DMC Nero Upgrade (and potential downgrade)

[Mageman460]

So I got into the DMC series kind of recently and something seemed off about Nero's profile. Specifically some of his tiers seemed wrong.

DMC 4
In the current DMC 4 scaling for Nero's Pre DT state, Nero is rated above Echidna who he doesn't fight until after he awakens his DT. He still fights Berial who has a 1.1 Kiloton feat, which is Low 7-C, and Bael who creates a Blizzard. So Nero should probably be downgraded to ... Low 7-B I think is the value for storm/blizzard creation. Or an alternate justification for his tier needs to be given.

DMC 5
Now for the juicy upgrade. So there are multiple reasons throughout the game for Nero to get upgraded from his current rating. The starting reasons is Nero being flat out superior to V. V states this at the beginning of the game, and to further support it Nero took down two different opponents V or Griffon say they can not defeat.

Gilgamesh
To start there is Gilgamesh. V both claim that Gilgamesh is too much for them and V proceeds to run away from the demon.


Nero proceeds to beat the very same demon.


Malphas
V also doesn't want to fight Malphas


This is further clarified in the Visions of V manga that has Griffon state Malphas is a bit too much for them to handle. Sorry I can't find this atm, but if I do I'll edit it in.

Some support is that Malphas takes and seals all of V's familiars during Mission 14.


Furthermore, Malphas claims to be the greatest sorcerer in all of hell.

Nero then goes on to fight and kill Malphas. He even (unknowingly) saves a cowering V from Malphas.


Statement
Nero's whole involvement in the story is because V felt Urizen's power and realized they would lose. He then goes to get more power in the form of Nero.

Why does this matter?
All of this is proof that Nero is above V. Now V himself isn't really that strong, he only ever gets the killing blow against his enemies and can't really do damage. V is weak in both the lore and gameplay sense. V's strength comes from his summons; Griffon, Shadow, and Nightmare. The big one here is the last one, Nightmare. V feels that he can't beat Gilgamesh, Malphas, or Urizen. This includes with the power of Nightmare and instead opts to let Nero fight and beat Gilgamesh and Malphas. Nightmare is High 3-A, possibly low 2-C. I'm proposing that Nero should scale above Nightmare by virtue of taking down enemies that V doesn't think he himself is capable of taking on.

But wait, there's more!
Now why stop at just scaling above Nightmare when there's a better feat that Nero has? Nero is the first character to break Urizen's barrier and proceeds to make him bleed. This is especially notable because not only does Dante himself fail to break the barrier. Dante fails to break the barrier using Devil Trigger and the Sword of Sparda, his most powerful Devil Arm.

DT Dante with Rebellion failing to break the barrier

Devil May Cry 5 Urizen vs Dante Urizen Breaks Rebellion

Devil May Cry 5 Urizen vs Dante

youtu.be

DT Dante with Sparda failing to break the barrier

DEVIL MAY CRY 5 (2019) Gameplay Walkthrough - Mission 11 (No Commentary)

A couple extra combos and I actually am getting better with him haha!Cheers#DevilMayCry5 #DMC5 #walkthrough #DMC #devilmaycry #gameplayFeel free to message m...

youtu.be

So with this, Nero pre-DT in DMC V should scale above beginning of DMC V DT Dante. DMC V Nero should be 2-C via scaling above beginning of DMC V Dante.

Conclusions
DMC 4 Nero should have his Pre DT key's justification changed or his tier needs to be changed. He's likely going to downgrade to Berial's Low 7-C or one of the generic storm calcs.

DMC V Pre DT Nero should be scaled above Beginning of DMC V Dante to 2-C. Nero being above V, and by extension Nightmare, should be included as support for why he scales.

Bonus: This upgrades Malphas and Gilgamesh (no profile) to High 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C.

Counter Argument
Nero breaking the barrier is PIS/Outlier
This is why I provided evidence of him being above Nightmare as well. Nero is far above Nightmare to the point that he easily takes on opponents that V fears.

V is weakened and doesn't like using Nightmare
Gilgamesh is still at V's "prime" and V still runs away. Malphas is a life or death situation and despite being found V is terrified. V still considers beginning of game Nero above him and requests his assistance against Urizen. This is V days after being "born" and essentially full on demonic energy. Basically there's no reason not to include Nightmare among these summons when saying Nero >> V.

