Devil May Cry Discussion Thread 7

[Dzhindzholia]

Nero got stronger but I don't think he is that much above Vergil and Dante,he should be equal or slightly stronger than them.

They were exhausted when Nero came and slapped both.

 

[Silvervigilant]

I think Nero should be equal to both Dante and Vergil

They're all comparable to each other

 

[Dienomite22]

Yea, they are on comparable with Nero just slightly being stronger than both.

Awakened Dante had no little trouble against Urizen and post-Fruit Urizen, he was only challenged when Vergil came back.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

After Dante defeated Urizen, Vergil states that beating Dante as he is right now would be meaningless and tells him to heal his wounds.

When Nero interfered, Dante and Vergil where very much wearing out on each other which is why they said they were going to finish this. Nero is strong but agaisnt a fresh version of Vergil and Dante would be unlikely. Especially when Vergil said that he wont lose the next time.

 

[Silvervigilant]

I personally don't see anything that suggest the Nero is stronger than both

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

He's not honestly

 

[Silvervigilant]

I Agree

 

[Bats16]

@Bats16

Actually, there was a statement that Dante got buffed by the roots. The rest of your points is fine.

On a side note, a spin-off manga about V is being released.

Oh is there? Must have missed it.

 

[Dienomite22]

@TenshinG

You're right, forgot about the "heal your wounds" part of the scene.

 

[ZERO7772]

1. That's not Dante who grew sronger from the Qliphoth roots. It's Urizen.

2. Nero never blitzed Dante or Vergil.

3. He never knocks them out of their DT. They went back to their regular forms on their own. Nero had nothing to do with it.

4. As has been said about 10 times at this point, Dante and Vergil were clearly weakened from fighting each other prior to that point.

5. Using gameplay mechanics as a means to gauge strength has always been inaccurate and that doesn't change now. And if he had stomped him then Vergil wouldn't have even been able to fight anymore, which clearly wasn't the case.

Nero did blitz them in a way actually, the scenes same plays out by switching timeframe and Nero crossed all way from like middle of the tree to the very top in the same time frame Dante and Vergil charged at each other and Nero was already there before they clashed with each other.

And yes Dante was power up by the root.

The Nero boss fight is much easier than Dante but you can still lose if you play badly lol.

 

[ZERO7772]

Imo Nero scales easily above Dante and Vergil, but the argument of them not being at top condition is valid enough I guess.

Those three should be around each other.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

1. That's not Dante who grew sronger from the Qliphoth roots. It's Urizen.

2. Nero never blitzed Dante or Vergil.

3. He never knocks them out of their DT. They went back to their regular forms on their own. Nero had nothing to do with it.

4. As has been said about 10 times at this point, Dante and Vergil were clearly weakened from fighting each other prior to that point.

5. Using gameplay mechanics as a means to gauge strength has always been inaccurate and that doesn't change now. And if he had stomped him then Vergil wouldn't have even been able to fight anymore, which clearly wasn't the case.

1. As another user stated there is text that states Dante grew stronger from the roots.

2. Nero was far away from SDT Dante and SDT Vergil and they were literally withim arm's reach of eachother and mid-punch. DT Nero moved faster than they could punch and blew them both away.

3. I would argue against this (why would they exit their SDT when a mysterious person just stopped the both of them and they were mid-attack?) but for now I'll drop it.

4. Even if that were the case it's practically impossible to lose against Vergil (who even uses SDT in the fight IIRC) with Nero having constantly regenerating health, constantly regenerating DT and him being able to stagger Vergil and grapple him (even mid-flight) and deal huge amounts of damage. Vergil even stabs Nero and Nero completely blows it off with no damage taken and deals a big chunk of damage at Vergil.

5. Nero wasn't fighting to kill and the game mechanics all point to him stomping Vergil around. Vergil struggled to stand up whereas Nero was perfectly fine. You could argue 'Vergil was severely weakened because he fought Dante for a few minutes!' but, as I already said, DT Nero is depicted as overpowering SDT Vergil to the point that I would argue the fight was a stomp. DT Nero NOT scaling to or above SDT Vergil because 'Vergil was tired' is just plain silly due to this stomping.

Also after Nero beats Vergil he outright tells Dante and Vergil that they need to cut their crap and help save the city so it's VERY clear that Nero wasn't aiming to take Vergil out of commission.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Nothing points a stomp, Vergil even said that he can still fight, the fight is easier because Vergil was not at full power, even the game made this to avoid people saying that Nero stomps

Also, you keep talking and talking but the main argument still intact, Dante and Vergil ARE TIRED and by what we see in DMC3, when tired they are FAR, FAAAAR weaker than their peak

Just watch the cutscene where Arkham reveals himself

- He says that Vergil could reduce him to confetti in tip-top condition

- He explicit said that his plan was to tire Dante and Vergil

Now just think what happened:

Vergil in 100% can stomp Arkham, he literally said this

Vergil tired got stomped by Arkham EVEN ALONGSIDE DANTE, another person who can stomp Arkham in 100%

And what it takes them to tire ?

