Demon Slayer Mark

[Mori]

That's not how the Compass works; it's not based on power, it's based on the enemy's fighting spirit. If Akaza had reactive evolution of that level, he should be at least equal to Kokushibou in power, having fought him. Akaza, on the other hand, holds his own against weaker opponents, showing greater consistency not only in his own matches but even in his matches from Upper Moon 2 and 1.

I understand that it is based on Fighting spirit, however we have seen that the characters with outstanding or "very high" fighting spirits are always very powerful, with an exception of the See through world and Selfless State Users. That was the whole point of why Akaza had to go after Tanjiro in Mugen train to eliminate him because he tagged him as weak but Rengoku as Strong. Akaza himself stated ICA that his compass is constructed to sense that shift and even if Tanjiro got stronger he would adjust. Adding Kokushibo as a comparison there doesn't do much as STW users in themes are outside of that equation. That's like the whole level Akaza was making a fuss about reaching. It would just be redundant if he was able to match that level with his own technique. Why then would he want or need it so bad?

 

[Mori]

Go watch the Mugen Train Movie. His entire character in a fight is to hold back and enjoy a fight. Rengoku's fight was the most embarassing because Akaza didn't really fo anything in that fight and Rengoku still got manhandled.

I mean... That's one way to look at it. Has anyone also considered the possibility that his personality is just fighting the strongest to get stronger himself and like he actually got stronger over time due to the amount of people he had defeated and eaten, because demons are designed like that? I mean, it's food for thought, you can marinate around it and tell me what you think.

 

[Mori]

It has nothing to do with him getting tired. Legit the moment Akaza saw all of Giyu's techniques, he immediately broke Giyu's sword, baffling him on how strong Akaza was, and he immediately went for the kill, something Giyu couldn't react to. Actually, he actually made his own "opening" to break the sword. Giyu didn't even think it was even possible for the sword to break during a down swing, let alone from the side.

Yeah, this doesn't disprove my position here. Like someone pointed out before, Akaza have seen the breathing techniques before. The only thing special about it this time was the 11th form but that aside. Giyu can be shocked in that instance. I mean, his sword literally broke. I don't know why you interpretation of that was that it shouldn't be possible. And yeah, him making his own opening to be able to break the sword is the whole reason why I'm of the position that Giyu did get weaker, sloppier or tired. Following your previous argument, Akaza could have done that at any point in time because he was "That strong", why didn't he?

 

[Mori]

To be clear, I'm disagreeing with the Downgrade or ... Whatever this was supposed to be. I'm just clarifying some argumentative stances.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

I understand that it is based on Fighting spirit, however we have seen that the characters with outstanding or "very high" fighting spirits are always very powerful, with an exception of the See through world and Selfless State Users. That was the whole point of why Akaza had to go after Tanjiro in Mugen train to eliminate him because he tagged him as weak but Rengoku as Strong. Akaza himself stated ICA that his compass is constructed to sense that shift and even if Tanjiro got stronger he would adjust. Adding Kokushibo as a comparison there doesn't do much as STW users in themes are outside of that equation. That's like the whole level Akaza was making a fuss about reaching. It would just be redundant if he was able to match that level with his own technique. Why then would he want or need it so bad?

Kokushibou doesn't possess the altruistic/selfless state. Since he has fighting spirit, following that logic, Akaza should be on par with him, including at the Meeting of the Upper Moons.

As for fighting spirit being a measure of strength, that's more complicated. Strong characters are shown to have stronger fighting spirit, but Tanjiro and Yoriichi aren't weakened by a lack of fighting spirit.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Barring the arguments from the OP for a second, I would still agree to adjust, if not remove the multiplier because the main justification comes from this blog from this CRT which have a few problems in my book.


First off, why would "keta chigai" here mean "order of magnitude" at its most accurate level, especially when the blog literally concedes that certain translations that wouldn't mean a 10x amp would be valid in the first place? Keta Chigai has numerous meanings (in a different league, unbelievable, incomparable, unimaginable)
which would all fit the intent of the databook without forcing a 10x jump in overall statistics and as such, the blog would assume it would mean the numerical amp without actually explaining why. Thus, the claim that "keta chigai would be the most accurate to mean order of magnitude" was never actually proven here.

Also, claiming the databook doesn't explicitly state which order of magnitude it meant would be claiming it said "order of magnitude" in the first place and not something like "extraordinary fighting abilities" like the official translation used; again, the blog never proved that the former was the case, just claimed "it's the most accurate" without backing for it. It's more likely that the reason it didn't specify which order of magnitude it was is because there is likely no order of magnitude to be stated in the first place. The statement can be equally interpretted to mean something that grants it an unquantifiable amp with this line of reasoning alone and claiming it to be a 10x needs to be further justified.


Not only is this just blatant whataboutism due to the contexts being different (since the narratives are different), just because Keta Chigai was used for those verses and was accepted, that doesn't mean they are immune to scrutiny and honestly, if the same line of reasoning was used for these verses, their examples should get nuked as well. Just because one verse does something with a certain kanji, that doesn't mean another verse using the same kanji is valid; two wrongs don't make a right.


None of these examples actually deduce that the 10x amp is the one that has to be the case, all of these examples can be equally valid for an unquantifiable amp.

In short, I agree with the premise of the thread, but it's unrelated to OPs arguments for it.

I’m not by any means an expert on Japanese so correct me if I’m wrong, but every since source I look at for a translation of “桁違い” gives either “order of magnitude” or “digit difference” as its foremost direct literal translation.

Is there some context based on adjacent characters that changes the meaning, or some other context I’m missing here?