Agree (with all):
Agree (with DMC 4):
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Deadguy]

Neutral about dmc4 change leaning towards disagreement because berial who lived and ruled hellfire section which considered to be one of most cruelest and worst places in the underworld

Disagree with 2-C pre DT nero V didn't want to fight gilgamesh because he is low in power as he have few hours before dying from running outta of energy as V was in his peak was before a month and yet he couldn't keep nightmare but for few seconds so and he get exhausted from that and dude V literally was dying and falling apart and can hardly walk when he saw malphs so he isn't risking summoning nightmare especially when all of that happened he had few hours to live

V only brought nero because he was so hopeless anyway he stated in dmc5 manga that he's gonna use anyone regardless of who they are V is just desperately trying to change the outcome that he knows that he's gonna face

As for him nero breaking the barrier and injuring urizen it's an outlier he never showed any similar feats in that key so yea no

 

[Mister6ame6]

DMC4 Nero along with some of the low tiers and mid tiers need some revamp in their AP, speed and LS sections, we are going to do something in the future.

DMC4 Nero Pre DT key would be something like this when the CTR is made:

Attack Potency: At least Building level+ (Shoudn't be weaker than his Before the Nightmare self, who could fight a Blitz even after losing his Devil Bringer), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was grow more stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him. Can easily fight against Echidna and Comparable to DMC3 Dante before he awakening his demonic powers)

Berial is the rule of the fire hell, one of the harsh and cruest places to live in the DW (I'm need to remember where is the scan tho), and Echidna is the rule of the Demon World forest, Berial scale to her with a ''likely'' because lore wise, they are demons on the same rank

For now, i'm neutral about DMC5 Nero scaling above Nightmare.

Urizen is a outlier, since he don't have comparable feats when he do that, that's the only feat on that level that Nero show before awakening his true Devil Trigger.

 

[Deadguy]

Also another reason why dmc5 pre DT nero shouldn't scale is that the novel confirms that dante was able to keep up with urizen for hours in their first fight and in dmc5 manga nero produce to get oneshotted by urizen

 

[KLOL506]

Neutral about dmc4 change leaning towards disagreement because berial who lived and ruled hellfire section which considered to be one of most cruelest and worst places in the underworld

Disagree with 2-C pre DT nero V didn't want to fight gilgamesh because he is low in as he have few hours before dying from running outta of energy as V was in his peak was before a month and yet he couldn't keep nightmare but for few seconds so and he get exhausted from that and dude V literally was dying and falling apart and can hardly walk when he saw malphs so he isn't risking summoning nightmare especially when all of that happened he had few hours to live

V only brought nero because he was so hopeless anyway he stated in dmc5 manga that he's gonna use anyone regardless of who they are V is just desperately trying to change the outcome that he knows that he's gonna face

As for him nero breaking the barrier and injuring urizen it's an outlier he never showed any similar feats in that key so yea no

Agree with this.

 

[Mageman460]

Neutral about dmc4 change leaning towards disagreement because berial who lived and ruled hellfire section which considered to be one of most cruelest and worst places in the underworld

Disagree with 2-C pre DT nero V didn't want to fight gilgamesh because he is low in as he have few hours before dying from running outta of energy as V was in his peak was before a month and yet he couldn't keep nightmare but for few seconds so and he get exhausted from that and dude V literally was dying and falling apart and can hardly walk when he saw malphs so he isn't risking summoning nightmare especially when all of that happened he had few hours to live

V only brought nero because he was so hopeless anyway he stated in dmc5 manga that he's gonna use anyone regardless of who they are V is just desperately trying to change the outcome that he knows that he's gonna face

As for him nero breaking the barrier and injuring urizen it's an outlier he never showed any similar feats in that key so yea no

Nero beat Berial in mission 2. Berial was still healing from his wounds when he fought Dante. If you disagree with scaling to Berial, the who should Pre DT Nero scale to because he can't scale to someone he beat after he got his Devil Trigger in 4?

V didn't start crumbling and fading until after he found Dante. Which is after he encountered Gilgamesh. This is also after he first saw Malphas and Griffon says they wouldn't stand a chance. V sees Malphas twice, the first time is right before the Geryon fight. The second time is right before the Nero fight. The statement from Griffon is from the first encounter, not the second. On top of that Malphas was quite literally a life or death situation. Malphas stole and sealed Nightmare and the other summons from V.

