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Doctor Doom Revisions Part 1.5: "Let's Talk About Magic (and Energy Blades and Forcefields)"

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This is a minor revision for Doom, right before I release the 2nd General CRT, mainly discussing the AP and durability of Doom's magic powers and forcefields in relation to his typical stuff.

First off, it is clear that Doom's magic attacks are far above his standard ones. Examples include:
Thus, his Magic would upscale to Baseline 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) due to how small the gap between 1.38 and 1.2 yottatons is. The above proposal means that Doctor Strange's 5-B base would be slightly bumped up to 5-B+ for being at minimum comparable to Doom w/Magic.

However, in relation to the 2nd feat, Doctor Doom (who was in his "Infamous Iron Man" phase) using magic and Doctor Strange together were able to briefly fight and even stagger/hurt Mephisto with a combined magic attack in Infamous Iron Man #12, though they only banished him with a non-magic attack from Infamous Iron Man Doom's armor and they were likely still inferior to Earth-Mephisto.

Mephisto outside of Hell scales to 3-C via stomping the Silver Surfer. Thus, Doom w/ magic would scale to 63 Zettafoe like all other Marvel 3-C people since Mephisto outside of Hell stomped Silver Surfer who scales to the 63 Zettafoe calc.

While you may think this was an outlier, Doom using magic Deconstruction effortlessly one-shot a bunch of Alternate Universe Herald Doombots that each had enough power cosmic to be compared to the Silver Surfer. Yes, it was deconstruction and not AP, but still support for Doom with magic being able to contend with people far above his base.

In short, his magic would either be 5-B+ via upscaling from his base, or it'd be 3-C via Mephisto scaling.

On a non-magic note, in Fantastic Four (2023) #7, Doom using energy blades presumably from his armor one-shots Annihilus on two separate occasions. Annihilus is 5-B (1.2 yottatons) being superior to The Thing.

Thus, both Doom's magic and energy blades are shown to be far above his base, and thus both should be upscaled to 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) at minimum, especially since the gap between 1.2 and 1.38 yottatons is quite small.


As for his durability, Doom's forcefields, both magic and otherwise, have constantly been shown as having durability vastly above his own power level, such as blocking blasts from Nova (Guardians of the Galaxy [2020] #14), utterly no-selling blasts from Iron Man's Model 42, Model 51, and Hulkbuster armors, all of which scale on the same level as Doom's AP, and being repeatedly shown as comparable to Strange's own forcefield, which in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #69 blocked his own attacks reflected back at him but with their power multiplied a hundredfold.

Most impressively, in Midnight Suns #2, Doom's magic shield managed to block Wolverine's adamantium claws, which as you may know are High 3-A.

And unlike his standard durability and AP, his forcefields really haven't been shattered that often, especially not by people on his level, so there are few if any anti-feats.

Thus, his durability section should scale to one of these feats, or just say "far higher with forcefields". "5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic".

If High 3-A isn't accepted, since his forcefields are comparable to Strange's which blocked blasts that were 100x Strange's AP, his durability could be 138 yottatons. So, if for whatever reason the Wolverine claw feat isn't accepted, it could be, "5-B, up to 5-A (138 yottatons) with forcefields"


Long story short:

Proposal 1:

Attack Potency: 5-B
(With added justification of Doom being equal in base to Blue Marvel), 5-B+ with Energy Blades (One-shot Annihilus) and Magic Attacks (Far stronger than his standard attacks. One-shot Blue Marvel. Held his own against a somewhat serious Mephisto, who while toying around one-shot The Thing)

Durability: 5-B, up to 5-A (138 yottatons) with Forcefields (Comparable to Doctor Strange's forcefields, which can block his own attacks magnified a hundredfold).



