Goku > 100% frieza > 50% frieza
dont See Gero being lower than 50% frieza in the slightest

Are you suggesting that Post-Yardrat Goku in base is more powerful than Super Saiyan Trunks from the beginning of the saga, because there is no evidence to support that. On top of that, the only actual scaling Gero has going for him is to Post-3 Year Training Goku. Other than that, he was still getting smacked around by unweighted Piccolo, who's not even as powerful as heart virus-stricken and already weakened Super Saiyan Goku, despite absorbing both Piccolo, draining him to near-death, and Super Saiyan Vegeta's energy.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Should be at least FTL+ , instead of Higher

That isn't how the "after absorbing energy" rating works though. His power varies depending on whose energy he absorbs and how much of it, hence why the first thing that comes after "higher after absorbing energy" is "Adds the power of those whose energy he drains onto his own".