V still considered Nero as more capable to change their destiny than himself.

If Nero is above Nightmare, as I am proposing, then he is above people who are above Nightmare. He's rather casually above them at that. Granted I know there's still quite the difference between these tiers and am willing to drop it if people would rather Nero scale to Nightmare.

DMC4 Nero along with some of the low tiers and mid tiers need some revamp in their AP, speed and LS sections, we are going to do something in the future.

DMC4 Nero Pre DT key would be something like this when the CTR is made:

Attack Potency: At least Building level+ (Shoudn't be weaker than his Before the Nightmare self, who could fight a Blitz even after losing his Devil Bringer), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was grow more stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him. Can easily fight against Echidna and Comparable to DMC3 Dante before he awakening his demonic powers)

Berial is the rule of the fire hell, one of the harsh and cruest places to live in the DW (I'm need to remember where is the scan tho), and Echidna is the rule of the Demon World forest, Berial scale to her with a ''likely'' because lore wise, they are demons on the same rank

For now, i'm neutral about DMC5 Nero scaling above Nightmare.

Urizen is a outlier, since he don't have comparable feats when he do that, that's the only feat on that level that Nero show before awakening his true Devil Trigger.

Ah my bad wasn't aware. He still shouldn't directly scale to Echidna in Pre-DT key, so would it be possible to reword that? Even if it's simply being above Berial who's equal to Echidna. The closest other feat is casually above Malphas and Gilgamesh who I'm trying to get above Nightmare. But yeah understandable.

Also another reason why dmc5 pre DT nero shouldn't scale is that the novel confirms that dante was able to keep up with urizen for hours in their first fight and in dmc5 manga nero produce to get oneshotted by urizen

Honestly hardly seems like there was much of a fight between Dante and Urizen. Urizen was sitting the entire fight and mainly attacked with the tentacles from what we saw. Up until he broke Rebellion at least. Nero still broke the barrier that DT Dante couldn't on two separate occasions and then also made Urizen bleed. Also just to make sure, I'm referring to Nero from the main story, not the one month prior. Bu again, I understand if most people are against 2-C Nero, then I'll drop it.

 

[Deadguy]

Griffon didn't make that statement when he first saw her he said that when they saw her a second time which V was falling apart and they couldn't fight her in that condition and V already got all his summons before their second encounter




Again V only entrusted nero because he is outta of options as nightmare is only needed when he can win with him or he just gonna get exhausted and lose alot of power for nothing because unlike the others bringing nightmare will have a negative impact on him and make him run outta of his energy faster

 

[Mageman460]

Griffon didn't make that statement when he first saw her he said that when they saw her a second time which V was falling apart and they couldn't fight her in that condition and V already got all his summons before their second encounter




Again V only entrusted nero because he is outta of options as nightmare is only needed when he can win with him or he just gonna get exhausted and lose alot of power for nothing because unlike the others bringing nightmare will have a negative impact on him and make him run outta of his energy faster

The statement is made in the manga (I just can't seem to upload the scan). It was made in Chapter 26 I think. It's labelled weird where I'm reading it. Griffon tells V that Malphas is "a bit too much to handle for us."

The game itself never had such a crippling demerit for Nightmare I believe, even lore wise. In the tutorial for V Griffon even tells you to use Nightmare against a group of fodder. The manga has V say that he can only use Nightmare for a few seconds, and even then he still considers using Nero over using Nightmare to support Dante. So yeah, it seems that V believes Nero > Nightmare. Nero also beats opponents that V says he couldn't.

 

[Deadguy]

He most likely just referring to themselves without nightmare since V rarely summons nightmare into battlefield as in the game he mention "of course more trouble" meaning not that they can't handle her but she would be too hard to put down without nightmare also you should consider that the more V gets weaker the more his summoning also get weakened with him something that elaborated in the manga when griffon started to realize that when he started feeling that v is heavier than before

And I don't think griffon encourage V to use nightmare infact when he summoned nightmare to get rid of lesser demons in the store that action have angered griffon saying that he "took too far" so no griffon doesn't support that decision at all

 

[Deadguy]

And then again the reason why he used nero is because using nightmare is more risky for his life and it will faster his death like he knew that no matter what he chose the outcome is the same for them to be defeated by urizen but he take what negatively effect him the least so I don't see how nero is more riskier than nightmare given the fact of how badly is the side effects from summoning nightmare

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

While CRT makes good points on paper, there many things wrong. I will explain later since I have to deal with GoW shitstorm first.

