Does this calc actually violate KE rules?

[Arc7Kuroi]

Intro
I made a Madara spreading the god tree roots calc a long ass time ago, and then it got removed here for allegedly violating KE rules. The thing is, I don't actually know what 906 Exatons of KE moving through the "liquidy" molten interior of the Earth would look like, so this thread is to discuss whether or not this calc actually violates are standards.

Discussion
So, the KE rule that was assumed to be in violation was the KE being vastly superior to the visible destruction. However, recently DT has said this on his wall when I asked him about it,

If it just pierces through that's probably fine.
In any case, that seems like a case-by-case consideration. Any calc group member should IMO be able to make a call on whether they think it's reasonable or not.

DT seems to be of the opinion that even if all the roots do is pierce through the planet, it is probably okay to accept the calc. Thus it wouldn't violate KE rules. That being said, he also said it's case by case, and up to calc members. The feat occurs in the manga at chapter 677 and in the anime at Shippuden episode 426.

Conclusion
I'd appreciate if various CGM could just comment on what call they would make, given the new information DT provided. I don't have any further arguments to make, as there isn't really any non fictional precedence to exam for feats like these.

It's fine: Dale (only leaning towards this and doesn't feel super strongly about it)
Neutral: Clover
It's in violation:
Probably shouldn't use it for other reasons: DT

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So in the manga, we admittedly don’t see the feat occur, rather we just see the results

 

[Dalesean027]

I mean at least thanks to that scans ya do have the benefit saying they did carry enough energy to dig through the planet pretty quickly but with that alone I'm honestly not sure myself of its qualifications but I do see the reasoning.


We'll need more CGMs to comment here

 

[Crabwhale]

so this thread is to discuss whether or not this calc actually violates are standards.

Minor spelling mistake.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm kinda in the same camp as Dalesean tbh, I could absolutely see one way or another and I'm admittedly quite torn atm. I'll wait for further input, as much of a cop out as that sounds

 

[KingTempest]

We see Hashirama's and Madara's wood style on a smaller scale. It doesn't just pierce through, it shifts around

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not sure if we should even use KE for growing plants.

They don't really expand by moving the existing wood, they keep the existing stuff (mostly) stationary and "move" by just building new stuff around it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Minor spelling mistake.

Close the thread NOW

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not sure if we should even use KE for growing plants.

They don't really expand by moving the existing wood, they keep the existing stuff (mostly) stationary and "move" by just building new stuff around it.

Wood style seems to more so work by growing the stuff from the source, more so like hair.
It's hard to say with just tentacle-ish wood structures but with stuff like the Buddha statue we see the upper part of the statue is created first and then the bottom half gets grown as the top gets pushed upwards

Same with the wood golem. The hand gets made first, then the rest is grown below it and pushes the hand forward.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not sure if we should even use KE for growing plants.

They don't really expand by moving the existing wood, they keep the existing stuff (mostly) stationary and "move" by just building new stuff around it.

For what it's worth, the depiction of the jutsu in the anime is less realistic to a tree growing and treats the roots more like tendrils of sorts, where the entire thing moves.

 

[Floxy178]

Total KE being superior to visible destruction is normal if not all KE was spent on this. It doesn't seem like roots stopped because of losing all of its KE during destruction.

For example if we throw a ball to a wall and it stops dealing some damage. Initial KE and visible destruction should be equal. (or at least comparable as we're talking about fiction)

However if that ball passes through it without slowing down significantly, we can say that its initial KE is greater than damage it caused as it still remained part of its energy even after destroying wall.

In Madara's feat, it seemed to me that roots stopped because they completed the task coming to the surface, not because slowing down during passing through Earth.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I guess it's also worth mentioning there are like thousands of roots too, so it's not like each root is moving through the Earth with 906 exatons of energy, each individual root would be moving through the Earth with far far less amounts of energy.

 

[That_moron2]

The image link in the calc is broken

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

bump

 

[That_moron2]

Also wouldn’t be better to calculate the destruction of earth using the length and width of the trees?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

maybe if I’m feeling like it I’ll make like a mass of earth displaced from the roots calc of sorts. But there’s no inherent reason why that’s better than just the KE of all the roots summed together atm. I’m not really worried about other methods of calcing this feat for this thread, I’m just curious if CGM think this particular calc violates KE rules or not.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I mean at least thanks to that scans ya do have the benefit saying they did carry enough energy to dig through the planet pretty quickly but with that alone I'm honestly not sure myself of its qualifications but I do see the reasoning.


