Difference Between Conceptual, Information, and Advanced Manipulation.

[Firestorm808]

I would like to ask other staff for clarification on some abilities and possible overlap to add to the relevant resource pages.

Per our site, we have the following:

"Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level."

"Information Manipulation is the power to control, alter, and even destroy information itself. A vast variety of effects can be achieved using this ability, from gaining knowledge or altering what people know to warping reality itself. Note that Information Analysis and Data Manipulation are considered separate abilities."

I've seen disagreements on the forum of what we consider as manipulating a concept and where the line is drawn for Information Manipulation.

My understanding is that manipulating a concept involves changing the "definition" of a given abstract concept which, in turn, changes the physical world.

Per CM Type 1, changing the abstract definition of a circle to that of a square would turn everything circle-ish into square-ish. Pretty straight forward.

CM Type 2 is a little different.

Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.

Here, these abstract concepts are tied to the physical world. The example they give on the information page uses "humanity," but I feel that it's dependent on the setting whether destroying literal humanity will affect the actual abstract concept of humanity. IE: A setting where Humanity was eradicated thousands of years ago, but aliens still know what humans are.

Information Manipulation on a Fundamental level seems to get tricky when people propose that information is conceptual and that changing any information would be changing an abstract concept.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

To get our bearings, let's start off with a common example.

Using a Common Examples:

• Time
  • Time Manipulation: Time Manipulation (sometimes called Chronokinesis) is the ability to control time itself. Examples include time travel, Precognition, slowing down time, speeding up time, etc.
  • Manipulating the "Information" of "Time"
    • Type 2: What are examples of changing the "Information" of Time?
  • Manipulating the "Concept" of "Time"
    • Type 1: What are examples of "Time" being changed on a independent level?
    • Type 2: What are example of "Time" being changed on a dependent level?
    • Type 3: What are example of "Time" being changed on this level?
      • Seemingly N/A
• Soul
  • Soul Manipulation: Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others.
  • Manipulating the "Information" of "Soul"
    • Type 2: What are examples of changing the "Information" of Soul?
  • Manipulating the "Concept" of "Soul"
    • Type 1: What are examples of "Soul" being changed on a independent level?
    • Type 2: What are example of "Soul" being changed on a dependent level?
    • Type 3: What are example of "Soul" being changed on this level?

Your input is appreciated.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Permission granted by @Firestorm808
The point of this comment is to clarify a difference between Information and Concept manipulation before continuing. (Short version)

Information Manipulation on a Fundamental level seems to get tricky when people propose that information is conceptual and that changing any information would be changing an abstract concept.

To get started, these abilities can overlap, but dosen't instantly grant the other, to explain this better let's look att the defiention for both.

Concept manipulation.
It's something abstract that decides that "X" is actually "X" and not "Y". This can be both on a small scale and a larger scale, and possibly even the entire cosmology. Something worth noting is that this ability doesn't require any "Unique" fundamental aspect, and therefore are common across verses.

Information Manipulation (Type 2)
This is something that requires information or data to exist as a fundamental aspect of the verse. It is given when a user is capable of manipulating this fundamental information. Due to this, the ability requires a specific fundamental aspect to exist (Kinda like plot manipulation requires plot as a fundamental aspect), it is much rarer than Concept, and mainly exists in "game cosmology" where the world is made out of data, or other speciifc cases such as "tensura" Where everything is made out of information.
Shortly explained, fundamental information that decides "X" is "X" and not "Y"

So yeah, the definitions do overlap, but so does a large majority of the Metaphysical aspect, since their entire purpose is deciding "X" is "X" or "X" "does/mean"

Using a Common Examples:

• Time
  • Time Manipulation: Time Manipulation (sometimes called Chronokinesis) is the ability to control time itself. Examples include time travel, Precognition, slowing down time, speeding up time, etc.
  • Manipulating the "Information" of "Time"
    • Type 2: What are examples of changing the "Information" of Time?
  • Manipulating the "Concept" of "Time"
    • Type 1: What are examples of "Time" being changed on a independent level?
    • Type 2: What are example of "Time" being changed on a dependent level?
    • Type 3: What are example of "Time" being changed on this level?

