Downgrade or evidence request: The black hole at the end of Super Mario Galaxy

[Eficiente]

Some time ago I asked why this thing was Low 2-C and not just 3-A, the response I got was quite underwhelming; Some user said that black holes warp space and time and that one on that size would be Low 2-C.

This is wrong for many reasons

• If black holes could warp time in a way that destroys all of it in the areas where they are then we logically wouldn't see them get bigger over time.
• If black holes could warp space in a way that destroys all of it in the areas where they are then we both wouldn't see how things get sucked into a black hole and we wouldn't even be able to even see black holes.
• Every time characters survive a black hole I and others just add resistance to Gravity and Radiation Manipulation for it, never space and time manip too. I reeeally don't thing this to be wrong and that everyone who survives a black hole needs to have those 2 resistances too.
• The whole thing is just a headcanon, even if the black hole warps time and space in all the universe that doesn't mean that it's a Low 2-C feat unless proven that both things are being warped in a way that is Low 2-C.

As such this black hole that was going to destroy the universe needs to be downgraded to 3-A, leading to Bowser with a Grand Star and Rosalina's Forcefield Creation to be on that level as well.

And predicting something obvious people may say, the universe needing to be recreated with the black hole doesn't matter. If you read the Tiering System you may know that creating a universe is 3-A if you don't create a timeline, and that's what's happening here, time and space aren't being annihilated, every character survives and the universe is just how it was before (as in, the timeline doesn't get annihilated and restarts super fast as that would mean that we would have duplicates of the characters that were explicitly protected by this. The universe is recreated and characters are repositioned in other places).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The sca does say "Causing the very Fabric of the Universe to collapse". First of all, the term "Very fabric of the Universe" inherently means "All Time and Space". Sera is going to elaborate on our Universe standards page, but going by her words. She's planning to list of standard assumptions regarding 3-A Vs Low 2-C.

But of those examples, the mentions of Very Fabric of the Universe is a term used to indicate Low 2-C. Creating or destroying the Universe via a big explosion is 3-A. But Dimensional collapses are generally assumed to be Low 2-C. And also, the term "Parallel Universe" or "Alternate Universe" generally refers to alternate timelines.

 

[Genericstickman]

Isn't that from Galaxy 2? The black hole feat comes from galaxy 1 and only happens when Bowser's Grand Star powered galaxy is collapsing

 

[Eficiente]

The scan doesn't say that tho, it talks about how Bowser at the end of the game tells Mario that his machine will make the universe collapse upon itself, which both 1. he didn't say in the game, making the guide somewhat questionable, and 2. sounds more 3-A than Low 2-C.

"The very fabric of" something seems poetic and unthought when used by writers, and more importantly, are you that sure that it inherently means that as opposed to it being able to be interpreted in that way? It would be pretty big for us to establish something like that to always have one meaning and not another when this is stuff one just can't get by reading the meaning of the words.

In any case, the way we deal with this in the profiles is weird, Rosalina's tells the feat as if it were 3-A and Bowser's is confusing and induces suspicion about his Grant Star key.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This book is pretty much the first thing that comes to mind Universally when the term "Fabric of the Universe" is described. And even Wikipedia seems to define "The Universe" as including all time and space.

Also, the method of the Universe being destroyed is one of the main things to consider. For example, giving birth to the Universe from the Chaos of Creation is Low 2-C. The Universe "Collapsing upon itself" implies the barriers of time and space were destroyed. Also, Space Time is clearly something that exists given the numerous statements throughout Mario Galaxy 2 about Time and Space. Also, it does state he will "Give birth to a new cosmos". Implying it's a Universal reset. Universal resets are Low 2-C.

 

[Firestorm808]

Do we accept Prima Guides for Nintendo, or does it need the official Nintendo license seal?

https://archive.org/details/SuperMarioGalaxyPrimaOfficialGuide_201812/page/n1/mode/2up

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We do accept Prima Guides given they're still officially approved by Nintendo as a backup source to give more information on the lore and stuff.

 

[Eficiente]

This book is pretty much the first thing that comes to mind Universally when the term "Fabric of the Universe" is described. And even Wikipedia seems to define "The Universe" as including all time and space.

I don't see that there but ok, and the latter is obviously wrong.

The Universe "Collapsing upon itself" implies the barriers of time and space were destroyed.

Not necessarily, a collapse being on things made of matter is easier to imagine than a collapse of all of time.

Also, Space Time is clearly something that exists given the numerous statements throughout Mario Galaxy 2 about Time and Space.

I have no idea why would they not.