• Tanoshii Japanese: https://www.tanoshiijapanese.com/dictionary/entry_details.cfm?entry_id=65992
• Japan Direct: https://www.japandict.com/桁違い#entry-1686140
• Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/?hl=en-ca&sl=auto&tl=en&text=桁違い&op=translate
• Word Hippo: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/4a9d82efc103baee55af04ec16b6c6423944dfc1.html
• Reverso: https://context.reverso.net/翻訳/日本語-英語/桁違い
• RomajiDesu: https://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-桁違い.html
• Bab.la: https://en.bab.la/dictionary/japanese-english/桁違い
• Nihongo Master: https://www.nihongomaster.com/japanese/dictionary/word/65808/ketachigai-桁違い-けたちがい

If you want to go with secondary definitions, sure you will find some contexts where it doesn’t mean a literal difference in order of magnitude but instead something more colloquial like “incomparable”. But the same is true of the word in english. But that is not its most direct or common usage for the chosen verbiage. And such would not be an obstacle for using it as a multiplier in english if the context isn’t clearly hyperbolic or overly colloquial in a qualitative rather than quantitative sense.

Like is there any actual difference in context for the same multiplier being accepted in those other verses? Because if I just use the direct english translation of the databook page, I see no unique issue based on the chosen verbiage for the associated narrative. Especially considering the fact that if they wanted to make a qualitative statement instead of a quantitative one, there are more direct/appropriate words to use, such as “段違い”.

Just gonna point out. A translation staff did confirm the translation of Order of Magnitude. The catch to use the translation confirmed by staff was to prove the mark is a stomp amp boost.

This is why the first reply to the thread was like FinePoint saying he thinks 10x is consistent because he watched the series and saw the sheer difference between marked slayers and unmarked slayers

The prime example of this is how a Base Muichiro goes from being manhandled by a casual Gyokko who was mocking Muichiro to Marked Muichiro casually perception blitzing statuing a transformed full power Gyokko. Gyokko didn’t even realize Muichiro decapitated him until his head was on the ground. Keep in mind Muichiro is very poisoned with dozens of needles in his body. The mark is indeed a stomp amp.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Barring the arguments from the OP for a second, I would still agree to adjust, if not remove the multiplier because the main justification comes from this blog from this CRT which have a few problems in my book.


First off, why would "keta chigai" here mean "order of magnitude" at its most accurate level, especially when the blog literally concedes that certain translations that wouldn't mean a 10x amp would be valid in the first place? Keta Chigai has numerous meanings (in a different league, unbelievable, incomparable, unimaginable)
which would all fit the intent of the databook without forcing a 10x jump in overall statistics and as such, the blog would assume it would mean the numerical amp without actually explaining why. Thus, the claim that "keta chigai would be the most accurate to mean order of magnitude" was never actually proven here.

Also, claiming the databook doesn't explicitly state which order of magnitude it meant would be claiming it said "order of magnitude" in the first place and not something like "extraordinary fighting abilities" like the official translation used; again, the blog never proved that the former was the case, just claimed "it's the most accurate" without backing for it. It's more likely that the reason it didn't specify which order of magnitude it was is because there is likely no order of magnitude to be stated in the first place. The statement can be equally interpretted to mean something that grants it an unquantifiable amp with this line of reasoning alone and claiming it to be a 10x needs to be further justified.


Not only is this just blatant whataboutism due to the contexts being different (since the narratives are different), just because Keta Chigai was used for those verses and was accepted, that doesn't mean they are immune to scrutiny and honestly, if the same line of reasoning was used for these verses, their examples should get nuked as well. Just because one verse does something with a certain kanji, that doesn't mean another verse using the same kanji is valid; two wrongs don't make a right.


None of these examples actually deduce that the 10x amp is the one that has to be the case, all of these examples can be equally valid for an unquantifiable amp.

In short, I agree with the premise of the thread, but it's unrelated to OPs arguments for it.

Basically, the context and justification you require are in the consistency and caveats sections.

The point is precisely that Gotouge could have used many other terms, but used this one to express the power of the DSM. This, along with the surrounding context—whether it's the feats that demonstrate absurd differences, or the work with Tanjiro's quotes explicitly stating that it's an absurd increase—supports the use of the minimum value of 10x.

With the proper context, this expression can indeed mean at least an order of magnitude, and the manga/anime gives us that context. Even though a specific order of magnitude (10, 100, or 1000) isn't directly stated in the fanbook itself (although the number 100 does exist in the manga, it is treated as a supporting hyperbole.).

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Tanjiro was also unable to unable to cut Gyutaro’s neck. The same Gyutaro who was poisoned, weakened, and crippled to the ground with the clearest opening ever for a decapitation (straight up downswing slash). The moment Tanjiro gained a mark, he was capable of decapitating a fully recovered Gyutaro.

For more context, wisteria poisoning weakens their durability and he still can’t damage the neck.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Tanjiro was also unable to unable to cut Gyutaro’s neck. The same Gyutaro who was poisoned, weakened, and crippled to the ground with the clearest opening ever for a decapitation (straight up downswing slash). The moment Tanjiro gained a mark, he was capable of decapitating a fully recovered Gyutaro.

For more context, wisteria poisoning weakens their durability and he still can’t damage the neck.

I find it incredible that Tanjiro became so strong with DSM that Gyutaro couldn't even remove the scythe from his chin.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I find it incredible that Tanjiro became so strong with DSM that Gyutaro couldn't even remove the scythe from his chin.

Yeah it’s a narrative fact that the Mark IS a stomp amp in series.

This leads back to Akaza. You are given a red or blue pill. Either Akaza’s simply holding back because he always does this in character to enjoy a fight or Akaza possesses really good accelerated development reactive evolution

 

[Saqphire]

I’m not by any means an expert on Japanese so correct me if I’m wrong, but every since source I look at for a translation of “桁違い” gives either “order of magnitude” or “digit difference” as its foremost direct literal translation.