I disagree. Explanation coming ahortly.

 

[Thehunter077]

I believe pre DT DMC 4Nero scale bit higher, Dante even admit he underestimated on their first encounter.

As for base DMC 5 Nero feats for breaking Ergil shield well... Its outlier because after that he proceed to get one shooted while Dante get KO twice yet he still manage to fight him even for hour.

 

[RisingIons]

I disagree with Nero scaling above Dante.

 

[Deadguy]

Tho we can maybe give nero "likely high 3-A possibly low 2-C" because the gilgamesh one is up to interpretation if I'm being honest but I'm still iffy about it so count me neutral for now

 

[Sevil Natas]

Early game DMC 5 nero could be High 3-A, since he's constantly implied to be stronger than V and thus nightmare so thats fine, however early Nero scaling to dante is a huge no

 

[Mister6ame6]

Ah my bad wasn't aware. He still shouldn't directly scale to Echidna in Pre-DT key, so would it be possible to reword that? Even if it's simply being above Berial who's equal to Echidna. The closest other feat is casually above Malphas and Gilgamesh who I'm trying to get above Nightmare. But yeah understandable.

Yeap, it can be reword, i'm will said that he should be similar to Berial's profile for now atleast, being at least Low 7-C, likely 7B, and leave the rest for the low tier scaling CTR when it comes.

Malphas and Gilgamesh being above Nightmare is something that i don't have problems atm, Nero is consistently applied to be above V and the summons, so i can see him getting a H3A, possibly L2C key from that at bare minimum.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

DMC 4
In the current DMC 4 scaling for Nero's Pre DT state, Nero is rated above Echidna who he doesn't fight until after he awakens his DT. He still fights Berial who has a 1.1 Kiloton feat, which is Low 7-C, and Bael who creates a Blizzard. So Nero should probably be downgraded to ... Low 7-B I think is the value for storm/blizzard creation. Or an alternate j

DMC4 PreDT Nero scales from Berial who already is already rated as Low7C likely 7B.
So all that needs to be done is reworded to 1)Nero casually stomps Berial( AP :- Low7C likely 7B).
2) DMC3 PreDT Dante scales from stomping Cerberus who is rated stronger than Berial. So he will get same ratings via Cerberus.

Also Bael's feat is calculated as 8A, since Blizzard was limited to castle.

For rest of stuff, I'll need a new comment.

 

[Thehunter077]

DMC4 PreDT Nero scales from Berial who already is already rated as Low7C likely 7B.
So all that needs to be done is reworded to 1)Nero casually stomps Berial( AP :- Low7C likely 7B).
2) DMC3 PreDT Dante scales from stomping Cerberus who is rated stronger than Berial. So he will get same ratings via Cerberus.

Also Bael's feat is calculated as 8A, since Blizzard was limited to castle.

For rest of stuff, I'll need a new comment.

Should Berial at least scale to Mundus general as Griffon? He's king of Hell fire in demon world and I believe he should be possibly island lvl.

 

[Mageman460]

DMC4 PreDT Nero scales from Berial who already is already rated as Low7C likely 7B.
So all that needs to be done is reworded to 1)Nero casually stomps Berial( AP :- Low7C likely 7B).
2) DMC3 PreDT Dante scales from stomping Cerberus who is rated stronger than Berial. So he will get same ratings via Cerberus.

Also Bael's feat is calculated as 8A, since Blizzard was limited to castle.

For rest of stuff, I'll need a new comment.

Okay, as I said he just really needed a new justification for DMC 4 Pre DT, if not a new tier.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Should Berial at least scale to Mundus general as Griffon? He's king of Hell fire in demon world and I believe he should be possibly island lvl.

@Thehunter077
1) Being Mundus Elite is best job in demon world, if Berial was capable or stronger he would already be Mundus General, but he isn't.
Being a Fire Helllord isn't enough, especially with no point of comparison.

2) It creates a circular scaling chain where Berial Scales above Trish, since Mundus Generals scale above Cavelier and Elder Geryon.

Meanwhile not even DMC4 DT Nero scales above Trish. Trish scales to Full Saviour.
While Nero scales to weak saviour.

You can see the severe problem with this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Okay, So for DMC5 Nero.