Now this example is a common one, but still not really that good.

For example, I don't think time can even qualify as a Type 3 Concept. (Possibly if it was an ability that affected a single person?)
Now, if it were Type 2 or Type 1, it would mostly depenent on how the verse treats it. It would be Type 2 if Time for the verse separates for each world and is linked to the spatial part of it.
It would be Type 1 if it were either on a larger scale than a single universe, independent from it, or existed on a higher "plane"
So to simplify, the Concept manipulation Type depends solely on the concept (Type) it manipulates in the first place.

Also, I don't think this qualifies for IM 2, for reasons mentioned above, since it would require time itself to be decided by information/data.

 

[FinePoint]

Both are essentially abstracts which govern reality, so overlap is expected.
Concepts are generally vague and implicit, information is generally specific and explicit.

Type 2 Information which dictates time would contain not only a definition of time in general, but also the specifics of every instance of time it dictates.

A concept which dictates time would probably only contain a set of rules and qualifiers for what time is, but itself doesn't need to describe every individual instance which participates in it.

Consequently, generally, changing the concept of time would affect all time everywhere, while manipulating some information which describes time would allow you to make specific changes to specific parts of specific timelines.

Where these things lie in relation to each other entirely depends. One could rely on the other in any direction at the discretion of the verse.

 

[Deonment]

Got perms from @Firestorm808 to comment on this thread
I disagree with how both concepts and information are presented on this thread, in particular treating them both as just different flavours of "defines what X is"
To elaborate, a concept (in this case a universal), defines what a given quality or particular is, such as fire, gravity, time or what have you, that's correct.
That does not hold true for information, or how information is typically defined (at least both in irl physics and the things that i've read), information affects how a quality is expressed, such as how hot, massive or old something is.
To use an example, the concept of mass defines what exactly mass is, and every particle has mass, information then defines how massive that particle is, making it 1kg or 50kg, altering the information of that particle or the information of all particles will not change what mass is, it will simply change what mass those particles have, nor will changing the concept of mass change the information expressing what mass is, it will simply make what it expresses different. They fill different ontological niches
To answer the OP's questions

Time

• Time Manipulation: Time Manipulation (sometimes called Chronokinesis) is the ability to control time itself. Examples include time travel, Precognition, slowing down time, speeding up time, etc.
• Manipulating the "Information" of "Time"
  • Type 2: What are examples of changing the "Information" of Time?
• Manipulating the "Concept" of "Time"
  • Type 1: What are examples of "Time" being changed on a independent level?
  • Type 2: What are example of "Time" being changed on a dependent level?
  • Type 3:What are example of "Time" being changed on this level?
    • Seemingly N/A

Manipulating the information of time would change the duration of a period, or perhaps the chain of events
Manipulating the universal concept of time would change what time is overall, manipulating the specific concept of time would change the time a specific body or person is experiencing (the issue with type 3 is that it's currently just an "other" type, not just for messing with a single particular's "version" of a concept)

Soul

• Soul Manipulation: Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others.
• Manipulating the "Information" of "Soul"
  • Type 2: What are examples of changing the "Information" of Soul?
• Manipulating the "Concept" of "Soul"
  • Type 1: What are examples of "Soul" being changed on a independent level?
  • Type 2: What are example of "Soul" being changed on a dependent level?
  • Type 3: What are example of "Soul" being changed on this level?

