Does this qualify as Type 5 Acausality?

[CNBA3]

I know that Type 5 Acausality “Causality Transcendence” which is complete independence of any cause and effect system.

I was wondering if this quote is something that would relate to this.

“CORRELATION (ACAUSAL). Event Without causal antecedents to any conceivable cause and effect system” Example: “spontaneous relativistic dilation in a rest frame”. Imagined mechanism threatens containment”

Thoughts?

 

[sukuna171]

Maybe, but I don't know if the anomaly really qualifies for Type 5 Acausality—though it does seem like more evidence for Darkness having it

 

[CNBA3]

Maybe, but I don't know if the anomaly really qualifies for Type 5 Acausality—though it does seem like more evidence for Darkness having it

Thanks, I believe the Void or “Secret Physics” would possibly qualify as Type 5 Acausality too as it too is called Acausality, and is unaccounted for by any physics, and physics is in the context of causal closures with numinous elements.

Voidwalker — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

'Those who have stared into the Void are not bound by the laws of space and time.' The Traveler came out of the void that surrounds all things. Thus we know that the void is full of power. Thus we enter the void without fear. Small minds will call your abilities blasphemous. They will compare...

www.ishtar-collective.net

Revanche I — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— Uldren returned to the Reef during the Long Unquiet Night, when the Awoken people huddled in their beds and hammocks, gathered in ice caves and half-lit habitat cylinders, haunted by visions and portents. Faces appeared to them in the sublimating swirl of cometary ice: images and portraits...

www.ishtar-collective.net

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No, because it's referring to something that just happens with no cause. That's what antecedents mean. If there was evidence that the event couldn't be interacted with or interfered with, then maybe.

 

[CNBA3]

No, because it's referring to something that just happens with no cause. That's what antecedents mean. If there was evidence that the event couldn't be interacted with or interfered with, then maybe.

Antecedent means something that exists before another, it is before any cause and effect, not just effect. The Example would likely qualify cause since nothing interacted with a rest frame that produced relativistic dilation on it’s own, and that requires something at motion.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Following.

 

[sukuna171]

Thanks, I believe the Void or “Secret Physics” would possibly qualify as Type 5 Acausality too as it too is called Acausality, and is unaccounted for by any physics, and physics is in the context of causal closures with numinous elements.

Voidwalker — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

'Those who have stared into the Void are not bound by the laws of space and time.' The Traveler came out of the void that surrounds all things. Thus we know that the void is full of power. Thus we enter the void without fear. Small minds will call your abilities blasphemous. They will compare...

www.ishtar-collective.net

Revanche I — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— Uldren returned to the Reef during the Long Unquiet Night, when the Awoken people huddled in their beds and hammocks, gathered in ice caves and half-lit habitat cylinders, haunted by visions and portents. Faces appeared to them in the sublimating swirl of cometary ice: images and portraits...

www.ishtar-collective.net

Honestly, other than the Winnower, the Gardener, and the Light and Darkness, I don’t think anything else qualifies as Type 5.

 

[sukuna171]

Antecedent means something that exists before another, it is before any cause and effect, not just effect. The Example would likely qualify cause since nothing interacted with a rest frame that produced relativistic dilation on it’s own, and that requires something at motion.

also, isn't the anomaly just Pyramid technology made by the The Witness

 

[CNBA3]

also, isn't the anomaly just Pyramid technology made by the The Witness

I think so based on the Shadowkeep collectors edition lore based on what the K1 crew found left by the Black Fleet.

 

[WHYNAUT]

No, it's just a high level of Type 4 Acausality.

 

[CNBA3]

No, it's just a high level of Type 4 Acausality.

Are you sure? Type 4 is its own cause and effect system. This is saying it is without any of that.

A high end Type 4 would be a different causal system but stronger than others

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yes. It doesn't qualify for Type 5, so it can't be anything other than Type 4. The reason Type 4's description doesn't account for this is probably that such an explicit statement, while not having the the qualifiers for Type 5, is extremely rare.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. What would a stonger causal system even entail?

 

[CNBA3]

Yes. It doesn't qualify for Type 5, so it can't be anything other than Type 4. The reason Type 4's description doesn't account for this is probably that such an explicit statement, while not having the the qualifiers for Type 5, is extremely rare.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. What would a stonger causal system even entail?

I don’t know, Irregular Causal Type 4 would be pretty clear something having cause and effect but on it’s own system apart from another. Type 5 is something that is outside of cause and effect all together. And the description describes the phenomenon something outside any causal and effect.

Stronger causal system like creating an explosion the size of a firecracker but with the energy and power of a nuke, etc. where normal or other similar causal systems don’t which would release energy equivalent to a firecracker or equivalent effect.

 

[sukuna171]

I'm with Whynaut on this one it’s only Type 4 Acausality, which is still pretty good in destiny

 

[WHYNAUT]

I don’t know, Irregular Causal Type 4 would be pretty clear something having cause and effect but on it’s own system apart from another. Type 5 is something that is outside of cause and effect all together. And the description describes the phenomenon something outside any causal and effect.

