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Delta's "rays of light" CRT (Boruto)

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Delta's destructive beams are treated as Speed of Light on the Wiki, which has lead to Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto becoming FTL through these calculations.

In a previous thread on the topic, it was agreed that her beams were real lasers because they were described as "light" and came from a technological source (i.e., her eye). There have also been arguments that her laser beams scale to the likes of a state-of-the-art photon weapon, the Maxima Laser, described in Naruto Retsuden.

Let's discuss.

Argument #1

The technology used by Delta to make the light beams are the same used to make the photon gun laser except much more advanced because Kara tech > any other place with tech. And whatever is produced by tech is real and not chakra based.
The technology from Kara is way more advanced Damage. That's that. Konoha science lead already considers Kara technology advanced
Yes, Amado is able to create technological advances that not even the head of the Scientific Ninja Weapons Team, Katasuke Tōno, could comprehend, yet alone replicate. Amado is a genius in a league of his own, and that point is made blatantly obvious to the reader. With that being said, though, this does not mean that Delta's lasers are a more advanced version of the photon weapon. To assume that is actually stupid.

The description of the Maxima Laser from Naruto Retsuden's prologue goes as follows:

雇い主から支給された、最新鋭の光子銃(フォトンガン)――四十万ワットの高出力光線(マキシマ・レーザー)を放出して、遠距離から敵を攻撃するための武器だ。レーザーの高熱は細胞から細胞へと瞬時に伝わるため、髪の先をかすっただけでも数分のうちに全身が高温になり、内側から破裂する。

"A cutting-edge photon gun provided by the employer. This weapon releases a high output 400,000 watt beam (maxima laser) meant to shoot an enemy from afar. Because the heat from the beam instantly transfers itself from cell to cell, even if it as much as grazes the end of your hair your entire body will heat up within minutes and burst from the inside."
From what we can gather:
  • It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
  • It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.
Along with that, the Maxima Laser's most notable attribute would be its high output, 400,000 watt laser, which can incinerate a target's entire body from the inside, even if the laser were to simply graze you. Not only is this a laser with the qualities of real lasers, it has unparalleled destructive potential because of how heat from the laser travels amongst cells, with a mere touch being enough to completely destroy someone's body.

However, Delta's lasers are not even remotely similar. When Kawaki shielded Naruto and Himawari from her laser beam and the blast exploded, it took his arm, and he could no longer regenerate his wound. However, his body was not incinerated as would be the case with the Maxima Laser. And don't play the, "He didn't want Delta to have such a powerful weapon, so he took away that part of the laser" card. If that were the case, why base it off the Maxima Laser in the first place? The whole selling point of that photon gun is the fact that it is extremely deadly due to the heat spreading like a wildfire through the target's body and killing them from the inside.

To base a weapon off of the Maxima Laser and remove its most notable attribute for the sake of wanting a weaker weapon is idiotic, considering Delta's lasers were already designed to counter regeneration by destroy targets on a cellular level. doesn't incinerate though It makes no sense.

Moving on.

Argument #2

What do you want more from Delta's beams?

  • They go straight
  • Called beam of light
  • Delta is a scientific tool, and those tools use photons to attack.
The main points for them being lasers is being technology based rather than being made of magic or spirit energy, them being described as photons, them firing in strait lines unaffected by gravity, and them having similar animations to various lasers described as light speed. And the only real argument against them not being lasers is them exploding upon impact, and them damaging targets. But they don't have to be laser pointers that give 0 damage to be considered real lasers.
Yes, Delta's eye are specially crafted Scientific Ninja Tools, so they fit the bill of "technology based".
Here the problem with arguing that, though:

  1. That same specially crafted eye can both absorb and redirect Chakra, as seen with Naruto's Rasengan.
  2. Her lasers burn through her Chakra.
  3. The lasers explode which is not very laser-like (get it? like, lady-like).
  4. The lasers are not even beams 100% of the time and can be dispersed by a greater Chakra.
Even if we do give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that her lasers fit the criteria of "It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera", that is not enough to qualify for lightspeed. They travel in a straight line, yes, but that's not a qualifier. That's just a precaution. However, her lasers violate the "The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror" criteria by exploding.

The argument that her lasers also fit the "It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source" criteria because Kawaki used the term "ray of light" in a scanlation is not enough. The criteria says "composed/consisting of ... light itself", and "ray of light" is not the same as "ray made of light".

Her lasers just do not hit enough check marks to be considered a "real laser" and thus lightspeed, which renders those calculations mentioned earlier null and void.

Conclusions

Of course, I'm not saying that Naruto can't be FTL. You could probably find some feats to back up his rating somewhere, but scaling to Delta's lasers isn't it.
 
The counter-arguments given in the OP against the initial arguments for why the beams were accepted seem convincing so far.
 
I’ve always had inhibitions about Deltas’ beams being light, though it doesn’t change much for speed scaling the verse, I’d be content with this reasoning being removed.

So, I agree FRA.
 
I’ve always had inhibitions about Deltas’ beams being light, though it doesn’t change much for speed scaling the verse, I’d be content with this reasoning being removed.
All the god tiers that are FTL get bumped to Rel
 
redgrave on discord translated kawaki's statement as such:

Borito: 何だ今の。。。!

とんでもね威力だってばさ!

Delta: あの攻撃。。。ヤバイのは威力だけじゃあない。

Borito: え?

Delta: 対再生能力用開発された破壊光線だ。。。

食らった部位は細胞が死滅し崩れ去る。。。

オレの体や火影の再生力をもってしても治せないだろう。

Boruto そんな。。。

Eng:

Boruto: What the hell was that?

It's ridiculously powerful!

Kawaki: That attack... It's not just the power that's bad.

Boruto: What?

Kawaki: It's a destructive ray that has anti-regenerative abilities...