Depends on what the verse defines when it comes to info, but it could be anything from like the mind and memories to how long you have to live or whatever other specific stuff the verse has tied into the soul
Manipulating the universal of the soul would change what a soul is, what it does, etc, messing with the specific concept of soul would change how the soul functioned for a specific person, planet, race, or what have you

 

[Firestorm808]

Got perms from @Firestorm808 to comment on this thread
I disagree with how both concepts and information are presented on this thread, in particular treating them both as just different flavours of "defines what X is"
To elaborate, a concept (in this case a universal), defines what a given quality or particular is, such as fire, gravity, time or what have you, that's correct.
That does not hold true for information, or how information is typically defined (at least both in irl physics and the things that i've read), information affects how a quality is expressed, such as how hot, massive or old something is.
To use an example, the concept of mass defines what exactly mass is, and every particle has mass, information then defines how massive that particle is, making it 1kg or 50kg, altering the information of that particle or the information of all particles will not change what mass is, it will simply change what mass those particles have, nor will changing the concept of mass change the information expressing what mass is, it will simply make what it expresses different. They fill different ontological niches
To answer the OP's questions

Manipulating the information of time would change the duration of a period, or perhaps the chain of events
Manipulating the universal concept of time would change what time is overall, manipulating the specific concept of time would change the time a specific body or person is experiencing (the issue with type 3 is that it's currently just an "other" type, not just for messing with a single particular's "version" of a concept)

So, Fundamental Information would be "quantitative aspects" of reality whereas Concepts are "qualitative aspects" like quiddity in the other thread.

 

[Vietthai96]

So, Fundamental Information would be "quantitative aspects" of reality whereas Concepts are "qualitative aspects" like quiddity in the other thread.

No, not really, fundamental information can be qualitative and concepts can be quantitative, depending on how the verse portrays these things. For example Platonic Concepts is qualitative but Aristotelian Concepts is quantitative

 

[Firestorm808]

Aristotelian Concepts is quantitative

Can't say I'm familiar with this example concept being quantitative.

Google is telling me that this "includes the Four Causes (material, formal, efficient, and final), potentiality and actuality, the idea of eudaimonia (human flourishing) achieved through virtue ethics and the Golden Mean, hylomorphism (matter and form), and his philosophical system of logic, including the syllogism."

It sounds qualitative.

Quantitative: numerical measurements that are counted, measured, or expressed in numbers (e.g., age, height, sales figures).

Qualitative: qualities, characteristics, or experiences that are non-numerical (e.g., color, texture, opinions)

 

[Vietthai96]

ZZ

Nvm, forget what i said, i misunderstood your comment

Anyway concepts are metaphysical, so too fundamental information, metaphysical by its nature is qualitative

 

[Deonment]

Using my second comment perm from Firestorm

Nvm, forget what i said, i misunderstood your comment

Anyway concepts are metaphysical, so too fundamental information, metaphysical by its nature is qualitative

Yeah, that's true, but I wasn't exactly saying that
I was saying it's how the concept is expressed in terms of each particular, a fire is hot because of the concept of fire (and heat if that's a thing in that work), but the degree to which it is hot, how large it is, and if it's even a fire in the first place is determined by its information (which doesn't neccesilary have to be the "composition" type of information, it can be the "code" type of information and whatnot)

 

[DontTalkDT]

This sounds like looking for unambiguous lines where there are none. We have the metaphysical aspect page with its equalization and order of aspects rules for that reason.

 

[Firestorm808]

This sounds like looking for unambiguous lines where there are none. We have the metaphysical aspect page with its equalization and order of aspects rules for that reason.

To clarify, can Information Type 2 include "quiditty"/the definition of a concept?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Reality can be written in Java and your Object-class is essentially a concept.
Edit: So yes.

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[Hellformer]

Reality can be written in Java and your Object-class is essentially a concept.
Edit: So yes.

Permission granted by @Vietthai96
Does this case qualify for a concept?:
The Dominion Code is some sort of higher code which consists of multiple Meta-Nanites. Each Meta-Nanite contains a unique cypher, an encoded command that grants it complete control over a specific fundamental aspect of reality such as space, time, matter, antimatter, elementals, or mechanical, etc.

For example, the Meta-Nanite of Space holds a cypher that gives it total authority over space. The same principle applies to the other Meta-Nanites that govern the essential building blocks of the universe.

The Dominion Code acts as a master control nanite, programming and directing all other Meta-Nanites.

TLDR: I think this case works pretty similar to the example given by you, i.e. the Dominion Code is the object class over here and the cypher written within the meta nanites act as functions within the class.