Yeah, that's the literal translation of the term, but it being the direct and literal word-for-word, bar-for-bar translation doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct translation; the latter of which is what the blog is claiming. What I am saying is that nothing in the blog has actually deduced that it has to mean order of magnitude here (and by result, justifying the claim that's presented). Without that justification, there's effectively nothing that actually proves the databook said that instead of what the official translation said (or other translations).

The last part matters because the burden of proof is on yall to actually justify it being a 10x amp. This doesn't prove that.

If you want to go with secondary definitions, sure you will find some contexts where it doesn’t mean a literal difference in order of magnitude but instead something more colloquial like “incomparable”. But the same is true of the word in english. But that is not its most direct or common usage for the chosen verbiage. And such would not be an obstacle for using it as a multiplier in english if the context isn’t clearly hyperbolic or overly colloquial in a qualitative rather than quantitative sense.

Honestly the statement does seem extremely hyperbolic regardless given how it's presented. But let's say it isn't, right? Just because it's the most used context for that word, and thus the primary definition, that doesn't mean that it's usage proves the meaning here, the context does. And right now, all I'm seeing is context that doesn't necessarily prove this.

Like, I would've granted an amp like this if it said directly that it was 10x, or a statement in the manga corroborating that with similar stuff, as that removes the ambiguity. Hell, I would've granted it if it said 10x horsepower or something but that's not the case here. Since the ambiguity still remains, there's not a solid enough basis to be had here, I'm sorry.

Like is there any actual difference in context for the same multiplier being accepted in those other verses? Because if I just use the direct english translation of the databook page, I see no unique issue based on the chosen verbiage for the associated narrative. Especially considering the fact that if they wanted to make a qualitative statement instead of a quantitative one, there are more direct/appropriate words to use, such as “段違い”.

Keta Chigai, with it's other translations, is quantitative in itself and not exclusively qualitative. That's my whole point really; there's nothing that justifies it being a qualitative amp except for assumptions with little to no basis. And I don't actually wanna bother with arguing how Naruto/Bleach's context in their stories grants it that; hencewhy I said that if they used this same line of reasoning, it should be axed for them too.

A mere kanji with several different meanings that are all equally valid (one of which was already said to be so in the blog, once again) doesn't actually prove a claim here.

Just gonna point out. A translation staff did confirm the translation of Order of Magnitude. The catch to use the translation confirmed by staff was to prove the mark is a stomp amp boost.

This is why the first reply to the thread was like FinePoint saying he thinks 10x is consistent because he watched the series and saw the sheer difference between marked slayers and unmarked slayers

Translation staff confirming a translation =/= it's the irrefutable correct one. Tons of statements translated by the translation team have been refuted so this doesn't actually mean much. Same thing goes with FinePoint agreeing with it, their agreements doesn't actually prove what I wanted you to prove here.

The prime example of this is how a Base Muichiro goes from being manhandled by a casual Gyokko who was mocking Muichiro and Muichiro stating Gyokko’s speed was on an entirely different dimension alongside constantly getting out speed by him to Marked Muichiro casually perception blitzing statuing a transformed full power Gyokko. Gyokko didn’t even realize Muichiro decapitated him until his head was on the ground. Keep in mind Muichiro is very poisoned with dozens of needles in his body. The mark is indeed a stomp amp.

It can be a stomp amp given that context, that's fine and was never something that was refuted by me personally. However, that being the case doesn't mean it's a 10x one. The translation saying something like "A slayer's combat ability becomes out of one's league" (paraphrasing) is an equally valid translation that would grant it being a stomp amp, but not a 10x one. The number requires more evidence than this.

Basically, the context and justification you require are in the consistency and caveats sections.


The point is precisely that Gotouge could have used many other terms, but used this one to express the power of the DSM. This, along with the surrounding context—whether it's the feats that demonstrate absurd differences, or the work with Tanjiro's quotes explicitly stating that it's an absurd increase—supports the use of the minimum value of 10x.

It isn't, I checked. The consistency section doesn't actually prove it has to be an order of magnitude of a stat difference and the caveat section has a pretty flawed reasoning, which I'll explain below to avoid repetition.

The point is precisely that Gotouge could have used many other terms, but used this one to express the power of the DSM. This, along with the surrounding context—whether it's the feats that demonstrate absurd differences, or the work with Tanjiro's quotes explicitly stating that it's an absurd increase—supports the use of the minimum value of 10x.

She could've used alot of terms to express a power amp, that's correct indeed. But just because she used this one specifically, that doesn't necessarily mean that Keta Chigai must mean 10x. A multiplier requires far more concrete evidence than this, the multiplier standards themselves dictate that.

With the proper context, this expression can indeed mean at least an order of magnitude, and the manga/anime gives us that context. Even though a specific order of magnitude (10, 100, or 1000) isn't directly stated in the fanbook itself (although the number 100 does exist in the manga, it is treated as a supporting hyperbole.).

Tanjiro hyperbolically claiming a 100x amp on a form he didn't even know existed doesn't necessarily add credence to Gotouge "meaning" to use the term to quantify the amp; that's still an assumption/conclusion from very incomplete information and doesn't actually fly here.

In fact, if yall are arguing that to be authorial intent, that fails because the number that is used in the databook and manga do not line up at all. Unless you guys would be arguing for a 100x multiplier using Keta Chigai; which would then fall under so many inverse problems and inconsistencies with the multiplier standards that it would get axed instantly; this is just a lite version of that scenario.

-
To me, this line of logic just seems like just a number to fall back on because it's a lowball and the kanji maybe would support it, which isn't a strong enough of a stance in my opinion. But hey, I'm just a blue name. Let's have staff weigh in on this.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I mean... That's one way to look at it. Has anyone also considered the possibility that his personality is just fighting the strongest to get stronger himself and like he actually got stronger over time due to the amount of people he had defeated and eaten, because demons are designed like that? I mean, it's food for thought, you can marinate around it and tell me what you think.