The cells in the affected area will die and collapse...

Even my body and the Hokage's regenerative power won't be able to heal it.

Boruto: Oh no...
 
*At least Rel, likely FTL

Delta wasn’t the only FTL feat, base Naruto had one in the novels as well.
Base Naruto dodged a laser, which albiet a good feat, is too vague to be called FTL.

Not all light reacting or dodging feats are FTL, which is why the current Rel value is based off of a lightspeed feat (the transportation jutsu), but it got calced to rel.
 
759d7be68b7c2057481f475f464c1c09f6a0139f_s2_n2.jpg


got the full scan
 


I advise everybody who is involved in this CRT to please read this thread.

This is a very controversial topic that affects a large number of characters.

The physical matter argument, which is the only one I hadn't touched on, really only applies to Boro. Kawaki never stated that everything that Kara utilizes some form of physical matter (and even then, light is not physical matter, if I recall correctly), and the only example of them using physical matter is Boro's virus. As stated above, Delta's lasers come from the same eyes that can absorb and discharge Chakra, her lasers burn through her Chakra, her lasers explode, and her lasers can be dispersed by a larger Chakra, which all point to it being energy, specifically Chakra.

Scientific Ninja Tools being capable of generating Chakra and/or being powered by the user's Chakra is not unheard of, considering the Shinobi Gauntlet allows one to utilize the Ninjutsu of others, and the Chakra Blade powers itself by feeding on the user's energy.
 
Im really disappointed to Downgrading God tier to rel+.
Yes, Delta's eye are specially crafted Scientific Ninja Tools, so they fit the bill of "technology based".
Here the problem with arguing that, though:

  1. That same specially crafted eye can both absorb and redirect Chakra, as seen with Naruto's Rasengan.
  2. Her lasers burn through her Chakra.
  3. The lasers explode which is not very laser-like (get it? like, lady-like).
  4. The lasers are not even beams 100% of the time and can be dispersed by a greater Chakra.
Even if we do give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that her lasers fit the criteria of "It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera", that is not enough to qualify for lightspeed. They travel in a straight line, yes, but that's not a qualifier. That's just a precaution. However, her lasers violate the "The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror" criteria by exploding.
But this is make sense.

We need more backup rather than Assuming" Made by same technology as Maxima Laser " Or just mentioned to be light ray.

Agree with the OP
 
redgrave on discord translated kawaki's statement as such:

Borito: 何だ今の。。。!

とんでもね威力だってばさ!

Delta: あの攻撃。。。ヤバイのは威力だけじゃあない。

Borito: え?

Delta: 対再生能力用開発された破壊光線だ。。。

食らった部位は細胞が死滅し崩れ去る。。。

オレの体や火影の再生力をもってしても治せないだろう。

Boruto そんな。。。

Eng:

Boruto: What the hell was that?

It's ridiculously powerful!

Kawaki: That attack... It's not just the power that's bad.

Boruto: What?

Kawaki: It's a destructive ray that has anti-regenerative abilities...

The cells in the affected area will die and collapse...

Even my body and the Hokage's regenerative power won't be able to heal it.

Boruto: Oh no...
The issue that can/will be brought up by this.

The definition of 光線 means 3 things.
Beam, Ray, Ray of Light.

The "beam" translation is consistent in 2 official sources.
Manga, and anime.
(Personally I hate Viz, but when other translations agree, then it's valid).

The OP in the original thread translated only the specific Kanji, which brought out "Ray of Light", which is (by definition) a beam (google the definition of beam).
But if you translate the entire sentence, you get this.
It is a destructive ray developed for anti-regenerative abilities.
Or beam, but it rarely specifies the "light" portion.

So tbh, I agree with the OP.

So I guess the translation of the specific kanji by itself brought out the "ray of light" portion, which is understood.

So either we downgrade em to rel, or we find new feats.

can we wait till the translation?
I second this. We should wait
 
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considering we have two conflicting ones (original that said light and red's that doesnt even mention light) i would like a third opinion from qliphoth.
 
You would, doesn't mean we would like a third opinion. We already got the kanjis.
 
How so? Naruto did not know that the attack was coming and only moved after Madara fired it; the anime makes this clear. And you'd think if Naruto moved before the attack was fired, he would have been able to save his staff.
 
How so? Naruto did not know that the attack was coming and only moved after Madara fired it; the anime makes this clear. And you'd think if Naruto moved before the attack was fired, he would have been able to save his staff.
Create a thread for that. You'll have a lot of support.
 
Here the problem with arguing that, though:
  1. That same specially crafted eye can both absorb and redirect Chakra, as seen with Naruto's Rasengan.
Okay not exactly an argument and how does this disprove it been light speed?
Okay her mechanical parts need a form.of energy to work which will be what?
Please answer that
  1. The lasers explode which is not very laser-like (get it? like, lady-like).
I dont get it, lasers in fiction explodes all the time and there are many examples even the photons in naruto retsuden ******* exploded lmao
it doesn't really mean anything

You are honestly grasping for straw,

Naruto that is unable to manipulate chakra and on light support has rel feat, but one that is at least 20 times faster if not a 100 times will have trouble dodging something not Light speed??

And yes I know clowns are about to come and say sosp naruto is not 20 times faster than a naruto that is even way weaker than his base self, honestly you are a clown if you think that and you need a circus.
Sick naruto <<<<<<< base naruto<<<< kcm naruto <<<<<<<bsm naruto <<<<<<< sosp naruto.

Anyway sorry for the a bit harsh tone to those I'm.not referring to, but if I'm referring to you (thinking sosp naruto is not far faster than a sick one unable to manipulate chakra) I'm not sorry
 
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Focusing on this thread specifically, which characters specific justifications will need rewriting?
 
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