OP has used two Demons to scale him for getting low2C.
Malphas and Gilgamesh.

First I'll handle Malphas.

First. Malphas is complete hax lord. She passively nullifies and power absorbs everything that comes near her stones.

Her traps(which are made of same stone) completely haxxed the living shit out of V. And by extension Nightmare who got sealed away.

So V already had zero chance of even approaching her. All of Nightmare’s Long Range attacks will also be useless since they will get nullfied the moment it reaches her passive haxxes( Which is very short ranged passive but still protects her person)

And we have zero indication of Malphas being physically stronger.
Even her hype is in context of her being sorceress.

Malphas is that character in DMC, who dominates by hax alone.

So she is certified low2C in hax potency. But nothing to do with AP.

This her hax list.
You can see why she is a justified haxlord.
This is from demon physiology page/Malphas page

• Improved Soul Manipulation, BFR, Power Absorption, Power Nullification, Forced Healing, Sealing, Telepathy, Duplication and Power Mimicry (Nero was unaffected by the Maphas's stones, just like Dante while Malphas was shown to also use her stones for traps[150]. The stones from Malphas's body can steal the cores of V's summons and lock them away and also traps V in a pocket dimension, which can take away his demonic/magic powers and can also heal him[151], the stones can also recreate Goliath, Cavaliere Angelo and Artemis out of V's memory[151] and Nero was also unaffected by the stones on Malpha's body and on the surroundings when he fought against her[150])

Click to expand...

As for Nero, he just casually resist her haxxes and AP stomps her to death casually.

So Malphas is staying where she is.
You can probably make her 6C, but we have no feats for her.

I'll handle Gilgamesh later.

 

[BlastX]

Following

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I have some problems with this

In the current DMC 4 scaling for Nero's Pre DT state, Nero is rated above Echidna who he doesn't fight until after he awakens his DT. He still fights Berial who has a 1.1 Kiloton feat, which is Low 7-C, and Bael who creates a Blizzard. So Nero should probably be downgraded to ... Low 7-B I think is the value for storm/blizzard creation. Or an alternate justification for his tier needs to be given.

Strong Instability Thunderstorms, which is what Echidna did, are listed at 9.6 Megatons, close to basleine, but still City level

V also doesn't want to fight Malphas

Malphas is capable of removing his summons at will, just like she did in Mission 14, therefore, we can't fully scale Malphas to Low 2-C via V's statements, since her main ability completely negates his main power source (his summons), which absolutely explains why V wants to avoid her

More importantly, despite having powerful summons, V still is only "human" (he has Tier 9 feats, but whatever), his summons don't amp him physically, his summons don't make him faster, Griffon being, say, afraid of V's condition against some enemies is completely expected and justified because even if the summons can take the fight, V wouldn't be able to, or at least it would be under extreme danger.

One must always have an insurance policy, right ? Being careful and selecting ur opponents can't be used as evidence for AP in every situation, it could work, but V is a very special and different character

Nero's whole involvement in the story is because V felt Urizen's power and realized they would lose. He then goes to get more power in the form of Nero.

The same V who planned to give Nero the DSS in order to fight, Griffon even said he would be smashed like a bug

Now why stop at just scaling above Nightmare when there's a better feat that Nero has? Nero is the first character to break Urizen's barrier and proceeds to make him bleed. This is especially notable because not only does Dante himself fail to break the barrier. Dante fails to break the barrier using Devil Trigger and the Sword of Sparda, his most powerful Devil Arm.

I'm aware that you added Nightmare as back up for this, but said back up has two problems

The first one is the first part of my post, the second one is, literally, that not being enough

You see, DMC's God Tiers may be WAY above the regular characters, but inside the Tier there is a MASSIVE scaling chain, completely and absolutely dwarfing Nightmare. Currently, he scales to nobody, he has his own Low 2-C feat. He, however, is defeated by DMC1 Dante, who's currently 2-C (Accepted, we are just waiting for the profile to be unlocked to add), that Dante scales higher than POC Dante and Pluto, who has a 2-C feat of cutting the Original Universe in half and creating two (Human World and Demon World) in the process