Dont think this works since Rengoku was indeed the first strongest slayer he's fought is decades since the previous hashiras are canonically bums that even Base Daki could kill over a dozen of them. Keep in mind the weakest current gen Hashira Tengen can no diff her in her awakened state,

I dont think he got stronger since Mugen Train since it wasn't implied in the story. If he did then its probably not alot.

We dont know how much stronger a demon eating humans get so in quantifiable. Douma did say if Akaza eats women then he'd be able to dethrone himself as Upper Moon 2 so theres that.

Theres also this

Yeah, this doesn't disprove my position here. Like someone pointed out before, Akaza have seen the breathing techniques before. The only thing special about it this time was the 11th form but that aside.

This is Akaza's own words dude

He was specifically waiting for Giyu to use his entire arsenal on Akaza.

I don't know why you interpretation of that was that it shouldn't be possible.

Because the sword wasn't supposed to break doing that. The sword only breaks in canon if the user's technique isn't good. He was surprised and shocked to see Akaza is so strong that he did something that shouldn't be possible in his eyes.

andd yeah, him making his own opening to be able to break the sword is the whole reason why I'm of the position that Giyu did get weaker, sloppier or tired.

Hes made his own opening from nothing. He didnt even exploit an opening. The narrative moment of this scene never implied the sword broke due to Giyu getting sloppier or weaker, the narrative moment is Akaza being this much stronger. Giyu's own words is that theres a power difference between him and Akaza.

The narrative of Akaza is that hes so unbelievable strong compared to himself and Tanjiro

Following your previous argument, Akaza could have done that at any point in time because he was "That strong", why didn't he?

Because he wanted to enjoy a fight. He wanted to see everything his opponent had. He was specifically waiting for Giyu to show Akaza everything he has before ending the fight

Rengoku shows his entire arsenal against Akaza. Akaza immediately donuts him.

Giyu shows his entire arsenal against Akaza


Akaza goes for the kill immediately.

It defeats the entire point of him enjoying the fight and letting his opponent use his entire arsenal if hes just going to break the sword immediately,

The only time he has never done this was against Tanjiro the moment he obtained a new state. The compass needle and his body were screaming at him to kill Tanjiro immediately due to him being a threat to his life. Keep in mind he has never saw Marked Giyu and Rengoku once as being a threat to his life. Only Tanjiro made him react this way, which led to him doing this

 

[Aytugsss]

This looks better. You should contact staff for evaluation (write in their profiles). And also write about it in CRT promotion thread

How can i write

And tell us why we cant


Because he got STRONGER from the time they fought. Why is this a HARD concept to grasp. Marked Muichiro was completely MANDHANDLED by the most casual Kokushibo there is and Muichiro HIMSELF acknowledges he was the most useless in that fight while Base Sanemi was boxing Kokushibo


Again, numerous context and different factors makes up for Akaza holding back (Literally watch Mugen Train to figure out how his character works)

Zenitsu isnt holding back because he struggles to keep up with Kaigaku almost the entirety of the fight. Its also against his character to do so because hes scared of death.

Muzan isn't holding back because we know he has zero patience with bullshit and wants to get away from them and the sun.

Shinobu only got the scale because he himself stated he couldn't see Shinobu when she's on Death Amp. If hes rage baiting or not is a different discussion. Otherwise Douma for that entire arc held back because he gives zero damn.

Again none of this applies to Akaza who is literally superior to Giyu and Tanjiro since the beginning


Akaza didnt beat Giyu when he got tired, he literally beat Giyu up and broke his sword AFTER Akaza said Giyu has shown all his techniques and forms

Akaza didn't bypass his Dead Calm due to Giyu having a broken sword. Giyu HIMSELF stated its because of how insane and carnage Akaza is. The sword had nothing to do with it.


He was holding back. It was meant to mirror what happened in Mugen Train. Thats literally it


By this logic Akaza was using full power because he was trying to kill Tanjiro in Mugen Train when he clearly wasn't using his full power.

Legit a few minutes later Tanjiro is fighting for his life and couldn't really do anything and was being carried by Base Giyu. A single block makes him bleed


so yes he WAS holding back

You keep trying to change my words
Firstly sanemi did not do far different training then muichiro and this is just cant be that much
The only reason i bring up zenitsu doma and muzan , they didnt use their strongest techniques like akaza because you trying yo say akaza wasnt trying because he didnt hse end style
Also even novelazitions says akaza protect giyuus attacks with his all might so he was trying
Other thing is if you read my answers i say akaza wasnt full serious against tanjiro but he very angry at him and wasnt holding back so much
Tanjiro always reacting akazas attacks but he got overpowered by ap
And in the start of marked giyuu vs akaza fight tanjiro stated that giyuu will loose because of fatigue and tiring that giyuu also says the sane thing later.
Akaza already know water breathing forms so he probably adapt them before giyuu

 

[Aytugsss]

It just sounds like you're arguing from incredulity when its made very clear in Infinity Castle that Sanemi is superior to Muichiro in every way possible. Again, Base Sanemi can keep up with Kokushibo and his Danmaku crescent moon spam. Marked Muichiro literally got blitzed and stabbed into a pillar using his own sword from a Kokushibo who wasn't even using a breathing technique. MUICHIRO HIMSELF acknowledges hes the most useless there.





Again Akaza started whooping Giyu only because Giyu showed Akaza all of his techniques. Giyu literally glazes Akaza

He was ALWAYS THIS SUPERIOR. Giyu even started there was a massive power difference between him and Akaza,


Do you understand the concept of getting stronger? Stop applying an entirely different arc to an entirely different arc.

No if sanemi had another time and so different type of training its would be okay
But its never stated that sanemi trained way more than muichiro
And i already kniw sanemi is superior to marked muichiro and this is why i said marks cant do 10x amp

 

[Aytugsss]

Wouldnt this just mean base sanemi is stronger than mark muichiro in the ica?