We'll need more CGMs to comment here

I'm kinda in the same camp as Dalesean tbh, I could absolutely see one way or another and I'm admittedly quite torn atm. I'll wait for further input, as much of a cop out as that sounds

Do you two have any updated opinion after what DT said and what was said in response to DT? I apologize for the pestering

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

bormp

 

[Dalesean027]

Do you two have any updated opinion after what DT said and what was said in response to DT? I apologize for the pestering

I'm still kinda in the same spot as before, still see your point here and I at least am glad you're taking into account variable KE, like the math is still fine. I suppose I'm leaning towards saying its alright for use since the growths are behaving like normal and are kinda tentaclish

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm still kinda in the same spot as before, still see your point here and I at least am glad you're taking into account variable KE, like the math is still fine. I suppose I'm leaning towards saying its alright for use since the growths are behaving like normal and are kinda tentaclish

Ig it also (if it comes back) wouldn't need to come back as a full thing, if you think the calc being accepted as a likely or possibly on the verse page is most accurate, that is an avenue.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bump

 

[That_moron2]

maybe if I’m feeling like it I’ll make like a mass of earth displaced from the roots calc of sorts. But there’s no inherent reason why that’s better than just the KE of all the roots summed together atm. I’m not really worried about other methods of calcing this feat for this thread, I’m just curious if CGM think this particular calc violates KE rules or not.

The K.E page states that the destruction calc usually takes precedent over the K.E calc

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The K.E page states that the destruction calc usually takes precedent over the K.E calc

I know, but unfortunately we don’t see the interior of the planet, so we don’t see like 99.99% of the destruction. Furthermore, the context of that statement is when the KE value is >>> what its reasonable destruction value should be. And the purpose of this thread is to determine if that is the case, thus making this calc violate KE rules. To paraphrase what DT said on his message, in this scenario it could be fine, but it’s a bit case by case, although any CGM can make that call. So, I will let the CGMs make that call. Until then we can all exercise some patience and wait.

 

[Floxy178]

The K.E page states that the destruction calc usually takes precedent over the K.E calc

Yeah but not in the case where initial KE is greater than KE lost during destruction.(second one is relevant to destruction while first one isn't) You can debate if it falls under this or not though.

 

[That_moron2]

I know, but unfortunately we don’t see the interior of the planet, so we don’t see like 99.99% of the destruction. Furthermore, the context of that statement is when the KE value is >>> what its reasonable destruction value should be. And the purpose of this thread is to determine if that is the case, thus making this calc violate KE rules. To paraphrase what DT said on his message, in this scenario it could be fine, but it’s a bit case by case, although any CGM can make that call. So, I will let the CGMs make that call. Until then we can all exercise some patience and wait.

I was thinking you could use the length and width of the roots and approximate a cylinder.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I was thinking you could use the length and width of the roots and approximate a cylinder.

Yeah I’ll revisit that after this thread is over.

 

[Kachon123]

To paraphrase what DT said on his message, in this scenario it could be fine

What makes this scenario different than any other instance of high levels of energy running through the earth?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What makes this scenario different than any other instance of high levels of energy running through the earth?

idk, that’s why I messaged DT. And his answer was “it’s probably fine but let other CGM make the call”. If I had the answers I’d just make an implementation thread.

 

[Kachon123]

Could someone mention him so he can answer? It's pretty important so we can move forward in this thread.

 

[KingTempest]

idk, that’s why I messaged DT. And his answer was “it’s probably fine but let other CGM make the call”. If I had the answers I’d just make an implementation thread.

It's because he's saying that in the case where all the wood does is expand and pierce, it's fine.

I'm saying it's not fine because it doesn't just grow, it wiggles throughout the planet as well, effectively affecting the whole planet

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm saying it's not fine because it doesn't just grow, it wiggles throughout the planet as well, effectively affecting the whole planet

DT said what he said explicitly aware that it’s traversing through the whole planet

 

[Kachon123]

DT said what he said explicitly aware that it’s traversing through the whole planet

When did he say that? From all I know, he was only aware that the wood was piercing through the planet.