Then we have Dormant Mundus who's stronger than DMC1 Dante, then Full Power Mundus, who's way above that to the point of DMC1 Dante, even in Regular DT, having no chance against him (This is stated by the game if you try to equip Alastor or Ifrit in the battle against Mundus), and needing Devil Sword Sparda to fight him. After that we have Argosax, who's stated to be equal to Full Power Mundus, said being was stomped by base DMC2 Dante, who then get stronger in 4, then in 5, then Urizen appears one shoting Devil Trigger DMC5 Dante, the difference between Nightmare and Urizen is terrifying at the very least. It's true that V said "with Nightmare I can oppose him", but that was based on his first view of Urizen, which is when he was born, when they meet Urizen at the Qliphoth, V literally is fear haxed by his presence and realizes how doomed Dante and his group is in fighting there, which makes him bring Nero to try to help. During the fight, he states how Urizen was stronger than he ever could have imagined (Which is justified by the scaling chain I showed)

Worth saying that I didn't showed every piece of scaling, since we still have Medea, Abigail, Chen and Void Mundus in the middle, the actual list is even bigger

So yes, Nero breaking Urizen's shield is an Outlier, and a big one, as even scaling him to Nightmare is...iffy, and even then, the difference between Nightmare and Urizen is massive, and not enough to actually hold the claim. Nero's feat could be a "glimpse" of his True Devil Trigger power, but that wouldn't be necessary on the profile since well, it already covers his TDT feats

 

[Mageman460]

Spoiler: GilverTheProtoAngelo Response

Okay, So for DMC5 Nero.

OP has used two Demons to scale him for getting low2C.
Malphas and Gilgamesh.

First I'll handle Malphas.

First. Malphas is complete hax lord. She passively nullifies and power absorbs everything that comes near her stones.

Her traps(which are made of same stone) completely haxxed the living shit out of V. And by extension Nightmare who got sealed away.

So V already had zero chance of even approaching her. All of Nightmare’s Long Range attacks will also be useless since they will get nullfied the moment it reaches her passive haxxes( Which is very short ranged passive but still protects her person)

And we have zero indication of Malphas being physically stronger.
Even her hype is in context of her being sorceress.

Malphas is that character in DMC, who dominates by hax alone.

So she is certified low2C in hax potency. But nothing to do with AP.

This her hax list.
You can see why she is a justified haxlord.
This is from demon physiology page/Malphas page



As for Nero, he just casually resist her haxxes and AP stomps her to death casually.

So Malphas is staying where she is.
You can probably make her 6C, but we have no feats for her.

I'll handle Gilgamesh later.

Wouldn't this still at the very least give DMC 5 Nero Reisistane to Power Null/Sealing on a Low 2-C scale?

I don't believe Malphas physically scales to low 2-C. I just thought her AP should.

Would V have known Malphas passively seals and nulls when he first saw her?

She currently is 6-C.

Her being hax in nature doesn't discount that she uses attacks as well. My question then becomes if we can scale her AP to her hax such as sealing/ nulling Nightmare because of the Universal Energy System of Demonic Energy.

Alternatively, why isn't it the case that Nero is just stronger than she can Power Null, with the upper limit that we've seen is Nightmare?

Spoiler: Lightning_XXI Response

I have some problems with this



Strong Instability Thunderstorms, which is what Echidna did, are listed at 9.6 Megatons, close to basleine, but still City level



Malphas is capable of removing his summons at will, just like she did in Mission 14, therefore, we can't fully scale Malphas to Low 2-C via V's statements, since her main ability completely negates his main power source (his summons), which absolutely explains why V wants to avoid her

More importantly, despite having powerful summons, V still is only "human" (he has Tier 9 feats, but whatever), his summons don't amp him physically, his summons don't make him faster, Griffon being, say, afraid of V's condition against some enemies is completely expected and justified because even if the summons can take the fight, V wouldn't be able to, or at least it would be under extreme danger.

One must always have an insurance policy, right ? Being careful and selecting ur opponents can't be used as evidence for AP in every situation, it could work, but V is a very special and different character



The same V who planned to give Nero the DSS in order to fight, Griffon even said he would be smashed like a bug



I'm aware that you added Nightmare as back up for this, but said back up has two problems

The first one is the first part of my post, the second one is, literally, that not being enough

You see, DMC's God Tiers may be WAY above the regular characters, but inside the Tier there is a MASSIVE scaling chain, completely and absolutely dwarfing Nightmare. Currently, he scales to nobody, he has his own Low 2-C feat. He, however, is defeated by DMC1 Dante, who's currently 2-C (Accepted, we are just waiting for the profile to be unlocked to add), that Dante scales higher than POC Dante and Pluto, who has a 2-C feat of cutting the Original Universe in half and creating two (Human World and Demon World) in the process