Yeah he is

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Firstly sanemi did not do far different training then muichiro and this is just cant be that much

We don't even know what the training they did during the couple of months since the entire arc was literally following TANJIRO the entire time. Even then it was made clear it doesnt matter because we LITERALLY see Base Sanemi being superior to Marked Muichiro so stop vibe scaling it.

The only reason i bring up zenitsu doma and muzan , they didnt use their strongest techniques like akaza because you trying yo say akaza wasnt trying because he didnt hse end style

Again. Context clues. The entire narrative plot point is that Akaza is ridiculously strong.

Hes BEEN superior to Tanjiro and Giyu ever since the start of the fight and it was repeatedly hammered that he is. Giyu's OWN WORDS in a different moment even said theres a big power difference between himself and Akaza,

Zenitsu is irrelevant because we see him struggling to keep up with Kaigaku.

Douma is irrelevant because we know he in character HOLDS BACK because he doesnt care at all about whats happening. He literally just left Kanao and Inosuke to play with his mini ice clones.

Also even novelazitions says akaza protect giyuus attacks with his all might so he was trying

Novelization doesn't matter when it contradicts the secondary and primary canon. We literally had a demon slayer Gyutaro calc REJECTED because the novelization CONTRADICTED the anime's portrayal of the fight.

Other thing is if you read my answers i say akaza wasnt full serious against tanjiro but he very angry at him and wasnt holding back so much

Again that is no where NEAR his full power



What's the point of making a CRT if you're going to just keep vibing it out and not addressing the opposition properly. Like again all it was supposed to do was mirror the events of Mugen Train.

Tanjiro always reacting akazas attacks but he got overpowered by ap

Because he HELD BACK. The entire point was to enjoy the fight. Akaza was capable of killing Giyu and Tanjiro at any MOMENT and he chose not to in favor of fighting for fun.

And in the start of marked giyuu vs akaza fight tanjiro stated that giyuu will loose because of fatigue and tiring that giyuu also says the sane thing later.

Yeah it IS a fact that he would lose due to fatigue. HOWEVER, this isnt the case.

Tanjiro stated the same thing against Mitsuri


Her response is that she cant take it anymore

However with Giyu

Even in another panel he calls him too strong and there's a power difference between himself and Akaza

The NARRATIVE PLOTPOINT is that Akaza is too strong for him. He almost died because he was too strong. Thats literally it

Akaza already know water breathing forms so he probably adapt them before giyuu

I dont even know what relevancy this has to anything

No if sanemi had another time and so different type of training its would be okay

Again we don't know what his full training is. We only followed Tanjiro. It also doesnt matter because Base Sanemi is blatantly showed as superior to Marked Muichiro so this entire thing is irrelevant.

But its never stated that sanemi trained way more than muichiro

Read above

And i already kniw sanemi is superior to marked muichiro and this is why i said marks cant do 10x amp

Again stop vibe scaling.

"I stub my pinky toe so it must mean the mark cant be a 10x amp"

Yeah he is

Then theres legit no issue. By your logic them doing the "same training" means they should end up as equal strength, which is CLEARLY not the case meaning your entire argument regarding that is irrelevant here.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

The prime example of this is how a Base Muichiro goes from being manhandled by a casual Gyokko who was mocking Muichiro and constantly getting out speed by him to Marked Muichiro casually perception blitzing statuing a transformed full power Gyokko. Gyokko didn’t even realize Muichiro decapitated him until his head was on the ground. Keep in mind Muichiro is very poisoned with dozens of needles in his body. The mark is indeed a stomp amp.

Tanjiro was also unable to unable to cut Gyutaro’s neck. The same Gyutaro who was poisoned, weakened, and crippled to the ground with the clearest opening ever for a decapitation (straight up downswing slash). The moment Tanjiro gained a mark, he was capable of decapitating a fully recovered Gyutaro.

For more context, wisteria poisoning weakens their durability and he still can’t damage the neck.

I find it incredible that Tanjiro became so strong with DSM that Gyutaro couldn't even remove the scythe from his chin.

Like SCREW the number and multiplier real quick

Yeah he is

Like you agree Base Sanemi is superior to Marked Muichiro but at the same time you disagree with the multiplier because Sanemi cannot be "this much stronger" than Marked Muichiro.

Literally ignore the multiplier and look at how the mark is narratively portrayed. The mark is portrayed as a ridiculous leap in power and is a stomp amp boost.

Even going off of no numbers and only the story. Base Sanemi being stronger than Marked Muichiro STILL MEANS Base Sanemi would STOMP Base Muichiro with no difficulty and that there is a MASSIVE power difference between them during the Infinity Castle arc without even a multiplier. He'd be able to perception blitz and one shot Muichiro.

So whats happening right now is that you're actually going against the story and narrative itself and that you dont like what the story wrote and personally dont believe the story at all.

 

[Epyriel]

Yeah, that's the literal translation of the term, but it being the direct and literal word-for-word, bar-for-bar translation doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct translation; the latter of which is what the blog is claiming. What I am saying is that nothing in the blog has actually deduced that it has to mean order of magnitude here (and by result, justifying the claim that's presented). Without that justification, there's effectively nothing that actually proves the databook said that instead of what the official translation said (or other translations).

The last part matters because the burden of proof is on yall to actually justify it being a 10x amp. This doesn't prove that.

Honestly the statement does seem extremely hyperbolic regardless given how it's presented. But let's say it isn't, right? Just because it's the most used context for that word, and thus the primary definition, that doesn't mean that it's usage proves the meaning here, the context does. And right now, all I'm seeing is context that doesn't necessarily prove this.