If it just pierces through that's probably fine.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When did he say that? From all I know, he was only aware that the wood was piercing through the planet.

If it just pierces through that's probably fine.

1) DT knows what the feat is, I posted the scans, and he's been involved in other Divine Tree threads before. It's probably a bit ridiculous to assume he doesn't have bare bones knowledge of one of the most well known Naruto feats.

2) The volume of Earth is about 10^21 m^3, the volume of the Divine Tree's roots (all summed together) are roughly 10^12 m^3 (the individual roots have volumes thousands of times less). That's less than a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of the total volume of Earth. So, to claim that it's going through "the whole Earth" as if the roots are occupying a large portion of Earth's volume is a bit disingenuous, when the vast majority of Earth isn't even in contact with these roots. So, while these roots do at their longest travel through the diameter of the Earth, they are far from effecting the entire planet.

3) When DT responds again in this thread, he can clarify if I interpreted him correctly/if he's aware of this feat's particulars.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Shouldn't the roots just pierce through the planet like bullets rather than completely destroy it?
It's not like burying through the earth stopped them either so they clearly didn't transfer all of their KE to it

 

[Kachon123]

1) DT knows what the feat is, I posted the scans, and he's been involved in other Divine Tree threads before. It's probably a bit ridiculous to assume he doesn't have bare bones knowledge of one of the most well known Naruto feats.

That's fine, but as you said, DT will clarify his interpretation of the feat whenever he comes back to this thread.

2) The volume of Earth is about 10^21 m^3, the volume of the Divine Tree's roots (all summed together) are roughly 10^12 m^3 (the individual roots have volumes thousands of times less). That's less than a percent of a percent of a percent of a percent of the total volume of Earth. So, to claim that it's going through "the whole Earth" as if the roots are occupying a large portion of Earth's volume is a bit disingenuous, when the vast majority of Earth isn't even in contact with these roots. So, while these roots do at their longest travel through the diameter of the Earth, they are far from effecting the entire planet.

I never once claimed or implied that the roots were occupying a large potion of the planet's volume and I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I did. Regardless of the volume of the roots, if they contain that much energy, they matter within the Earth will still be move around a lot and be displaced. The issue is that the expected end results of the feat and the shown end results are so different that it can cause people to raise their eyebrows when looking at it. If CGMs think that the issue doesn't matter enough to discredit the scene entirely then more power to them, but I personally think that this is just another instance of a KE rule violation.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

it will still displace and move a lot of the matter within the Earth. The issue is that the expected end results of the feat and the shown end results are so different that it can cause people to raise their eyebrows when looking at it. If CGMs think that the issue doesn't matter enough to discredit the scene entirely then more power to them, but I personally think that this is just another instance of a KE rule violation.

That's what this thread is for. I'm not actually sure if thousands of tiny (when compared to the Earth) roots moving through the planet with petatons of energy individually (summing to exatons in totality) would results in lots of visible damage to the planet or not. I'm not making an argument inherently for that or against it, which is why I originally asked DT about feats where objects pierce through the planet. So, yes I am also waiting to see if CGM say it's fine or it's not fine.

 

[Floxy178]

Shouldn't the roots just pierce through the planet like bullets rather than completely destroy it?
It's not like burying through the earth stopped them either so they clearly didn't transfer all of their KE to it

This makes sense to me as roots have to travel different distances through Earth so I don't really believe that Madara supplies them individually with exactly needed energy, they seem to stop because they come to the surface rather than their KE dropping to 0.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

DT said what he said explicitly aware that it’s traversing through the whole planet

He's aware that it's traversing the planet but he's in the mindset of it just creating new wood around the end parts which pierce the ground

Not sure if we should even use KE for growing plants.

They don't really expand by moving the existing wood, they keep the existing stuff (mostly) stationary and "move" by just building new stuff around it.

Which this doesn't do, it actually moves the outmost parts further and further out, actually wiggling through the planet with tier 6-5 levels of energy, which should cause earthquakes at the least and chunks of the planet damaged at the most