Proposal 2:

Attack Potency: 5-B
(With added justification of Doom being equal in base to Blue Marvel), 5-B+ with Energy Blades (One-shot Annihilus), up to 3-C with Magic (Far stronger than his standard attacks. Alongside Doctor Strange, held his own against a somewhat serious Mephisto and with the help of Doctor Strange staggered him with a combined attack, when the same Mephisto outside of Hell has repeatedly been shown to be far stronger than the Silver Surfer)

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked Wolverine's adamantium claws)



Proposal 3:

Attack Potency: 5-B
(With added justification of Doom being equal in base to Blue Marvel), 5-B+ with Energy Blades (One-shot Annihilus) and Magic Attacks (Far stronger than his standard attacks. One-shot Blue Marvel. Held his own against a somewhat serious Mephisto, who while toying around one-shot The Thing)

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked Wolverine's adamantium claws)

EDIT:
Actually, in Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment, Doom states that even when he multiplied his armor's power reserves by 10, Strange's magic made him superior.

As shown in the OP, Doom with magic was able to fight Mephisto on a level equal to Doctor Strange in Infamous Iron Man #12. Thus, if the 3-C end is not accepted, Doom with magic (and Strange at minimum) could be:

Proposal 4:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).
 
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(This isn't a minor revision, you're attempting to bump him up more than half a dozen tiers my friend)

5-B+ doesn't work since to get an upgrade like that you'd need an actual feat, or at least a stated multiplier, and not "well it's a lot stronger so we'll assume it can cross this gap". So that'll be a no from me.

The 3-A proposal for his AP is similarly bad: barely annoying Mephisto with the combined help of Doctor Strange is absolutely not good enough to justify such a large increase in power. The deconstruction cited as supporting evidence is quite frankly completely irrelevant, so it's a no to this too.5-B+ doesn't work since to get an upgrade like that you'd need an actual feat, or at least a stated multiplier, and not "well it's a lot stronger so we'll assume it can cross this gap"

As for the durability shields:
  • The first feat for him blocking Model 42's shot isn't a no-sell, where did you get this from? Iron Man simply says "I can't get through his shield", not "his shield completely negates my attacks" or "his shield doesn't feel a thing".
  • Model 51 feat seems solid, but I have two questions: (a) what is this comic from and (b) the fact that he had to use a "combined" spell defense implies that he can't really no-sell Model 51 without some decent effort.
  • There's no source for no-selling the Hulkbuster attack.
  • "His shield's are repeatedly compared to Doctor Strange's" hmm.
    • The first example says he has 'similar gestures', but I find it hard to believe that it translates into "our shields have equal AP".
    • The second is literally nothing but Doom adding his power to Strange's. Its not like they said he matched Strange's power with his own, he just added his.
    • The third example doesn't work at all because (a) Doom said he would just reinforce Doctor Strange's sphere by enlarging his own forcefield, absolutely nothing suggesting they're equal and (b) Doom says that was his armor's forcefield, which means it's not even from his magical shields.
  • Blocking Wolverine's shields are pretty good but there would need to be more evidence that they're really consistently 3-A otherwise it's an outlier.
 
5-B+ doesn't work since to get an upgrade like that you'd need an actual feat, or at least a stated multiplier, and not "well it's a lot stronger so we'll assume it can cross this gap". So that'll be a no from me.
Actually, it's called upscaling.