Like, I would've granted an amp like this if it said directly that it was 10x, or a statement in the manga corroborating that with similar stuff, as that removes the ambiguity. Hell, I would've granted it if it said 10x horsepower or something but that's not the case here. Since the ambiguity still remains, there's not a solid enough basis to be had here, I'm sorry.

Keta Chigai, with it's other translations, is quantitative in itself and not exclusively qualitative. That's my whole point really; there's nothing that justifies it being a qualitative amp except for assumptions with little to no basis. And I don't actually wanna bother with arguing how Naruto/Bleach's context in their stories grants it that; hencewhy I said that if they used this same line of reasoning, it should be axed for them too.

A mere kanji with several different meanings that are all equally valid (one of which was already said to be so in the blog, once again) doesn't actually prove a claim here.

Translation staff confirming a translation =/= it's the irrefutable correct one. Tons of statements translated by the translation team have been refuted so this doesn't actually mean much. Same thing goes with FinePoint agreeing with it, their agreements doesn't actually prove what I wanted you to prove here.

It can be a stomp amp given that context, that's fine and was never something that was refuted by me personally. However, that being the case doesn't mean it's a 10x one. The translation saying something like "A slayer's combat ability becomes out of one's league" (paraphrasing) is an equally valid translation that would grant it being a stomp amp, but not a 10x one. The number requires more evidence than this.

It isn't, I checked. The consistency section doesn't actually prove it has to be an order of magnitude of a stat difference and the caveat section has a pretty flawed reasoning, which I'll explain below to avoid repetition.

She could've used alot of terms to express a power amp, that's correct indeed. But just because she used this one specifically, that doesn't necessarily mean that Keta Chigai must mean 10x. A multiplier requires far more concrete evidence than this, the multiplier standards themselves dictate that.

Tanjiro hyperbolically claiming a 100x amp on a form he didn't even know existed doesn't necessarily add credence to Gotouge "meaning" to use the term to quantify the amp; that's still an assumption/conclusion from very incomplete information and doesn't actually fly here.

In fact, if yall are arguing that to be authorial intent, that fails because the number that is used in the databook and manga do not line up at all. Unless you guys would be arguing for a 100x multiplier using Keta Chigai; which would then fall under so many inverse problems and inconsistencies with the multiplier standards that it would get axed instantly; this is just a lite version of that scenario.

-
To me, this line of logic just seems like just a number to fall back on because it's a lowball and the kanji maybe would support it, which isn't a strong enough of a stance in my opinion. But hey, I'm just a blue name. Let's have staff weigh in on this.

At this point we have established the most direct translation being a difference of an order of magnitude, gotten a translation member to back it being translated as a being a difference of an order of magnitude, shown feats that match it being a difference in an order of magnitude, and another statement that match it being a difference of an order of magnitude.

At this point the burden of proof has been met.

If you believe an alternative explanation/translation to be more appropriate, at this point you got to show some evidence for such an interpretation being a stronger (or at least a strong enough) contender to shaken the basis of the accepted translation.

And keep in mind, using a qualitative interpretation of a mathematical metaphor like a difference of an order of magnitude is something that is typically reserved for obviously colloquial usage like “hey, the taste of this coffee is a whole order of magnitude above my prior order!” - something that infrequently gets used and is obviously either hyperbolic or inapplicable to the literal meaning of the word, and instead just being lazily substituted to mean “its on a whole other level”.

Here a difference in order of magnitude is used in reference to a stomp gap amp in a databook that is seeking to add details to a core mechanic of the verse’s lore.

Could this be hyperbolic? The feats cast serious doubt on that interpretation as was already covered in the last thread.

Is it just a weird word choice lazily meant to just colloquially and qualitatively mean “on a whole other level”? Not the most natural reading of the text and word choice.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

She could've used alot of terms to express a power amp, that's correct indeed. But just because she used this one specifically, that doesn't necessarily mean that Keta Chigai must mean 10x. A multiplier requires far more concrete evidence than this, the multiplier standards themselves dictate that.

Gonna leave Epyriel to answer the rest (also expect bleach and Naruto supporters to start speaking up here if they don’t want their Keta chigai multipliers to be axed next)

Checked the multiplier standards.

“Multipliers come from a direct statement”
Gotouge guidebok

“Statement must be reliable”
Gotouge

“One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to”
It’s shown to be applied to all stats

“However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents.”

Looks like this requirement is also fulfilled Base Muichiro who was inferior to a casual Gyokko casually stomps a transformed full power Gyokko when Marked while severely poisoned with dozens of spikes in him.

Which one does it not fulfill?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Gonna leave Epyriel to answer the rest (also expect bleach and Naruto supporters to start speaking up here if they don’t want their meta chigai multipliers to be axed next)

Hey guys, Bleach (non)-supporter here I've been following this thread back when it was the incomplete one that got closed, you all are sending way too many messages at once, especially OP

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Hey guys, Bleach (non)-supporter here I've been following this thread back when it was the incomplete one that got closed, you all are sending way too many messages at once, especially OP

Ignoring the OP arguing from incredulity

Your Cero Oscura's multiplier is getting jumped rn

 

[Robo432343]

Someone close ts

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Someone close ts

I am disappointed in the 2 people who were unironically convinced by the OP's argument and agreed to it

(I'm also having trouble keeping up because both the OP proposal and following responses are formatted horribly)

 

[Thermor]

If a topic got rejected for at least 5 times, a discussion rule is warranted correct? Why not let staffs make a decision to reject it so this topic regarding mark multipliers cant be brought up again instead of closing it.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

If a topic got rejected for at least 5 times, a discussion rule is warranted correct? Why not let staffs make a decision to reject it so this topic regarding mark multipliers cant be brought up again instead of closing it.