- They need to be In equal power - This happens in DMC5

- How many times they fight to tire ? - One, just like DMC5

Nothing that you say prove that Nero is stronger than them, he is fighting weaker versions of Dante and Vergil

- He stopped them - They were weakened, base or Majin

- He was faster - They were weakened, base or Majin

- But he stopped them in Majin - Weakened Majin; also Nero was in DT

- But he slapped Dante - A weakened, off guard and BASE Dante

And if getting slapped while off guard is really a super feat, Nero also got slapped by Dante and Vergil, but that doesn't prove nothing

 

[Silvervigilant]

Nothing points a stomp, Vergil even said that he can still fight, the fight is easier because Vergil was not at full power, even the game made this to avoid people saying that Nero stomps
Also, you keep talking and talking but the main argument still intact, Dante and Vergil ARE TIRED and by what we see in DMC3, when tired they are FAR, FAAAAR weaker than their peak

Just watch the cutscene where Arkham reveals himself

- He says that Vergil could reduce him to confetti in tip-top condition

- He explicit said that his plan was to tire Dante and Vergil

Now just think what happened:

Vergil in 100% can stomp Arkham, he literally said this

Vergil tired got stomped by Arkham EVEN ALONGSIDE DANTE, another person who can stomp Arkham in 100%

And what it takes them to tire ?

- They need to be In equal power - This happens in DMC5

- How many times they fight to tire ? - One, just like DMC5

Nothing that you say prove that Nero is stronger than them, he is fighting weaker versions of Dante and Vergil

- He stopped them - They were weakened, base or Majin

- He was faster - They were weakened, base or Majin

- But he stopped them in Majin - Weakened Majin; also Nero was in DT

- But he slapped Dante - A weakened, off guard and BASE Dante

And if getting slapped while off guard is really a super feat, Nero also got slapped by Dante and Vergil, but that doesn't prove nothing

Exactly

 

[CryoTheMayo]

"Nothing points a stomp, Vergil even said that he can still fight, the fight is easier because Vergil was not at full power, even the game made this to avoid people saying that Nero stomps"

The fight is easier because Nero is constantly regenerating his DT. Nero can shrug off DT Vergil's stabs with no damage taken.

"Also, you keep talking and talking but the main argument still intact, Dante and Vergil ARE TIRED and by what we see in DMC3, when tired they are FAR, FAAAAR weaker than their peak"

Nero was on death's door from fighting Urizen and was physically shown to be scarred. Dante had time to rest up and Vergil was at peak condition.

This was basically Dante and Vergil tired from fighting eachother and Nero having nearly died just an hour or two beforehand. So I think claiming Nero would be weakened is warranted.

"And if getting slapped while off guard is really a super feat, Nero also got slapped by Dante and Vergil, but that doesn't prove nothing"

Nero with his arms slapped Dante so hard that Dante was visibly in pain. Base Vergil and Base Dante knocked a Base Nero away with Nero not even being damaged, only knocked away.

I'm not going to argue for hours on end over whether or not DT Nero scales above SDT Dante and Vergil but I don't see why he doesn't scale above DT Vergil. Considering Dante and Vergil both acknowledge that Nero beat Vergil and Vergil actively used DT in his fight.

You could argue that maybe Nero was completely regenerated from unlocking his DT and that's the only argument I see for Nero not scaling above DT Vergil. Even then the game mechanics and animations make it clear that Nero was heavily overpowering DT Vergil so claiming that Nero would be akin to or above a peak DT Vergil isn't outlandish.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Nobody mind if I go off the topic of who's strongest between Dante, Nero and Vergil. Where do we stand feat wise for the gang? Is qliphoth beinb. Cut down being calced, is the urizen statment being accepted, is someone gonna calculate Dante and V dodging Lightnint of cavalier for a potential speed upgrade aside from just mach 1200?

 

[Dienomite22]

Another speed feat that could be calc'd is when Dante casually blocks Griffon's lightning.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Jesterofgames

The Fruit > Qliphoth so all the damage that the Qliphoth caused or the AP due to the size of the Qliphoth should scale to the everyone on the same level or superior to post-Fruit Urizen.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Alright so how much damage did it cause?