Then we have Dormant Mundus who's stronger than DMC1 Dante, then Full Power Mundus, who's way above that to the point of DMC1 Dante, even in Regular DT, having no chance against him (This is stated by the game if you try to equip Alastor or Ifrit in the battle against Mundus), and needing Devil Sword Sparda to fight him. After that we have Argosax, who's stated to be equal to Full Power Mundus, said being was stomped by base DMC2 Dante, who then get stronger in 4, then in 5, then Urizen appears one shoting Devil Trigger DMC5 Dante, the difference between Nightmare and Urizen is terrifying at the very least. It's true that V said "with Nightmare I can oppose him", but that was based on his first view of Urizen, which is when he was born, when they meet Urizen at the Qliphoth, V literally is fear haxed by his presence and realizes how doomed Dante and his group is in fighting there, which makes him bring Nero to try to help. During the fight, he states how Urizen was stronger than he ever could have imagined (Which is justified by the scaling chain I showed)

Worth saying that I didn't showed every piece of scaling, since we still have Medea, Abigail, Chen and Void Mundus in the middle, the actual list is even bigger

So yes, Nero breaking Urizen's shield is an Outlier, and a big one, as even scaling him to Nightmare is...iffy, and even then, the difference between Nightmare and Urizen is massive, and not enough to actually hold the claim. Nero's feat could be a "glimpse" of his True Devil Trigger power, but that wouldn't be necessary on the profile since well, it already covers his TDT feats

The DMC 4 Pre DT is scaling directly to Echidna, who he doesn't fight until after he awakens his DT. That was my only issue with it.

Is V aware she could just remove his summons? And the same as above, is it possible to scale Malphas's AP to her sealing/power null hax because of the Demonic Energy manipulation?

V is certainly human, but he still has feats fighting various characters, not doing damage to them, but surviving fights.

V still believed Nero + DSS would have had more of a chance than V himself would have. Granted, this is more of a hypothetical here.

The god tier scaling.
First off ... the 2-C stuff was honestly more reach. I thought I should at least try, but yeah, completely understand. I really do believe Nero is above Nightmare.

I understand that the scaling chain is huge. I thought DMC 1 Dante was still going to be Low 2-C and 2-C with Sparda DT? Although tbf, I did make this CRT before your CRT. Should also state, not trying to scale Nero to Urizen for scratching him. I'm tying to scale Nero above Dante for doing more damage to Urizen nd even breaking his barrier.

I'm willing to drop 2-C after that though tbh. I understand most people are opposed to it and it's still a massive jump. I thought that Nero being casually above Malphas/Gilgamesh who I have stated as above Nightmare would at least warrant discussion, but understand it was a bit of a reach.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Wouldn't this still at the very least give DMC 5 Nero Reisistane to Power Null/Sealing on a Low 2-C scale?

He already does, in fact he has two, one from Mundus as well.

I don't believe Malphas physically scales to low 2-C. I just thought her AP should.

I mean she doesn't have any attack that scales above herself. There can't be a difference between striking strength and AP.

Would V have known Malphas passively seals and nulls when he first saw her?

Well both V and Familiars have knowledge from their time in Demon World, they even recognized her. So as far as game goes, they do seem to have prerequisite knowledge on her, which would atleast include rudimentary info on her powers.

She currently is 6-C.

Damn, I forgot.
Haven't even considered in scaling chain.

Her being hax in nature doesn't discount that she uses attacks as well. My question then becomes if we can scale her AP to her hax such as sealing/ nulling Nightmare because of the Universal Energy System of Demonic Energy

Well we don't actually scale AP to haxxes like that. It isn't allowed.
We profile feats for AP and Hax separately.

Alternatively, why isn't it the case that Nero is just stronger than she can Power Null, with the upper limit that we've seen is Nightmare?

Because DMC isn't Dragon Ball.

In this wiki we have every fodder demons resistant to DWE whivh is 4D/low2C, that's why we have smurf.
If this logic were to be applied every fodder demon would be low2C. Which you can see is very problematic.

Also back to Nero point, power null isn't the only hax Malphas have, she also have BFR, soul and forced healing, all haxxes that have nothing to do with power. Nero resisted all the same. So its resistance in general, not power.