And something like a one-shot difference, especially when the gap for Baseline 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) is only 1.15x from what Doom currently scales to (1.2 yottatons) is enough to upscale since the one-shot indicates a large gap.
The 3-A proposal for his AP is similarly bad: barely annoying Mephisto with the combined help of Doctor Strange is absolutely not good enough to justify such a large increase in power. The deconstruction cited as supporting evidence is quite frankly completely irrelevant, so it's a no to this too.
Fair.
5-B+ doesn't work since to get an upgrade like that you'd need an actual feat, or at least a stated multiplier, and not "well it's a lot stronger so we'll assume it can cross this gap"
One-shot gap via holding his own against someone who one-shot a 1.2 yottaton character, see above.
As for the durability shields:
  • The first feat for him blocking Model 42's shot isn't a no-sell, where did you get this from? Iron Man simply says "I can't get through his shield", not "his shield completely negates my attacks" or "his shield doesn't feel a thing".
It still shows that his forcefields >> his AP, as Iron Man Mark 42 matched him in power in the fight but couldn't break through his shields (until later when he had to focus all his energy on just one spot on the shield).
  • Model 51 feat seems solid, but I have two questions: (a) what is this comic from
From Infamous Iron Man #2
  • and (b) the fact that he had to use a "combined" spell defense implies that he can't really no-sell Model 51 without some decent effort.
Maybe.
  • There's no source for no-selling the Hulkbuster attack.
Same issue (Infamous Iron Man #2), but for some reason every time I posted the image on imgur it got scrubbed instantly.
  • "His shield's are repeatedly compared to Doctor Strange's" hmm.
    • The first example says he has 'similar gestures', but I find it hard to believe that it translates into "our shields have equal AP".
Fair.
    • The second is literally nothing but Doom adding his power to Strange's. Its not like they said he matched Strange's power with his own, he just added his.
Strange wanting Doom to add his power to defend against Mephisto's fire blast implies comparability, as otherwise any contribution of magic from Doom would've been worthless.
    • The third example doesn't work at all because (a) Doom said he would just reinforce Doctor Strange's sphere by enlarging his own forcefield, absolutely nothing suggesting they're equal
The fact that Doom's forcefield could provide a notable boost to Strange already implies that it is comparable, since otherwise its contribution would be insignificant.
    • and (b) Doom says that was his armor's forcefield, which means it's not even from his magical shields.
Hence why earlier I said Doom's forcefields, magic and otherwise.
  • Blocking Wolverine's shields are pretty good but there would need to be more evidence that they're really consistently 3-A otherwise it's an outlier.
Neutral.
 
Actually, it's called upscaling.

And something like a one-shot difference, especially when the gap for Baseline 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) is only 1.15x from what Doom currently scales to (1.2 yottatons) is enough to upscale since the one-shot indicates a large gap.
What constitutes a oneshot gap can vary wildly in Marvel though, so this isn't particularly helpful either way. Also, do we have any actual hard numbers on how high upscaling can go or is this purely an estimate?

It still shows that his forcefields >> his AP, as Iron Man Mark 42 matched him in power in the fight but couldn't break through his shields (until later when he had to focus all his energy on just one spot on the shield).
You were arguing it was a 'no-sell', which is unproven. We can say the forcefields are > Mark 42 AP (the fact that they still managed to break after shows it's not by that large a gap, no less the fact that they broke from a 5-B attack).

Same issue (Infamous Iron Man #2), but for some reason every time I posted the image on imgur it got scrubbed instantly.
One of us ****** up because all I'm getting from Infamous Iron Man #2 is the beginning of a fight between Ben Grimm and Doom, no iron man in sight. On that note, Doom should have resistance to Sleep Manip since he's unaffected by sleeping gas (Infamous Iron Man Issue 4) through seemingly magical means.
Strange wanting Doom to add his power to defend against Mephisto's fire blast implies comparability, as otherwise any contribution of magic from Doom would've been worthless.
No? It just means Strange needed more power to contribute. It could've been a little or a lot or exactly as much as Strange had, nothing in the text would hint to the actual amount.
The fact that Doom's forcefield could provide a notable boost to Strange already implies that it is comparable, since otherwise its contribution would be insignificant.
What?? All Doom said was that he'd reinforce his own spell. A reinforcement has absolutely no requirement to be as strong as what it is reinforcing, as long as it's adding anything it helps. Also it doesn't have to be comparable to be significant...? They were in a tense situation where anything would be better than nothing, and at that moment Doom wasn't so good with magic that he had a shitton of options to choose from.

Fair enough on the shields and otherwise point, although if we're applying it to shields in general I'd be surprised if his forcefields didn't get broken a lot. Though Doom was injured (shoot in the arm), he didn't mind his injury at all--which makes The Thing smashing through Doom's shield in a few punches (Issue 4 of Infamous Iron Man) not great.
 
Actually, in Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment, Doom states that even when he multiplied his armor's power reserves by 10, Strange's magic made him superior.

As shown in the OP, Doom with magic was able to fight Mephisto on a level equal to Doctor Strange in Infamous Iron Man #12. Thus, if the 3-C end is not accepted, Doom with magic (and Strange at minimum) could be:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power reserves multiplied tenfold).
 