 

[Dienomite22]

Dunno, at the absolute minimum city wide damage but the sheer size and the fact that a larger portion of it is underground and in the Demon World implies it could be much higher.

 

[CinCameron20]

Continuing from the discussion in the previous thread, Base Dante should not be above Urizen. I don't care what the cutscene showed. They made it abundantly clear that Dante needed his Sin DT to overpower normal Urizen. How in the world would he go from needing Sin DT to defeat a normal Urizen to being able to defeat a fruit amped Urizen in base? That's completely nonsensical. Dante and Vergil only surpass fruit Urizen when using their Sin DT.

No, they did not. It was shown that SDT Dante was standing off against Urizen. Yes, this is an implication that they fought w/ Dante using SDT, but it was shown to be easy for Dante considering his condition and mannerism in the scene immediately after the first encounter.

In the second, there's no implication he used SDT, and he is seen CASUALLY BLOCKING attacks from amp'd Urizen in the cutscene, and sliced right through him NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE.

Dante Base > Amp'd Urizen

SDT Dante >>> Base Urizen (No clear value for either how strong the amp for SDT is, or the sword. Not to mention we don't even know if Urizen got a substantial power boost from the fruit in the first place.)

The way it is, Base Dante is STRONGLY implied to be > Amp'd Urizen, if even by a slight margin.

@Dienomite - KE also has to be taken into account for the tree moving. The destruction to the city is probably only city-level tier, maybe touching mountain-level depending how deep the tree goes before the bottom is displayed in the Demon World. The thing's branches rotated around 90 degrees each, the tree itself less, but it all happened within about 15 seconds or less. Easily High 7-A+ at a low end size scaling (assuming it's below the stratosphere), but 6-C or even higher when taking into account you'd have to be nearing 20km above ground to begin seeing stars in the middle of day, and they were above a dense sheet of cloud (Mission 18) that generally implies they are in the Stratosphere.

Is someone making a calculation, or should I make an attempt?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Pretty sure it's strongly implied that Base Vergil is already stronger than FP Urizen so Base Dante scaling above FP Urizen isn't that crazy considering Dante and Vergil were depicted as complete equals in their final battle just an hour or two afterwards.

 

[ZERO7772]

The idea of Dante defeating FP Urizen in base just after seeing he needed SDT to fight base Urizen really doesn't sit well tbh. It's like saying Jiren fought on par with UI Goku, then power up, and lose to SSB Goku. It just doesn't make sense.

We have no way of comparing Base Vergil to FP Urizen, all we can say is SDT Vergil is stronger than Urizen, nothing more.

 

[Bats16]

Nothing points a stomp, Vergil even said that he can still fight, the fight is easier because Vergil was not at full power, even the game made this to avoid people saying that Nero stomps
Also, you keep talking and talking but the main argument still intact, Dante and Vergil ARE TIRED and by what we see in DMC3, when tired they are FAR, FAAAAR weaker than their peak

Just watch the cutscene where Arkham reveals himself

- He says that Vergil could reduce him to confetti in tip-top condition

- He explicit said that his plan was to tire Dante and Vergil

Now just think what happened:

Vergil in 100% can stomp Arkham, he literally said this

Vergil tired got stomped by Arkham EVEN ALONGSIDE DANTE, another person who can stomp Arkham in 100%

And what it takes them to tire ?

- They need to be In equal power - This happens in DMC5

- How many times they fight to tire ? - One, just like DMC5

Nothing that you say prove that Nero is stronger than them, he is fighting weaker versions of Dante and Vergil

- He stopped them - They were weakened, base or Majin

- He was faster - They were weakened, base or Majin

- But he stopped them in Majin - Weakened Majin; also Nero was in DT

- But he slapped Dante - A weakened, off guard and BASE Dante

And if getting slapped while off guard is really a super feat, Nero also got slapped by Dante and Vergil, but that doesn't prove nothing

100% this. Not once does Nero ever overpower Dante or Vergil when the two are in perfect condition. Nero literally sat there doing nothing the minute Vergil was revived and then later unlocked his DT, which means he certainly shouldn't have been tired whereas both Dante and Vergil just fought each other and it's been shown numerous times that such a fight weakens them considerably.

 

[Jelome1989]

@Zero

Dante did power up as well from the Qlipoth roots during that 1 month period. It was stated in his profile. Also he's using Devil Sword Dante to cut through Urizen red barrier thingy, where everybody else failed to get past it. Maybe that's the difference this time? Who knows how powerful Devil Sword Dante is?