Because it doesn't qualify yet sadly

Also do you agree or disagree with OP's crt

 

[Robo432343]

If a topic got rejected for at least 5 times, a discussion rule is warranted correct? Why not let staffs make a decision to reject it so this topic regarding mark multipliers cant be brought up again instead of closing it.

tbf the CRT's i have seen regarding this topic are very badly formatted and argued
4 pages and no staff members

 

[Thermor]

Because it doesn't qualify yet sadly

Also do you agree or disagree with OP's crt

Not now but it would contribute to the progress of a discussion rule. If 4 more CRTs are made to downgrade mark multipliers and are all rejected by staffs, a rule can be applied.

Disagree FRA.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

tbf the CRT's i have seen regarding this topic are very badly formatted and argued
4 pages and no staff members

No no no heres a discussion rule we can propose

"Stop creating less than half baked Demon Slayer CRTs"

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah, that's the literal translation of the term, but it being the direct and literal word-for-word, bar-for-bar translation doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct translation; the latter of which is what the blog is claiming. What I am saying is that nothing in the blog has actually deduced that it has to mean order of magnitude here (and by result, justifying the claim that's presented). Without that justification, there's effectively nothing that actually proves the databook said that instead of what the official translation said (or other translations).

The last part matters because the burden of proof is on yall to actually justify it being a 10x amp. This doesn't prove that.

Honestly the statement does seem extremely hyperbolic regardless given how it's presented. But let's say it isn't, right? Just because it's the most used context for that word, and thus the primary definition, that doesn't mean that it's usage proves the meaning here, the context does. And right now, all I'm seeing is context that doesn't necessarily prove this.

Like, I would've granted an amp like this if it said directly that it was 10x, or a statement in the manga corroborating that with similar stuff, as that removes the ambiguity. Hell, I would've granted it if it said 10x horsepower or something but that's not the case here. Since the ambiguity still remains, there's not a solid enough basis to be had here, I'm sorry.

Keta Chigai, with it's other translations, is quantitative in itself and not exclusively qualitative. That's my whole point really; there's nothing that justifies it being a qualitative amp except for assumptions with little to no basis. And I don't actually wanna bother with arguing how Naruto/Bleach's context in their stories grants it that; hencewhy I said that if they used this same line of reasoning, it should be axed for them too.

A mere kanji with several different meanings that are all equally valid (one of which was already said to be so in the blog, once again) doesn't actually prove a claim here.

Translation staff confirming a translation =/= it's the irrefutable correct one. Tons of statements translated by the translation team have been refuted so this doesn't actually mean much. Same thing goes with FinePoint agreeing with it, their agreements doesn't actually prove what I wanted you to prove here.

It can be a stomp amp given that context, that's fine and was never something that was refuted by me personally. However, that being the case doesn't mean it's a 10x one. The translation saying something like "A slayer's combat ability becomes out of one's league" (paraphrasing) is an equally valid translation that would grant it being a stomp amp, but not a 10x one. The number requires more evidence than this.

It isn't, I checked. The consistency section doesn't actually prove it has to be an order of magnitude of a stat difference and the caveat section has a pretty flawed reasoning, which I'll explain below to avoid repetition.

She could've used alot of terms to express a power amp, that's correct indeed. But just because she used this one specifically, that doesn't necessarily mean that Keta Chigai must mean 10x. A multiplier requires far more concrete evidence than this, the multiplier standards themselves dictate that.

Tanjiro hyperbolically claiming a 100x amp on a form he didn't even know existed doesn't necessarily add credence to Gotouge "meaning" to use the term to quantify the amp; that's still an assumption/conclusion from very incomplete information and doesn't actually fly here.

In fact, if yall are arguing that to be authorial intent, that fails because the number that is used in the databook and manga do not line up at all. Unless you guys would be arguing for a 100x multiplier using Keta Chigai; which would then fall under so many inverse problems and inconsistencies with the multiplier standards that it would get axed instantly; this is just a lite version of that scenario.

-
To me, this line of logic just seems like just a number to fall back on because it's a lowball and the kanji maybe would support it, which isn't a strong enough of a stance in my opinion. But hey, I'm just a blue name. Let's have staff weigh in on this.

I agree, it should be 3-4x at the very minimum

All normal humans technically have Subsonic perception, but perception/speed are two different things. But yeah, the speed gap doesn't need to be that much to be a blitz; I'd roughly say 3 or 4 times is the gap required.

Personally, 10x feels too much for me

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

I agree, it should be 3-4x at the very minimum

Personally, 10x feels too much for me

We're using the statement as a minimum estimate, I am being serious when I say there were instances where Tanjiro moved a thousand times faster than his opponents (Who were equal if not a little superior to him before) after getting the mark, and the blitz tier being that is kind of just based on vibes.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

We're using the statement as a minimum estimate, I am being serious when I say there were instances where Tanjiro moved a thousand times faster than his opponents (Who were equal if not a little superior to him before) after getting the mark, and the blitz tier being that is kind of just based on vibes.

No no no. I asked him what he agreed to and its something that @Saqphire didn't even argue.

Edited: We talked and he retracted his vote.

 

[Aytugsss]

We don't even know what the training they did during the couple of months since the entire arc was literally following TANJIRO the entire time. Even then it was made clear it doesnt matter because we LITERALLY see Base Sanemi being superior to Marked Muichiro so stop vibe scaling it.


Again. Context clues. The entire narrative plot point is that Akaza is ridiculously strong.

Hes BEEN superior to Tanjiro and Giyu ever since the start of the fight and it was repeatedly hammered that he is. Giyu's OWN WORDS in a different moment even said theres a big power difference between himself and Akaza,

Zenitsu is irrelevant because we see him struggling to keep up with Kaigaku.

Douma is irrelevant because we know he in character HOLDS BACK because he doesnt care at all about whats happening. He literally just left Kanao and Inosuke to play with his mini ice clones.


Novelization doesn't matter when it contradicts the secondary and primary canon. We literally had a demon slayer Gyutaro calc REJECTED because the novelization CONTRADICTED the anime's portrayal of the fight.