Stronger causal system like creating an explosion the size of a firecracker but with the energy and power of a nuke, etc. where normal or other similar causal systems don’t which would release energy equivalent to a firecracker or equivalent effect.

No there's still an effect, just no cause that would fall under any conceivable system of causality in this case. The description doesn't adhere to the second half of Type 5's requirements.

No that's still just another system of causality. Just because it yields more energy does not make the system itself superior. Destiny would have the edge here, because this would just be another system of causality that the characters can act outside of.

 

[CNBA3]

No there's still an effect, just no cause that would fall under any conceivable system of causality in this case. The description doesn't adhere to the second half of Type 5's requirements.

No that's still just another system of causality. Just because it yields more energy does not make the system itself superior. Destiny would have the edge here, because this would just be another system of causality that the characters can act outside of.

I mean, that sort of thing would be something spontaneous on its own. Giving the example of like the Ultimate Gods which are described as Acausal type 5 via operating under laws unknown to other physics conceivable. Even if it is cause or effect shouldn’t apply either.

The way you describe higher level type 4 would automatically fall under Paracausality as Destiny does make a distinction between Paracausal and Acausal. That is what I am saying.

XVI: The Sword Logic — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

Verse 2:6 — The Sword Logic AT LAST! We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons. What are these? How do they work? Wouldn’t you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere...

www.ishtar-collective.net

 

[WHYNAUT]

I mean, that sort of thing would be something spontaneous on its own. Giving the example of like the Ultimate Gods which are described as Acausal type 5 via operating under laws unknown to other physics conceivable. Even if it is cause or effect shouldn’t apply either.

The way you describe higher level type 4 would automatically fall under Paracausality as Destiny does make a distinction between Paracausal and Acausal. That is what I am saying.

XVI: The Sword Logic — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

Verse 2:6 — The Sword Logic AT LAST! We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons. What are these? How do they work? Wouldn’t you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere...

www.ishtar-collective.net

As you can see here that statement alone is not what grants them Type 5. It's just that that part of the page hasn't been updated ever since the standards for Type 5 Acausality have been changed. Please don't delve into whataboutism and judge feats simply by the site standards. And that's not even getting into how the Ultimate God statement and the acausal Destiny statement do not say the same thing.

Yes basic paracausality still operates under possible systems of causality, but higher levels reach the mentioned "acausal state'. The confusing terminology is because in-verse Golden Age humanity are the ones that made this specific distinction.

 

[sukuna171]

I mean, that sort of thing would be something spontaneous on its own. Giving the example of like the Ultimate Gods which are described as Acausal type 5 via operating under laws unknown to other physics conceivable. Even if it is cause or effect shouldn’t apply either.

The way you describe higher level type 4 would automatically fall under Paracausality as Destiny does make a distinction between Paracausal and Acausal. That is what I am saying.

XVI: The Sword Logic — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

Verse 2:6 — The Sword Logic AT LAST! We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons. What are these? How do they work? Wouldn’t you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere...

www.ishtar-collective.net

I believe Darkness was referred to as acausal in a lore card at some point.

 

[CNBA3]

I do try to avoid whataboutism for comparing things especially when they don't follow what is shown, but with those additional quotes, it can still be applicable to Acausality in Destiny as well by that bare minimum examples.

Since Acausality is related to the Void or Secret Physics with how they do not obey any causal laws and this is from beings more advanced than Humanity who already understands more than they ever did before the Traveler.

Mara digested this with a shot of ancient ice, slushy against her tongue. "Acausality. You mean that whatever's happening—whatever influence we have on, say, neutrino beams—it's not accounted for by physics?"

"Not by any physics we know. At face, it seems to violate some conservation laws, which would make Emmy Noether's head spin." Kelda remembers the names of her ancient physicist heroes even when she cannot tell which way is sunward.

"Secret physics." Mara thought of the Traveler and its works. "We've all felt it, haven't we? We know we're…" How to say "trapped in the clinch between light and dark," she wondered, without quite so much portent? "We're in contact with certain numinous elements."- Revanche I

And with how the Vex exist within the Void and outside of time and see it as an illusion who aren't fooled by it.

You and Maya repeat the experiment, heads cocked like nervy sparrows. When your rocks hit void, they disintegrate first into wireframe and then into that black nothingness. - Volitive

he Vex understand time in a way we never will. Doesn't matter how long I spend here watching them. Doesn't matter how many jury-rigged portals Guardians fling themselves through. We live in time. They use it as a tool. Any moment that's ever happened, any moment that will ever happen, they can go back to it. Play it again till they get it right. Simulate it.