Also I think at this point we need to set aside 'reasonableness'. I myself disagree with this, but what is shown is shown. I'll just take it as PIS or whatever. For example, Nero magically manages to fight on par Sin DT Vergil and Dante, with little to no effort transforming to his final form as compared to Dante and Vergil's - needing some pretty crazy sacrifices and buffs (Dante absorbing Devil Sword Sparda and Qlipoth roots - Vergil also with the Qlipoth roots and then the fruit) to achieve their final form. It can be argued that Nero achieves full power because he has something to protect, I get it he's the MC and he's built up for this all the way from DMC4, but yeah, doesn't sit well too at least imo.

But what is shown is shown. I agree with Cin on this one, it is shown that base Dante beats Post Fruit Urizen.

 

[Bats16]

I still contest that Base Dante is stronger than post fruit Urizen. It makes no sense narratively speaking. Dante would've never needed his SDT to beat base Urizen if he was capable of beating post fruit Urizen in base.

 

[ZERO7772]

@Looks like we disagree on Nero and Agree on Urizen.

Yeah, it really makes no sense for base Urizen to fight SDT Dante and THEN power up and THEN lost to base Dante. Cutscenes means nothing, Vergil never transform to SDT in a cutscene in Nero fight, yet he's in SDT for like 70% of the fight when you actually get to fight him

 

[Ogbunabali]

Dante clearly struggled a bit when fighting Urizen. Vergil himself said that he could easily defeat Dante like this and told him to heal his wounds.

 

[Jelome1989]

It absolutely does not make sense narratively speaking. Dante never would have needed SDT, but base Dante beats Urizen and that is what is shown (it can be argued that base Dante powered up from absorbing Devil Sword Sparda and Qlipoth roots, but then again he would never have needed SDT). I also don't agree with some of the cutscenes. In fact, this is my only beef with DMC5, at least in the last half.

 

[ZERO7772]

^Also this, Vergil mocked Dante for being wounded and not at full power after his battle with Urizen. Clearly FP Urizen was fighting on equal foot with SDT otherwise this statment won't make any sense.

Vergil is above Urizen, but he's not world above him.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Bats Again, no scaling can be argued for how exactly strong Amp'd Urizen is compared to his normal state, and the same for SDT Dante and his base.

1st round, SDT seemingly wipes the floor with normal Urizen.

2nd round, Base Dante is shown fighting and finishing Amp'd Urizen. I don't know why you guys are denying it when it's being displayed in the cutscene. It's clear as day Base Dante beat Urizen, and even if he used SDT in the fight (no support for this argument at all), he still cut through Urizen's body with his base form twice and was blocking attacks.

@Zero - Really? Arguing Gameplay > Cutscenes? Vergil only activates his SDT upon prompting a Devil Bringer grab on him or near defeat. Difficulty settings also affect when he uses SDT. That fight is clearly implied Base Nero vs Vergil. For example, I can fight Vergil right now on Mission 20 and make sure he NEVER activates Devil Trigger, especially on Human and Devil Hunter difficulty.

 

[Jelome1989]

@Zero ^But then after a short while, Dante shows up again and fights on par with Vergil? I did not recall Dante getting healed or getting some rest after that

 

[Jelome1989]

I think the only way to reconcile this is that Dante's got some massive powerups from absorbing Devil Sword Sparda way more than the power up of Urizen from eating the fruit

Also I think Devil Sword Dante is underestimated here, in the cutscenes, it is the arms used to beat Urizen.

 

[Bats16]

Dante being weakened from his fight with Urizen is a good point @Ogbunabali brought up. If Dante could beat post fruit Urizen in base then he certainly wouldn't have been weakened after the fight. Him being weakened to the point that Vergil could easily overpower him suggests Dante had a significant struggle on his hands against Urizen. So yea, that makes me even less inclined to believe base Dante could beat him.

 

[Bats16]

@Zero
^But then after a short while, Dante shows up again and fights on par with Vergil? I did not recall Dante getting healed or getting some rest after that

I think it's supposed to be implied that Dante managed to recover in that short time. I mean Vergil did easily overpower him when he was weak yet the two were completely equal in their next fight.

I think the only way to reconcile this is that Dante's got some massive powerups from absorbing Devil Sword Sparda way more than the power up of Urizen from eating the fruit
Also I think Devil Sword Dante is underestimated here, in the cutscenes, it is the arms used to beat Urizen.

But then why would he bother using SDT? If he could truly beat post fruit Urizen in base then he shouldn't have ever felt the need to use SDT against base Urizen. And we know Dante doesn't use his most powerful forms unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Jelome1989]

In that short while though, Dante fought Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare.