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Actually, in Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment, Doom states that even when he multiplied his armor's power level by 10, Strange's magic made him superior.

As shown in the OP, Doom with magic was able to fight Mephisto on a level equal to Doctor Strange in Infamous Iron Man #12. Thus, if the 3-C end is not accepted, Doom with magic (and Strange at minimum) could be:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).
Added this to the OP.
 
It's a case-by-case basis, but 1.15x is acceptable iirc. Anything more than 1.3x is usually where hard evidence is needed, but even gaps as big as 1.5x have been accepted as long as the reasoning is strong enough
What is your opinion on the OP (especially the High 3-A magic shield)?
 
Thank you for helping out. 🙏
 
What is your opinion on the OP (especially the High 3-A magic shield)?
Sorry for the late reply
Thus, his Magic would upscale to Baseline 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) due to how small the gap between 1.38 and 1.2 yottatons is. The above proposal means that Doctor Strange's 5-B base would be slightly bumped up to 5-B+ for being at minimum comparable to Doom w/Magic.
This makes sense to me
However, in relation to the 2nd feat, Doctor Doom (who was in his "Infamous Iron Man" phase) using magic and Doctor Strange together were able to briefly fight and even stagger/hurt Mephisto with a combined magic attack in Infamous Iron Man #12, though they only banished him with a non-magic attack from Infamous Iron Man Doom's armor and they were likely still inferior to Earth-Mephisto.

Mephisto outside of Hell scales to 3-C via stomping the Silver Surfer. Thus, Doom w/ magic would scale to 63 Zettafoe like all other Marvel 3-C people since Mephisto outside of Hell stomped Silver Surfer who scales to the 63 Zettafoe calc.
I don't really see much of them hurting Mephisto in those scans
On a non-magic note, in Fantastic Four (2023) #7, Doom using energy blades presumably from his armor one-shots Annihilus on two separate occasions. Annihilus is 5-B (1.2 yottatons) being superior to The Thing.

Thus, both Doom's magic and energy blades are shown to be far above his base, and thus both should be upscaled to 5-B+ (1.38 yottatons) at minimum, especially since the gap between 1.2 and 1.38 yottatons is quite small.
Seems fine
As for his durability, Doom's forcefields, both magic and otherwise, have constantly been shown as having durability vastly above his own power level, such as blocking blasts from Nova (Guardians of the Galaxy [2020] #14), utterly no-selling blasts from Iron Man's Model 42, Model 51, and Hulkbuster armors, all of which scale on the same level as Doom's AP, and being repeatedly shown as comparable to Strange's own forcefield, which in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts #69 blocked his own attacks reflected back at him but with their power multiplied a hundredfold.

Most impressively, in Midnight Suns #2, Doom's magic shield managed to block Wolverine's adamantium claws, which as you may know are High 3-A.

And unlike his standard durability and AP, his forcefields really haven't been shattered that often, especially not by people on his level, so there are few if any anti-feats.

Thus, his durability section should scale to one of these feats, or just say "far higher with forcefields". "5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic".

If High 3-A isn't accepted, since his forcefields are comparable to Strange's which blocked blasts that were 100x Strange's AP, his durability could be 138 yottatons. So, if for whatever reason the Wolverine claw feat isn't accepted, it could be, "5-B, up to 5-A (138 yottatons) with forcefields"
High 3-A forcefields via Wolverine's claws should work
 
Sorry for the late reply

This makes sense to me

I don't really see much of them hurting Mephisto in those scans
He and Strange stagger Mephisto with a combined attack here, though admittedly it is brief.


But if that doesn't work, what about this:

Actually, in Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment, Doom states that even when he multiplied his armor's power level by 10, Strange's magic made him superior.

As shown in the OP, Doom with magic was able to fight Mephisto on a level equal to Doctor Strange in Infamous Iron Man #12. Thus, if the 3-C end is not accepted, Doom with magic (and Strange at minimum) could be:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).


High 3-A forcefields via Wolverine's claws should work
Yay!.
 
He and Strange stagger Mephisto with a combined attack here, though admittedly it is brief.