The Vex, they're the closest to understanding it. They've got distance from it. If time's a river, then we're fish and they're diving birds. What's wet mean to a fish? What's it mean to an osprey, who's never fooled by refraction on the water's surface? - Atelic

And the Vex are able to create from the Void their Network which the Pyramidions' infinite dimensions are only a part of it:

"Return their network to the empty space it once was." —Mithrax

"If the Darkness claims the Pyramidion, it will dissect it for study. Unfold its innumerable dimensions, wade through its multitudinous seas radiozoic, peer through its crackling warp gates leading toward a million millions of new realities…" - Fleischman-Aschheim Axiom

And they are able to make higher dimensional spaces where past and future exist in the present:

We have lost all sense of time. Past and future are like up and down, and we would walk them if we could, back to a place before Nessus, but we will always be on Nessus, too. I don't know. I don't know. They are trying to understand us. They must think like rivers. We are now receiving our own distress calls. I sound calmer than I feel. - Exodus Down

I believe Darkness was referred to as acausal in a lore card at some point.

The darkness has void based powers as well, something that is Acausal. And it’s vanguard to arrive was Nezarec who is a master of the Void.

Conditional Finality — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

You will dream of me… I will never leave you… — The sound that escaped me resembled a roar. A psychic echo. It soared through the air and pierced every corner of my ship. Anger coursed through me as I toppled the ground in a heap. I wheezed with each breath and clutched at my chest.

www.ishtar-collective.net

 

[WHYNAUT]

I could address each of these points, but to avoid a long debate: paracausal characters aren't changeless and they aren't impossible to interact with. You know this and you know the standards for Type 5 Acausality.

Only the Darkness, Light, Winnower and Gardener qualify, which has already been accepted in CRTs.

 

[CNBA3]

Actually the Void is considered impossible and is changeless as it exists outside of time as it is the same everywhere.

And how does Darkness and Light be considered type 5 when they are constantly interacted with by others? And the Light and Darkness are not changless as they can be changed and transformed even. The Witness is the First Knife of the Winnower and the Guardians could interact with it.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Light and Darkness in their purest forms are only ever interacted with by extremely powerful uses of Light and Darkness, which isn't an anti-feat. The things that 'constantly' get interacted with and that undergo change are only manifestations of them. The Witness being the First Knife is only a self-proclaimed and symbolic title. The First Knife mentioned in Unveiling was discovered before creation had been born after all.

I take issue with a number of things in your last two posts, but this isn't a CRT and the question in the OP has been answered, so I'm leaving it at this.

 

[sukuna171]

Actually the Void is considered impossible and is changeless as it exists outside of time as it is the same everywhere.

And how does Darkness and Light be considered type 5 when they are constantly interacted with by others? And the Light and Darkness are not changless as they can be changed and transformed even. The Witness is the First Knife of the Winnower and the Guardians could interact with it.

Are you referring to this? If so, it's a metaphor after all, the Winnower doesn’t even have hands and like WHYNAUT said this conversation happened before creation.

Spoiler

I looked at the gardener.

I looked at my hands.

I discovered the first knife.

 

[CNBA3]

The purest form of light and Dark is still utilized by even the Guardians by what Ulan-Tan stated as well even in the earlier parts of the story expressed as the same, such as between ghosts, guardians and the Traveler. There was Oryx even able to interact with the Winnower at one point too. For the First Knife bit with information below.

Are you referring to this? If so, it's a metaphor after all, the Winnower doesn’t even have hands and like WHYNAUT said this conversation happened before creation.

Spoiler

I looked at the gardener.

I looked at my hands.

I discovered the first knife.

I know, Well the Unveiling in-verse is an allegory made by the Witness. And it is best represented by it’s own journey especially when comparing it’s encounter with a foe that attacked but offered peace that led to it’s destruction (Styx II) just as the Winnower was attacked by the Gardener and offered peace which the Winnower struck against. And in Inspiral where the someone talks about how the Knife had to exist and was inevitable and flowers to wield the knife itself.

 

[CNBA3]

Bump

I am putting here the references to where Ulan Tan said that the Light and Darkness are the purest and where they are the same. Same with how the "First Knife" can be wielded by others in the flowers of the Garden.

I propose a simple experiment—look around. You see light. You see darkness. There could not be one without the other. They are two sides of the same coin.

If it is true for these Newtonian echoes, why would it not be true of the purest, paracausal forms? - Symmetry Flight

If we understand that Light is connected to itself—that the Light in Guardians is the same Light as that in their Ghosts, which in turn is the same Light as the Traveler's—then the answer is clear: that those possessed of the Traveler's Light, defended and upraised by it, stand in the best and in fact only possible position to pay back that debt. Who else could even hope to do so? - Collective

They are domesticated things, made in a form. As soon as something is called a garden, it is shaped. The plants require the hand of a gardener, for they have become weak and dependent on tender care. They require the hand of a winnower, to cut away the dross, for they are too incapable to do it themselves. In absence of a hand, either the flowers themselves must rise up to wield the knife, or the garden will resolve to meaningless wilderness. - Winnowing

 

[sukuna171]

I still think only the Darkness, Light, Winnower, and Gardener really qualify and maybe the Void, after what you said

Bump

I am putting here the references to where Ulan Tan said that the Light and Darkness are the purest and where they are the same. Same with how the "First Knife" can be wielded by others in the flowers of the Garden.