Mission 17 - Battle with Urizen, then mocked by Vergil

Mission 18 - Boss battle with Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare

Mission 19 - Final battle with Vergil

If that equates to healing then I don't know anymore. My point is narrative is definitely off

But then why would he bother using SDT? If he could truly beat post fruit Urizen in base then he shouldn't have ever felt the need to use SDT against base Urizen. And we know Dante doesn't use his most powerful forms unless it's absolutely necessary.

Yeah, I think you missed my earlier post:
It absolutely does not make sense narratively speaking. Dante never would have needed SDT, but base Dante beats Urizen and that is what is shown (it can be argued that base Dante powered up from absorbing Devil Sword Sparda and Qlipoth roots, but then again he would never have needed SDT). I also don't agree with some of the cutscenes. In fact, this is my only beef with DMC5, at least in the last half.

 

[Bats16]

In that short while though, Dante fought Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare.
Mission 17 - Battle with Urizen, then mocked by Vergil

Mission 18 - Boss battle with Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare

Mission 19 - Final battle with Vergil

If that equates to healing then I don't know anymore. My point is narrative is definitely off


But then why would he bother using SDT? If he could truly beat post fruit Urizen in base then he shouldn't have ever felt the need to use SDT against base Urizen. And we know Dante doesn't use his most powerful forms unless it's absolutely necessary.

Yeah, I think you missed my earlier post:
It absolutely does not make sense narratively speaking. Dante never would have needed SDT, but base Dante beats Urizen and that is what is shown (it can be argued that base Dante powered up from absorbing Devil Sword Sparda and Qlipoth roots, but then again he would never have needed SDT). I also don't agree with some of the cutscenes. In fact, this is my only beef with DMC5, at least in the last half.
Well Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare aren't exactly enough to make Dante sweat, but I can definitely see why you think the narrative is a bit off with this.

Oh yea, I didn't see that post.

 

[ZERO7772]

@Cin Yeah? Some of those cutscene doesn't even make sense, going by a cutscene, Second battle Nero would stomp Pre-Sin DT Dante because he actually lands a cut and makes Urizen get off his chair while Dante was sleeping for a whole month from 2 punches. You are literally taking some cutscenes here over the narrative of the story.

And yes, Gameplay can be used as an argument and if the battle was meant for only Base Nero vs Base Vergil they wouldn't make him transform to SDT. There is even a line for when Nero active DT mid-battle and when Vergil use copies of himself.

Saying the whole fight was just base Vergil vs Nero because Muh cutscenes didn't show it is a shallow argument at best. Vergil can trasnform to SDT in battle, your point is moot.

@Jelome Dante is a saiyan, he regains stamina by fighting and being beat up!

 

[Authorofall]

DT awakening comes from within and the implication given to us is that everything about the one to which it's awakened to increases, including their base form. Let's use DMC3 as a reference point; prior to Dante awakening the Devil within, he was actually no match for Vergil but after awakening DT, his base took a significant shift in power; This is immediately represented by his getting up, punching the statue impressively and his subsequent amazement at his new found power as he descends the tower like a meteor.


Nero is NOT human and he's not a newbie. If you're looking at his self prior to his DT awakening with the lense that he's actually a newbie, you will never be able to reasonably explain how he's able to take on something like Gilgamesh or the other ridiculous bosses. The Nero that fought Urizen the first time is notably weaker than the Nero that fought him the second. The Nero that fought him the second time actually broke through his guard and drew blood, and actually irritated Urizen enough to get up to fight him. Beginning DMC5 Dante couldn't do diddly-squat, so evidently [2nd fight Nero] > [DT Beginning Dante] >>> other previous Demon Lords.

Nero had gotten MAD gains.

 

[Jelome1989]

The Nero that fought Urizen the first time is notably weaker than the Nero that fought him the second. The Nero that fought him the second time actually broke through his guard and drew blood, and actually irritated Urizen enough to get up to fight him.

This is my beef with the narrative. How did Nero get these MAD gains? This part is not clearly explained. We can speculate, but that's about it. Dante during this 1 month gap, rested the whole time while getting powered up by the Qlipoth roots. Ultimately, he absorbed both Rebellion and Sparda to gain Sin DT. Vergil also got powered up by the Qlipoth tree, ate the fruit and absorbed Yamato in the process to gain his own Sin DT. Meanwhile Nero, just made a call to Kyrie and then achieves DT on a level on par with Sin DT Dante and Vergil.

I don't mind Nero getting overpowered, but my beef is that the way it's shown is it seems to brush aside Dante and Vergil's efforts and sacrifices, imo. But I guess that's just DMC logic. You want to protect = more human = more powerful