But if that doesn't work, what about this:
I don't think staggering is enough to properly scale them to Mephisto
Actually, in Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment, Doom states that even when he multiplied his armor's power level by 10, Strange's magic made him superior.

As shown in the OP, Doom with magic was able to fight Mephisto on a level equal to Doctor Strange in Infamous Iron Man #12. Thus, if the 3-C end is not accepted, Doom with magic (and Strange at minimum) could be:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).
Sure, I don't see a problem
 
My thoughts are pretty much the same as Marvel_Champion_07.
I don't think staggering is enough to properly scale them to Mephisto

Sure, I don't see a problem
1. So that's 1 thread mod agreement and one other staff agreement. Is that enough to pass this CRT (since it isn't really that big) or should I get 1 or 2 more staff members to come and give input?

2. Here is what the accepted revisions will look like:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Repeatedly shown as comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked a slash from Wolverine's adamantium claws)
 
So that's 1 thread mod agreement and one other staff agreement. Is that enough to pass this CRT (since it isn't really that big) or should I get 1 or 2 more staff members to come and give input?
Generally speaking, 2-3 staff votes from Thread Mods, Admins and/or Bureaucrats are needed to apply a CRT
Here is what the accepted revisions will look like:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Repeatedly shown as comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked a slash from Wolverine's adamantium claws)
Looks good
 
1. So that's 1 thread mod agreement and one other staff agreement. Is that enough to pass this CRT (since it isn't really that big) or should I get 1 or 2 more staff members to come and give input?

2. Here is what the accepted revisions will look like:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Repeatedly shown as comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked a slash from Wolverine's adamantium claws)
I think this is ok.
 
That's 2 voting staff and 1 other staff member who agree, so I'll just wait a bit to see if there are any objections.

Also, I will need Doctor Doom's page as well as Doctor Strange's page to be unlocked, the latter scaling to 10x Doom's normal output.
 
1. So that's 1 thread mod agreement and one other staff agreement. Is that enough to pass this CRT (since it isn't really that big) or should I get 1 or 2 more staff members to come and give input?

2. Here is what the accepted revisions will look like:

AP: "5-B, 5-B+ with Energy Blades, up to 5-A (12 yottatons) with magic (Repeatedly shown as comparable to Doctor Strange, who Doom stated was superior to his standard armor even with its power multiplied tenfold).

Durability: 5-B, up to High 3-A with Magic Defenses (Blocked a slash from Wolverine's adamantium claws)
Looks okay.
 
Actually, double-checking one of the scans, Doom says that even with his armor's power reserves multiplied by 10, he can't keep up with Strange's magic.

That may affect the 10x multiplier, and if it does, then Doom's magic would just upscale to 5-B+ alongside his energy blades, so I just want to know if you all still think the 10x multiplier is valid.
Looks okay.
I think this is ok.
I don't think staggering is enough to properly scale them to Mephisto

Sure, I don't see a problem

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Marvel_Champion_07.
Thoughts before I put this in?

Also, I need Doom's page and Strange's page unlocked.


 
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Actually, double-checking one of the scans, Doom says that even with his armor's power reserves multiplied by 10, he can't keep up with Strange's magic.

That may affect the 10x multiplier, and if it does, then Doom's magic would just upscale to 5-B+ alongside his energy blades.
Thoughts before I put this in?

Also, I need Doom's page and Strange's page unlocked.


Generally speaking, 2-3 staff votes from Thread Mods, Admins and/or Bureaucrats are needed to apply a CRT

Looks good
My thoughts are pretty much the same as Marvel_Champion_07.
Champion and Tracer, if you 2 could respond to the 2 top messages of mine that'd be great.
 
Also, I need Doom's page and Strange's page unlocked.

Forgot to tell you, I unlocked these two awhile ago
Actually, double-checking one of the scans, Doom says that even with his armor's power reserves multiplied by 10, he can't keep up with Strange's magic.

That may affect the 10x multiplier, and if it does, then Doom's magic would just upscale to 5-B+ alongside his energy blades.
I personally think it's still valid
 
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