Also, it does state he will "Give birth to a new cosmos". Implying it's a Universal reset.

Yes but it is also just one interpretation.

I'm good with this being Low 2-C now (given that 3-A vs Low 2-C page that is going to be made), but Bowser's tier in that key seems questionable.

• The descrution of the universe he was going to make was with a machine.
• In his battle there were 2 ways using the environment was needed to be harm him, the last one of which was how he was being defeated in his other battles (I'm obviously aware of it being game mechanics, but the implications of it do matter).
• With that and in general there is no reason for him to be that much more powerful than before, especially considering why the Low 2-C feat happened.
• Being empowered by something=/=Having all the power that something can give.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was empowered by the Grand Star, which was the main thing that was granting the Galaxy Rector the ability to reset the Universe. Tier 2 machines do exist looking at Mister Fantastic's page for instance.

And it Mario Galaxy 2, he literally absorbs the Grand Star and there's actually another Universal feat. Something he performs simply by being amplified, not via his galaxy reactor. Mario defeating Bowser in both cases is PIS. But I'm kinda depleted ATM, but maybe someone like DatOneWeeb might have more info.

 

[Eficiente]

All the bosses in the Galaxy games are empowered by a Grand Star, the point is that none but Bowser are at that level and Bowser doesn't have any reason to have it, at least in SMG1.

That should very much be added to his locked profile, while the 3-C stuff said in his Low 2-C key should be removed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Only Bowser and Bowser Jr's mechs are empowered by Grand Stars, everyone else is empowered by a regular Power Star. Regular Power Stars do have feats ranging from 5-B to High 4-C to 4-A to 3-C however.

 

[Eficiente]

Aren't everyone else just mini-bosses? That's 6 boss fights if I'm not missing anything and my points still stand.

Please do update Bowser's profile if you can.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

So what needs to be done here?

 

[Eficiente]

Well, both profiles were updated, Bowser's still needs to link the scan for the feat in SMG2 and that would be everything.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Ah, I see. Well with the current CRT I have I'll make sure to add the links and extra reasoning once the profiles are unlocked.

 

[Omnificence]

Some time ago I asked why this thing was Low 2-C and not just 3-A, the response I got was quite underwhelming; Some user said that black holes warp space and time and that one on that size would be Low 2-C.

This is wrong for many reasons

• If black holes could warp time in a way that destroys all of it in the areas where they are then we logically wouldn't see them get bigger over time.
• If black holes could warp space in a way that destroys all of it in the areas where they are then we both wouldn't see how things get sucked into a black hole and we wouldn't even be able to even see black holes.
• Every time characters survive a black hole I and others just add resistance to Gravity and Radiation Manipulation for it, never space and time manip too. I reeeally don't thing this to be wrong and that everyone who survives a black hole needs to have those 2 resistances too.
• The whole thing is just a headcanon, even if the black hole warps time and space in all the universe that doesn't mean that it's a Low 2-C feat unless proven that both things are being warped in a way that is Low 2-C.

As such this black hole that was going to destroy the universe needs to be downgraded to 3-A, leading to Bowser with a Grand Star and Rosalina's Forcefield Creation to be on that level as well.

And predicting something obvious people may say, the universe needing to be recreated with the black hole doesn't matter. If you read the Tiering System you may know that creating a universe is 3-A if you don't create a timeline, and that's what's happening here, time and space aren't being annihilated, every character survives and the universe is just how it was before (as in, the timeline doesn't get annihilated and restarts super fast as that would mean that we would have duplicates of the characters that were explicitly protected by this. The universe is recreated and characters are repositioned in other places).

It was empowered by the Grand Star, which was the main thing that was granting the Galaxy Rector the ability to reset the Universe. Tier 2 machines do exist looking at Mister Fantastic's page for instance.

And it Mario Galaxy 2, he literally absorbs the Grand Star and there's actually another Universal feat. Something he performs simply by being amplified, not via his galaxy reactor. Mario defeating Bowser in both cases is PIS. But I'm kinda depleted ATM, but maybe someone like DatOneWeeb might have more info.

Do we accept Prima Guides for Nintendo, or does it need the official Nintendo license seal?

https://archive.org/details/SuperMarioGalaxyPrimaOfficialGuide_201812/page/n1/mode/2up

So, what's everyone's opinion on this now? I've been wanting to calculate this black hole feat for a while now. Executor_N0 seems to agree it was created by a collapse of matter.

 

[KLOL506]

Bro. This is a massive Necro. Someone close this.

 

[LordTracer]

Closing this huge necro.