Again that is no where NEAR his full power



What's the point of making a CRT if you're going to just keep vibing it out and not addressing the opposition properly. Like again all it was supposed to do was mirror the events of Mugen Train.


Because he HELD BACK. The entire point was to enjoy the fight. Akaza was capable of killing Giyu and Tanjiro at any MOMENT and he chose not to in favor of fighting for fun.


Yeah it IS a fact that he would lose due to fatigue. HOWEVER, this isnt the case.

Tanjiro stated the same thing against Mitsuri


Her response is that she cant take it anymore

However with Giyu

Even in another panel he calls him too strong and there's a power difference between himself and Akaza

The NARRATIVE PLOTPOINT is that Akaza is too strong for him. He almost died because he was too strong. Thats literally it


I dont even know what relevancy this has to anything


Again we don't know what his full training is. We only followed Tanjiro. It also doesnt matter because Base Sanemi is blatantly showed as superior to Marked Muichiro so this entire thing is irrelevant.


Read above


Again stop vibe scaling.

"I stub my pinky toe so it must mean the mark cant be a 10x amp"


Then theres legit no issue. By your logic them doing the "same training" means they should end up as equal strength, which is CLEARLY not the case meaning your entire argument regarding that is irrelevant here.

There is no way in the demon slayer corp training give 10x power up in a short time there is no excuse for it
Also giyuu talk about the power difference but didnt say anything like he far stronger giyuu says akaza attack with same accurate everytime giyuu attacks and giyuu get weaker every second because of wounds and tiring
And nowhere in fight they say akaza far above giyuu its just akaza show no fatigue and tiring thats why he won

 

[Aytugsss]

Like SCREW the number and multiplier real quick


Like you agree Base Sanemi is superior to Marked Muichiro but at the same time you disagree with the multiplier because Sanemi cannot be "this much stronger" than Marked Muichiro.

Literally ignore the multiplier and look at how the mark is narratively portrayed. The mark is portrayed as a ridiculous leap in power and is a stomp amp boost.

Even going off of no numbers and only the story. Base Sanemi being stronger than Marked Muichiro STILL MEANS Base Sanemi would STOMP Base Muichiro with no difficulty and that there is a MASSIVE power difference between them during the Infinity Castle arc without even a multiplier. He'd be able to perception blitz and one shot Muichiro.

So whats happening right now is that you're actually going against the story and narrative itself and that you dont like what the story wrote and personally dont believe the story at all.

Okay i give up i cant win in this debate
Thank you for answering

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

There is no way in the demon slayer corp training give 10x power up in a short time there is no excuse for it

We dont actually have a timeframe of the entire training arc. However, its believable.

The Demon Slayer Corp fodder members went from actual bums. You know, the ones where dozens of them died on Mount Natagumo to Rui's spider family. They went from dying to fodders to actually killing Lower Moon 1 level demons

Also giyuu talk about the power difference but didnt say anything like he far stronger giyuu says akaza attack with same accurate everytime giyuu attacks and giyuu get weaker every second because of wounds and tiring
And nowhere in fight they say akaza far above giyuu its just akaza show no fatigue and tiring thats why he won

"Hes definitely strong. This man is carnage. This demon is unbelievable. You're kidding me. How did he break my sword"

Like it is true Giyu would ultimately lose due to fatigue in a drag out fight, but this didn't happen. He was genuinely that strong. Also I rewatched the fight. He only had like 3 notable injuries that were non-lethal or lasting.

Okay i give up i cant win in this debate
Thank you for answering

Do you want to close the CRT?

 

[Aytugsss]

We dont actually have a timeframe of the entire training arc. However, its believable.

The Demon Slayer Corp fodder members went from actual bums. You know, the ones where dozens of them died on Mount Natagumo to Rui's spider family. They went from dying to fodders to actually killing Lower Moon 1 level demons




"Hes definitely strong. This man is carnage. This demon is unbelievable. You're kidding me. How did he break my sword"

Like it is true Giyu would ultimately lose due to fatigue in a drag out fight, but this didn't happen. He was genuinely that strong. Also I rewatched the fight. He only had like 3 notable injuries that were non-lethal or lasting.


Do you want to close the CRT?

İ dont actually know how to close but i will try
And where is that stated that the demons at the level of lower 1 level
And im thinking to do another crt later for giyuu obanai and sanemis equality and akazas to

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

İ dont actually know how to close but i will try
And where is that stated that the demons at the level of lower 1 level
And im thinking to do another crt later for giyuu obanai and sanemis equality and akazas to

Ill try asking staff.

Also Gyomei stated the random swarm of demons are all lower moon level in strength. its not stated directly theyre number 1 level but they should be since muzan had a ton of prep time to make them as strong as one considering Muzan’s plan. Its also stated by Muzan that a certain amount of his blood absorbed in a very short amount of time is very bad and can kill them. this would explain why all the lower moon level demons in the castle look really deformed because Muzan made them all lower moon 1 level way above the safe limit.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

And im thinking to do another crt later for giyuu obanai and sanemis equality and akazas to

You dont have to. @Epyriel is going to make a crt where Base Giyu, Base Sanemi, Base Obanai, and Infinity Castle Tanjiro will scale the same speed.

Akaza will scale above Marked Giyu

Marked Sanemi will also get a “near death amp” power boost that scales way above Akaza into Kokushibo tier. This is due to Kokushibo stating Sanemi is rapidly getting stronger and faster in near death.

 

[Mbpoops]

I agree, it should be 3-4x at the very minimum

Personally, 10x feels too much for me

Pretty sure it was already explained we cant just give a random multiplier

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Okay i give up i cant win in this debate
Thank you for answering

Lock this thread then?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

İ dont actually know how to close but i will try

@TWILIGHT-OP